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7 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

  I don’t want to turn someone down while waiting for a call from a top pick...

You're shitting me, right?

If you get an interview offer from one of the Big 6, you take it.

 

 

Edited by HuggyU2
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10 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Gents, I’m one year out from terminal/available date.  Been reading the various forums and building my SA.  Cargo seems like the best fit for my life circumstances, but appears  difficult to land.  Should I just blast applications to everyone ASAP or is it worth trying for my top picks first?  I don’t want to turn someone down while waiting for a call from a top pick, only to not be selected and have passed on my lower ranked choices.

As guys are saying here: Blast to all.  Take the first one you get, then get picky.  As a mil guy, you need to do one important thing: FLUSH the concept loyalty-based transactional employment.  The military actually drills this into us, and we don't realize it.  Yes, be loyal to your union and company, but in the end, it's all about the Benjamins.  They'd furlough you, so don't feel bad about "wasting a training seat" or some such.  Be civil about it if you need to drop out of a class, but don't sweat it either.

Speaking to cargo. Yes, it's AWESOME.  You'll fly nights, but it's not really that bad, and the pay is worth the disrupted sleep cycle.  (by contrast many of those pax pilots are striving to get on a widebody...where you fly lots of overseas nights) Not dealing with pax is completely worth it.  Don't buy the hype that cargo is a difficult one to land.  If you're specifically looking at UPS or FedEx, yes the process isn't as simple as the pax carriers...but it's not rocket surgery and it's completely worth it.

No one knows how UPS hires.  Fill out the app and keep updating, it's an exercise in patience. 

FedEx still has the kick-in-the-shins 2-day interview process from hell. Oh yeah, and update that app every 2 weeks and start as far out (over a year is good) as you can.  

Both are excellent companies with outstanding pilot groups where you'll want to spend your career.  It's the best part-time job in the world.  

Last bit: Don't be afraid to spend time at a last choice airline.  I separated at 17 years while 3 years non-current, joined the reserves and a not-first-choice airline where I worked for a year.  It got me a type rating that probably led to getting hired by my top choice.  Experience is experience and it helps you get hired.

4 hours ago, Prozac said:

I know guys who have left airline X while in training or IOE when their #1 choice called. It’s just business. Any of the majors wouldn’t hesitate to furlough you if it positively impacted their bottom line. I see this kind of action as returning the favor. Absolutely dance with the first girl who says yes, but if a prettier one suddenly becomes available, follow your instincts. 

That's happening a lot these days.  I'm in training now at my second 121 carrier.  We had several people no-show the training, and one guy quit training halfway through to go to another carrier...this is at a top-end company mind you.  I saw that happen in both of the 121 training pipelines.  It happens all the time.  I've personally hear of guys no-showing to training (by taking a different job) at Delta, United, America, UPS, and FedEx.

PM me if you want more specifics.  I spent the last four years giving this whole process a very hard stare, so it's fresh.

Edited by FourFans130
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8 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

You're shitting me, right?

If you get an interview offer from one of the Big 6, you take it.

 

 

Are you saying I should limit my applications to the big 6?  I’m confused by this; I was planning to apply to multiple companies but rank ordered.

copy all advice from others, thanks.

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Misunderstanding on my part it seems.  Yes, certainly apply to more than just the Big 6 if you're willing to go there.  Even if uncertain you want to work for a Regional, consider applying because you will likely get called ASAP, and the interview experience could be helpful.

What got my attention was your statement that you would turn someone down while waiting for a better option.  I don't believe you should do that.  If a company offers you a job after your interview, continue down the path with them.  You might get trained and fly for them for a few months... and then lo and behold, a better option is offered to you.  Now you can make your decision. 

I know plenty of people recently that were given a job offer... accepted it... and before they even showed up for training, they got another job offer from a company higher on their list.  

Bottom line:  many here will tell you not to turn down an offer.  I believe that is good advice.  Better to have a paycheck rolling in while you continue to strive for a better job with better wages and working conditions.  Turning down choices # 5, and 6 and staying unemployed while you wait for choice #1 will not earn you the sympathy of your colleagues.  Nor your wife.  

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12 hours ago, Guardian said:

Then why do civilian pilots get so mad when people drop long term mil leave?

 

11 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

 Because they can't. And they perceive it as a good deal. 

People who finish indoc, then drop five years of mil leave for AGR orders they'd long been engineering, before starting fleet training. Then they come back on 6th year pay, 11 months left of probation, having never turned a wheel for the company, but with a good 401k balance. They give it a bad reputation. 

Or the guys who use mil leave just to enhance their schedule, then brag about it at work. They also give it a bad reputation. 

So it's not surprising that some civilian pilots take a dim view of the mil leave process. 

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1 hour ago, Waingro said:

So it's not surprising that some civilian pilots take a dim view of the mil leave process. 

Military pilots that aren't discrete about dropping mil leave need to grow up and be adults.  But it comes down to educating civilian background pilots that are ignorant of the overall situation.  

Today... with the exception of some Guardsmen/Reservists... the vast majority of military pilots are unable to get started with an airline before the age of 33.  Civilian pilots get hired up to 10 years younger than that.  

Those complaining civilian pilots... and by my observations, they are a very small group... need to stop and look at the top 5% of the seniority list at the major airlines.  A disproportionately tiny percentage of those pilots are military background... e.g. nearly all of the most senior pilots are from civilian backgrounds. Are the military pilots being cheated?  Uh, no.  But the nature or the beast is such that seniority lists favor civilian backgrounds.  

When these complaining civilians were hired at age 23-31, many said they "hit the lottery" by getting hired at their dream airline.  So I ask them, "Why do you care if a pilot goes on mil leave?  Military pilots taking 5 years of leave doesn't negatively affect you."

     - If they're senior to you, it's one less person to bid against for trips and vacation for 5 years. 

     - And if they are junior to you, what do you care?  They're junior to you... so is there a problem??

My bud just got hired by UAL less than a year ago.  He's 49.  Last week, I was on the jumpseat of a 777 and the captain was 50.  I looked him up and he was hired at age 23.  When he retires, he will be the #3 pilot at United.  Two guys nearly the same age.  But how do you think their wages and QOL potential will compare to each other in the year 2025?   

Each path (civ and mil) to the airlines has its pros and cons.  Once you're there, work hard to maximize your QOL based on your circumstances.  The seniority list is set in stone.  And USERRA is a law.  So control what you can, and don't be the miserable SOB that no one likes to fly with because someone else "got a better deal".  

 

Edited by HuggyU2
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I’m approaching my UPT ADSC and have relatively low hours (IP, 700 PIC/2000 total) compared to my MAF peers. When I browse through other airline forums, 1000 PIC/3000 total seems to be the delineator for the majors (pre-COVID). I understand many other factors are involved with the hiring process. However, with the renewed hiring surge, are there folks getting hired with less hours than before?

If I join a regional and separate from AD (no guard/reserve) will this increase my chances of progressing to a major, even if I no longer gain PIC hours? Or should I stay on AD until I hit 1000 PIC? What can I do now to round out my resume (masters, EP, SE, etc)? 

My spouse is AD is well (with kids), so a potential double commute to a reserve/guard base may stress the family too much. 

 

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1 hour ago, HuggyU2 said:

Misunderstanding on my part it seems.  

What got my attention was your statement that you would turn someone down while waiting for a better option.  I don't believe you should do that.  If a company offers you a job after your interview, continue down the path with them.  You might get trained and fly for them for a few months... and then lo and behold, a better option is offered to you.  Now you can make your decision. 

Maybe I could have phrased myself better, I’m probably missing something about the career if you assumed I was arrogant instead of curious.  Four fans nailed it with the loyalty discussion.  I didn’t realize how easy/normal it was to accept a job and then move along if a preferred option opens up.  

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28 minutes ago, Newb said:

I’m approaching my UPT ADSC and have relatively low hours (IP, 700 PIC/2000 total) compared to my MAF peers. When I browse through other airline forums, 1000 PIC/3000 total seems to be the delineator for the majors (pre-COVID). I understand many other factors are involved with the hiring process. However, with the renewed hiring surge, are there folks getting hired with less hours than before?

If I join a regional and separate from AD (no guard/reserve) will this increase my chances of progressing to a major, even if I no longer gain PIC hours? Or should I stay on AD until I hit 1000 PIC? What can I do now to round out my resume (masters, EP, SE, etc)? 

My spouse is AD is well (with kids), so a potential double commute to a reserve/guard base may stress the family too much. 

 

1000 PIC still seems to be the magic number. You have a few choices:

1. Remain on AD (don’t take the bonus) and build up your PIC there. Note that Big Blue may interrupt your plan by giving you a non flying staff job at any time, extending your timeline and (they hope) influencing the calculus that will make you more likely to suck it up and stay for 20. 
 

2. Go to a guard/reserve unit & get your PIC there. It’s been a while, so I’m not sure how easy it is to get orders these days, but with the airline hiring boom, I imagine it won’t be difficult to build up hours in short order. 
 

3. Go to a regional. You’ll upgrade quickly and once you do, you’ll have your PIC in no time. Note: many people would put “ACMIs” like Atlas or Kalitta in the same category as regionals. In your case I’d avoid them as the upgrade time is much longer and you could end up being stuck there for a long period of time. 
 

4. Combine 2 and 3. You’ll have some control of your regional schedule, build some PIC in the ARC while waiting for the airline upgrade, and be able to supplement your regional income somewhat. Best option IMO but I’ve seen it done successfully using all options laid out.

Thats my 2 cents. As always, all advice given here is worth what you paid for it, take with a grain of salt, and YMMV.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

I’m probably missing something about the career if you assumed I was arrogant instead of curious.  

Nope, the fault lies with me.  My apologies for my brusk post.  As others have done, feel free to pm me with specific questions about UAL.  Happy to help out.  

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1 hour ago, Newb said:

I’m approaching my UPT ADSC and have relatively low hours (IP, 700 PIC/2000 total) compared to my MAF peers. When I browse through other airline forums, .......

 

If you want to go to the airlines, your timing is excellent.  There are instances of Majors recently hiring 25 year old pilots with no turbine time.  The first-hand stories from my friends in the training center at multiple airlines are amazing.  

2000 hours, I'm guessing all turbine?  I think you'll be fine.  

Do you want to know what Henry is yelling here?  He is saying "If you don't plan to stay for 20, GO NOW!!!"

 

Henry.jpeg

Edited by HuggyU2
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This is more of a MPF-type question, but do I have to decide on a separation/terminal date and stick with it? In other words, if I don’t get a call from a major by my separation date, can I continue with AD on a day-to-day basis? Or do I set another separation date in the future? 

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23 minutes ago, Ryder1587 said:

You will be able to get hired by a major with 700 PIC. Especially when you check the military container and IP. I would submit apps ASAP. They will call.  

I think this is good advice, too.  The standards are lowering by the day as they rush to fill the company with qualified bodies, and 700/2000 hours along with all the military jazz definitely puts you in the qualified bucket.  Besides, as you alluded to before, a lot of airlines don't really give a shit about gobs of hours - they just want to know that you can fly and are good to get along with.  700 hours? 7000 hours?  17000 hours?  They all know how to fly, and the airline knows it.

 

Flew with an interview captain a few months ago (DAL).  He said the discussions in the hiring rooms are seriously about how the airlineapps/pilotcredentials pool of qualified candidates is simply not big enough to accommodate hiring for the big 6 airlines for more than a year or two if the pool doesn't fill back up pretty quicly.  This is why Delta is literally grabbing kids while they are still students at aviation schools like Auburn & MTSU and setting them on a path to employment that early.

 

Bottom line - apply now,  you NEVER KNOW what you will get, just like I find out almost every month bidding.  I am usually pleasantly surprised.    

 

 

And this is also great advice  👇👇👇👇👇

30 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

Do you want to know what Henry is yelling here?  He is saying "If you don't plan to stay for 20, GO NOW!!!"

 

Henry.jpeg

 

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I’m approaching my UPT ADSC and have relatively low hours (IP, 700 PIC/2000 total) compared to my MAF peers. When I browse through other airline forums, 1000 PIC/3000 total seems to be the delineator for the majors (pre-COVID). I understand many other factors are involved with the hiring process. However, with the renewed hiring surge, are there folks getting hired with less hours than before?
If I join a regional and separate from AD (no guard/reserve) will this increase my chances of progressing to a major, even if I no longer gain PIC hours? Or should I stay on AD until I hit 1000 PIC? What can I do now to round out my resume (masters, EP, SE, etc)? 
My spouse is AD is well (with kids), so a potential double commute to a reserve/guard base may stress the family too much. 
 

Put your app in! These companies need talent, and your military training and experience is a well known commodity to the hiring teams.

I’m in a similar boat to you (950 PIC/1700 total) and Delta extended the interview invite two weeks after I submitted my app. It’s a plus if you can check as many boxes possible (IP, EP, Safety, etc.), but just know that as long as you meet the minimums, these companies are seriously considering all qualified talent.
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FWIW captain from my list trip (regional) was interviewing with Delta. Had 50 turbine PIC. Non Military too. edit: actually got offered an interview when he had 0 PIC

I can’t emphasize enough, what has already been said, if you meet the barebones mins to apply just send it. So many data points of people getting hired with way less experience than what used to be the standard. I mean it’s insanity. 

 

Edited by jonlbs
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4 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

But the nature or the beast is such that seniority lists favor civilian backgrounds.  

Met a dude today that will be <10 at D for 5 years.  🤑 Civilian.  

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34 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Didn't Delta just hire their youngest pilot ever this year? He was like 23 years old? I think I saw it in the news. 

Maybe.  Youngest on the list this second is 24 and, amazingly, 24 is ho hum at this point.  Their career earning potential blows my mind.  With 40+ years to fly, their company 401k contributions alone will be something north of $6m in today's dollars.  If they max their IRAs, 401k, HSA, and maybe throw a few bucks at a 529 (not that hard to do, really), they can easily get to $12m by retirement. 

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On 1/10/2022 at 1:06 PM, Newb said:

This is more of a MPF-type question, but do I have to decide on a separation/terminal date and stick with it? In other words, if I don’t get a call from a major by my separation date, can I continue with AD on a day-to-day basis? Or do I set another separation date in the future? 

I separated in 2020...it was a great year to start a new AFRC job AND a new Airline job.  I was set for a May date, but got a 3 month delay to Aug.  It's possible, but definitely not enjoyable.  I didn't get my approval for the delay until 3 days before my May separation date...no stress there, right?  

In your shoes, I'd set a separation date 12 months out and try to stick with it.  Set your airline available date to that day.  The MOMENT you get terminal leave approved (which should be 90 days prior to get orders in hand, not a commander's verbal), re-update your available date on all airline apps.

The airlines understand that these mil dates can be fluid, so if you interview, get accepted, then have the date change because AFPC is...well...horrible at their job, you're probably ok for one 'I can start training on this date' change with the airline that hires you.

The airlines appear to do class scheduling about 3-6 months in advance at the most.  It feels like it's a lot less then that at some though.  The ACMI I used to work for gave some guys who were waiting for a class date 3 days of notice to get to class.  

The only DO NOT is to say you are available when you know you're not, and then plan on getting grace from the airline.  You say you're available, be available.

Edited by FourFans130
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5 hours ago, Newb said:

I’m approaching my UPT ADSC and have relatively low hours (IP, 700 PIC/2000 total) compared to my MAF peers. When I browse through other airline forums, 1000 PIC/3000 total seems to be the delineator for the majors (pre-COVID). I understand many other factors are involved with the hiring process. However, with the renewed hiring surge, are there folks getting hired with less hours than before?

If I join a regional and separate from AD (no guard/reserve) will this increase my chances of progressing to a major, even if I no longer gain PIC hours? Or should I stay on AD until I hit 1000 PIC? What can I do now to round out my resume (masters, EP, SE, etc)? 

My spouse is AD is well (with kids), so a potential double commute to a reserve/guard base may stress the family too much. 

 

What have you been flying on AD?  Not all PIC is created equal 

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