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Degradation of SUPT


Merle Dixon

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Flying student sorties twice a day (if not 3) every day is far from a break. If you could hear some of the “you owe me” type of talk given to UPT IPs, you’d wish JPQ still gave a shit.

We lost when we pulled decision making up to the level intended to supervise. Squadron Commanders don’t even know how to be Squadron Commanders anymore...they’ve already hit the ELP-less FAIP stage.

If you ask me, let a Flt/CC waive the syllabus and just inform the DO. Shit is stupid now...

~Bendy

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Not sure if this was brought up earlier in this thread but what about Contractor / Dept of AF Civilian flight instructors?

I believe the AF is using them for the CAA A-29 program (contractor I think) so why not a limited program (3 years) to get out of the hole without burning out another cohort of the rated force?

If not enough military IPs then civillian IPs?  Thinking recently retired or separated but not ruling out CFIIs necessarily. 

Sidebar question:  Can the total amount of resources available to train SUPT studs handle all this?  Aircraft, Sims, MOAs, MX, etc... or is it all tapped out?  Never put it past the Bobs to try to put 10 lbs of excrement into a 5 lbs bucket... that would lead to opening another SUPT base but if the need is there then it is there.

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How many dudes are actually flying 3 student sorties a day at CBM? Even for those I know that fly a lot, that seems to rarely happen, even before the Mx changeover. Are the new MSIs doing a sim and two student sorties now? 


Oh, the exception to the norm, no doubt...but 3 events a day is not uncommon at all (particularly for a FAIP). 2 sorties is the expectation (at least at CBM)...to the extent that if you take too much leave, they expect the triple turn to “make up your increment”.

With the MX issues, yeah...probably couldn’t fly 3 times in a day if you tried. It’s pretty bad (not to mention scheduling shenanigans).

As for MSIs, it’s fairly bad in general, but if your at CBM, you’ll have to wait for the MX issues to pass and summer to roll around again before we can understand how bad it really is.

Personally, I flew 3 times in a day once...I’m good now.

Either way, I don’t think these guys/gals are escaping too much being in AETC. There is something to be said about going home every night...even if you show at all weird hours and work 11-12 hours a day, everyday. Toss in a deployment threat and most would just take a pass over volunteering, I’d think.

~Bendy
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19 minutes ago, JRBac said:

How many dudes are actually flying 3 student sorties a day at CBM? Even for those I know that fly a lot, that seems to rarely happen, even before the Mx changeover. Are the new MSIs doing a sim and two student sorties now? 

I’m not at CBM, but triple turning isn’t a regular thing at DLF. Still, I’m surprised at how tired I am at this assignment. Coming from AMC I thought it would be a chance to take a breather and have a regular schedule, maybe actually get a decent amount of sleep. When I was just a line flyer gaining experience my first year, it was crushing. Show at 7 o’clock, brief, fly, land and debrief by 11:40. Phone a food order in somewhere on base so I can eat during my next briefing. Brief, fly, land and debrief by 1600. GK the studs, do the two gradesheets from earlier, and then finally have an hour to take care of real world problems before I have to go home so I have crew rest for the next day. 

Now as a flight commander it’s busier. I get excited when the next day’s show is more than 12 hours after the current day’s show, because it means I can have some peace and quiet during the 13th hour of the day to get my office work done and still be legal to fly the following morning. Now multiply that by 5 days a week, all month, all year, with the occasional 12 day work week because you took your students cross country. 

Edited by zachbar
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23 minutes ago, zachbar said:

I’m not at CBM, but triple turning isn’t a regular thing at DLF. Still, I’m surprised at how tired I am at this assignment. Coming from AMC I thought it would be a chance to take a breather and have a regular schedule, maybe actually get a decent amount of sleep. When I was just a line flyer gaining experience my first year, it was crushing. Show at 7 o’clock, brief, fly, land and debrief by 11:40. Phone a food order in somewhere on base so I can eat during my next briefing. Brief, fly, land and debrief by 1600. GK the studs, do the two gradesheets from earlier, and then finally have an hour to take care of real world problems before I have to go home so I have crew rest for the next day. 

Now as a flight commander it’s busier. I get excited when the next day’s show is more than 12 hours after the current day’s show, because it means I can have some peace and quiet during the 13th hour of the day to get my office work done and still be legal to fly the following morning. Now multiply that by 5 days a week, all month, all year, with the occasional 12 day work week because you took your students cross country. 

Those that think AETC is a cakewalk assignment, never taught in AETC. I worked much harder instructing in AETC, day-to-day, than I ever did in AMC. I just dealt with way more knee jerk reaction that would fuck up your scheduled day events in AMC. 

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Yep. I am one of those guys. Flew 38s and got caught up in some of the worst drops since the bank happened. Some of my buddies never flew a manned USAF aircraft after pilot training. Still an awesome career path but don’t have high expectations and you won’t be disappointed.


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Do you think Big Blue will actually go through with that AETC memo about taking pilot slots? Should we prepare for disappointment? Cadre at our ROTC Detachment keep saying “ignore it”

FYSA - December 2019 Commission -> Vance June 2020


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6 hours ago, Walkerdubs said:

Do you think Big Blue will actually go through with that AETC memo about taking pilot slots? Should we prepare for disappointment? Cadre at our ROTC Detachment keep saying “ignore it”

FYSA - December 2019 Commission -> Vance June 2020


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I am surprised management at your detachment is so detached from reality. I just heard that CBM is going to send some T-38 students to Sheppard. CBMs maintenance problems have crushed their ability to train T-38 students. So, yes, I think big blue will reduce UPT slots. And please, while working for big blue falcon, always, ALWAYS “prepare for disappointment.” 

Edited by Merle Dixon
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12 hours ago, Walkerdubs said:

 


Do you think Big Blue will actually go through with that AETC memo about taking pilot slots? Should we prepare for disappointment? Cadre at our ROTC Detachment keep saying “ignore it”

FYSA - December 2019 Commission -> Vance June 2020


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

 

Things to do:

1. Start searching for ANG/AFRC flying units you’d like to be apart of.

2. Get in writing from your cadre that the AETC memo is false (they won’t).

3. Read every thread on this forum about the current state of the Air Force and make your own judgement.

Good luck

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  • 1 month later...

Rumor has it a “Innovation Syllabus” is in its final stretch to reaching the 19AF this month. From what I’ve heard so far it will increase T-6 sorties for T-1s and hold for T-38s...single track perhaps. All kinds of flashy VR and 360 Video included to augment the training...rather than replace.

I mean, it was already into the bone with OBOGS. Maybe they can at least get back to the skin if more sorties aren’t cut.

Moles in place...stand by for more!

~Bendy

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1 hour ago, Bender said:

Rumor has it a “Innovation Syllabus” is in its final stretch to reaching the 19AF this month. From what I’ve heard so far it will increase T-6 sorties for T-1s and hold for T-38s...single track perhaps. All kinds of flashy VR and 360 Video included to augment the training...rather than replace.

I mean, it was already into the bone with OBOGS. Maybe they can at least get back to the skin if more sorties aren’t cut.

Moles in place...stand by for more!

~Bendy

It’s the UPT 2.5 syllabus that will be executed at Randolph. It’s not particularly a secret

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It’s the UPT 2.5 syllabus that will be executed at Randolph. It’s not particularly a secret


Oh, I didn’t realize it was common knowledge. Can you share more about what’s going on?

Once RND gets done with it, my understanding is it’s supposed to hit everyone in the face.

Thought it would be of interest...maybe you know more than me.

Let us know what’s up.

~Bendy
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  • 2 weeks later...
2 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

Dont have one, the Bobs are still debating over what it will be.

I’ve been reading through a draft in order to provide comments to be sent up the chain, and I find myself scratching my head a lot. I don’t want to disparage the people who worked very hard on it, because I have good friends at the other bases. The effort was well intentioned, but syllabus 2.5 seems overly optimistic and grasping for anything and everything “innovative.” The new syllabus concepts also seems to have been tested in a vacuum, primarily because the class that provided the lessons learned for it was part of a separate innovation flight apart from the rest of the flying squadrons. No washbacks or forwards, no inbound baby class pressuring the timeline, no brand new FAIP development to worry about, etc. I question it’s ability to succeed in the real world. 

My big problem with what we have been doing in UPT isn’t that 19AF wants to innovate, it’s how we do it. We changed every variable a year ago with the new syllabus starting with 19-20, and we changed the way we rate what is successful and what is not. That’s not an experiment. That’s desperate thrashing. How do I know what new concept works and what doesn’t if everything changed at the same time and if I don’t have a control to compare it against? We’re also doing the equivalent of jerking ourselves off here in 19AF because we define our own success. As far as I know there isn’t an official channel to interface with follow on training, and there isn’t an official forum for them to define what they want from a UPT graduate.

What stood out to me is that syllabus 2.5 increases the flying time slightly over the current “new” syllabus. That’s awesome! But...if we are nearing the same amount of hours as the proven legacy syllabus, this entire last year and a half was a waste. We should have used something like PTN to vette isolated, innovative ideas to be rolled into the syllabus in an incremental and controlled manner. Instead we have an entire generation of pilots who were screwed by AETC, received worse training, and are less qualified graduates. I’ll look every one of them in the eye and tell that to their faces when I go back to my MWS because they deserve to know it and also because I’ll be stuck with the results when I’m on a crew with them. 
 

*rant over*

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8 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

People in AMC training (at the MAJCOM level) are of the opinion that the product coming out of UPT is not quality for MAF operations. It probably doesn’t help that 19 AF is of the opinion that UPT Phase III can be taught in much larger more expensive airframes.


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Well, AMC better be ready for in the next decade:

1. Pilots that only fly the T-6

2. Pilots that fly the T-6 and minimal T-7

or

3. Pilots that only fly the T-6 and sim in legacy T-1 sims for Phase III top off

 

 

On another note, 2.5 is only supposed to be producing T-38 trained pilots. 

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11 hours ago, zachbar said:

As far as I know there isn’t an official channel to interface with follow on training, and there isn’t an official forum for them to define what they want from a UPT graduate.

AETC is holding a realistic training review board this summer.  Hopefully there is some crosstalk there.

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