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Degradation of SUPT


Merle Dixon

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Not UPT but I heard rumor of some contract fliers at KRND for IFF

There are contract civilians teaching in the IFF squadron, but not the contracted out UPT referenced above. The IFF guys are previous fighter IPs and function in the IFF squadron like a normal IP, just with beards and/or long hair.
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Contractors have been flying with IFF at Columbus for at least a year now. Most were former 49th IPs who either retired or separated and just put on the tan bag and grew a beard. 
 

Last I’d heard, the idea of a contractor gig on the UPT side has pretty much died in the water…I guess 19th still thinks “we got this!” 🙄

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I may be incorrect but I believe these pilots are Civil Service employees, not contractors. 
How it works is a squadron converts a military IP slot to civilian.  It is advertised on USAjobs, interview, and selection. 

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3 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

I may be incorrect but I believe these pilots are Civil Service employees, not contractors. 
How it works is a squadron converts a military IP slot to civilian.  It is advertised on USAjobs, interview, and selection. 

That’s technically correct, actually. “Contractor” is a loose term…I’m still learning about the civilian side of DoD employment. 

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2 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

That’s technically correct, actually. “Contractor” is a loose term…I’m still learning about the civilian side of DoD employment. 

Not really, you’re either Civil Service/NAF or you’re a contractor.

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On 5/8/2021 at 8:21 AM, HuggyU2 said:

I may be incorrect but I believe these pilots are Civil Service employees, not contractors. 
How it works is a squadron converts a military IP slot to civilian.  It is advertised on USAjobs, interview, and selection. 

They are GS-2181-13s, so civil service yea.

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  • 2 months later...
3 hours ago, brabus said:

Smoke and mirrors. They are essentially just executing phase 3, but with wings. I don’t understand how this changes anything, except maybe gets them a form 8 earlier so the MAF bound guys can be softened up to Q3s and re-quals earlier in their career. 

They're looking at "seasoning" options to "produce" more after wings too. Totally just fluffing the heck out of everything - aka smoke amd mirrors, but you can see we're running out of options

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I saw the data and UPT 2.5 looks fine. Winging after the T-6…whatever.

“But that’s not how I did it!!”

I was a UPT IP when fix to fixes went away…the uproar…but we survived.

And for data, I have 2x relatives who got wings after original 169kt T-6’s and went on to fly 10,000k hours in everything from prop and jet bombers to Mach 2 fighters.

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Anybody in the know: What’s the stated purpose of winging after phase II if they’re just going to complete phase III? 
 

The optimist in me thinks there must be a reason… right? Right?

Does the training commitment still start post-winging? If so we’re buying 4-6 fewer useful months of indentured servitude. If not, this is (on its face at least) a long-term stupid-button solution for boosting 11X numbers on paper.

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How many aircraft did we lose back then? What were the accident rates?

I’ll wait...

Plenty, because planes were less safe and tougher to fly.

What point are you trying to get at?

I’ve flown with kids whose 1st solo in a jet is in the b course.

Time to advance the way we train.

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10 hours ago, jice said:

Anybody in the know: What’s the stated purpose of winging after phase II if they’re just going to complete phase III? 
 

The optimist in me thinks there must be a reason… right? Right?

Does the training commitment still start post-winging? If so we’re buying 4-6 fewer useful months of indentured servitude. If not, this is (on its face at least) a long-term stupid-button solution for boosting 11X numbers on paper.

Makes it a lot harder to fail them out of Phase III. Turns It from a commander's decision and a handshake into an FEB.

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11 hours ago, jice said:

Anybody in the know: What’s the stated purpose of winging after phase II if they’re just going to complete phase III? 
 

The optimist in me thinks there must be a reason… right? Right?

Does the training commitment still start post-winging? If so we’re buying 4-6 fewer useful months of indentured servitude. If not, this is (on its face at least) a long-term stupid-button solution for boosting 11X numbers on paper.

Simple, one high ranking bob gets to tell another high ranking bob that we are making pilots 4 months faster!  Problem solved.

And we all know the staff doesn't think about problems 10 years from now, let alone next week.

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3 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

UPT 2.5 grads at RND is not going to a full phase 3.  The “T-1/heavy tracked” students get 6 weeks of T-1 sims/VR and off to the FTUs they go.  I think Vance 2.5 grads are actually flying the T-1, but I forget how much time they get.

Most recent iteration of the syllabus has 42.8 hrs programmed in the jet.

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15 hours ago, di1630 said:

I saw the data and UPT 2.5 looks fine. Winging after the T-6…whatever.

“But that’s not how I did it!!”

I was a UPT IP when fix to fixes went away…the uproar…but we survived.

And for data, I have 2x relatives who got wings after original 169kt T-6’s and went on to fly 10,000k hours in everything from prop and jet bombers to Mach 2 fighters.

Just out of curiosity, are you currently in an ops squadron directly seeing the current UPT product ?  

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Plenty, because planes were less safe and tougher to fly.

What point are you trying to get at?

I’ve flown with kids whose 1st solo in a jet is in the b course.

Time to advance the way we train.



Were they tougher to fly or did we not train the crews well enough? Some of the same KC-135s I flew were probably flown by friends of your ancestors.

My point or my rebuttal to your post is that, just because Grandpa flew the original T-6 and was just fine, there were probably a lot of others that weren’t and we lost a lot of aircraft back then.

Were they less safe? Maybe. Were we pumping out pilots at a breakneck pace to keep up with a Cold War threat? Yes. Was the training adequate? Maybe. Were the planes “harder to fly” back then or are they easier to fly now? I don’t know. I flew with a crew in a C-130H1 last month. So that level of technology still exists in 2021.

Evolution of training...I’m all for it. I’m glad we don’t do fix to fixes anymore. But, we can’t get ahead of ourselves and I think we are still in the data collection phase.
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