The new airline thread

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, Practice Pan said:

Ya gotta admit that the short haul airline system has to change..and soon..probably to high speed rail...the Europeans are starting now..The waste of POL to haul a container of people up to ..I dunno 270 ..whatever..cannot be sustained..

Who gets to determine if it’s a “waste”?  Clearly enough people don’t see it the same way as you since they’re more than willing to pay the fare.

[HossHarris]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

link to APC thread:  Congratulations to First Officer Pettit - Airline Pilot Central Forums (airlinepilotforums.com)

 

Of note, the vast majority of “leadership” that tried to pull off this screw job are still gainfully employed with delta 

[BashiChuni]

6 hours ago, Practice Pan said:

Ya gotta admit that the short haul airline system has to change..and soon..probably to high speed rail...the Europeans are starting now..The waste of POL to haul a container of people up to ..I dunno 270 ..whatever..cannot be sustained..

yes it can. sounds like your a climate extremist

[Chida]

Don’t feed the troll…

[AirGuardianC141747]

10 hours ago, Practice Pan said:

Ya gotta admit that the short haul airline system has to change..and soon..probably to high speed rail...the Europeans are starting now..The waste of POL to haul a container of people up to ..I dunno 270 ..whatever..cannot be sustained..

Europeans have done a lot long before now and some high speed rail is actually dated and refurbishment is happening. Bullet train in Japan I rode on when I grew up there actually looked like a bullet compared to most any other high speed system of today. It has morphed over the decades. Bottom line as mentioned before by others, Europe and most of Asian countries are quite small. All of Japan fits in the state of Montana as we were taught during my high school days there (Japan). Now add the population to that state and that’s when the reality of a “system has to change” statement applies. Perspective is everything and one can only gain so much via the internet vs actually living it.

Europe is full of “pocket cities” and the countries are once again Small in comparison. Average of 3 days to drive across the US, just see how far and how many countries you can pass thru in that timeframe. Watermelon to a bunch plums comparison.

[SocialD]

The French are cutting short haul flights within their country due to "climate change."  The simple fact that the French are doing this, is good enough reason to me, for us to NOT follow suit!   

[tac airlifter]

13 hours ago, Practice Pan said:

Ya gotta admit that the short haul airline system has to change..and soon...The waste of POL….cannot be sustained..

Nonsense.

[FLEA]

18 hours ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

Europeans have done a lot long before now and some high speed rail is actually dated and refurbishment is happening. Bullet train in Japan I rode on when I grew up there actually looked like a bullet compared to most any other high speed system of today. It has morphed over the decades. Bottom line as mentioned before by others, Europe and most of Asian countries are quite small. All of Japan fits in the state of Montana as we were taught during my high school days there (Japan). Now add the population to that state and that’s when the reality of a “system has to change” statement applies. Perspective is everything and one can only gain so much via the internet vs actually living it.

Europe is full of “pocket cities” and the countries are once again Small in comparison. Average of 3 days to drive across the US, just see how far and how many countries you can pass thru in that timeframe. Watermelon to a bunch plums comparison.

I agree that the west is a bit too expansive to cover with extended high speed rail networks. However..... most of the US population lives in the geographic bounds of the east coast to the mid west. No reason networked high speed cant connect most of those cities and open up regional travel for the majority of Americans. 

And I realize that its counter beneficial to our careers to promote alternatives to air transportation but as a consumer I'll be frank.... taking a train is 1000X better than flying any day of the week. Flying (as a passenger) has become a miserable hell of an experience I try to avoid in any way possible. 

Edited January 2, 2023 by FLEA

[ViperMan]

2 hours ago, FLEA said:

I agree that the west is a bit too expansive to cover with extended high speed rail networks. However..... most of the US population lives in the geographic bounds of the east coast to the mid west. No reason networked high speed cant connect most of those cities and open up regional travel for the majority of Americans. 

And I realize that its counter beneficial to our careers to promote alternatives to air transportation but as a consumer I'll be frank.... taking a train is 1000X better than flying any day of the week. Flying (as a passenger) has become a miserable hell of an experience I try to avoid in any way possible. 

I *feel* you bro, but do you realize it's cheaper to fly from DC to NYC than it is to take the train??? A train ticket from DC to Manhattan can cost >$400. AYFKM?

The only *cheap* travel option along the eastern sea board (that I've found) are the various bus companies (Megabus, etc).

Also. No. Flying is 1000x times better than taking a train as far as convenience goes. Period. Were you serious with that? Spend 2.5 days to get across the country or do it without even taking a leak...yeah I'm going with option B.

[SocialD]

Wendover Productions on Youtube has quite a few videos on trains in Europe and America.  Interesting stuff that hits on why it likely won't work great for us, including in the BOS/NYC/DCA area.

[FLEA]

59 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

I *feel* you bro, but do you realize it's cheaper to fly from DC to NYC than it is to take the train??? A train ticket from DC to Manhattan can cost >$400. AYFKM?

The only *cheap* travel option along the eastern sea board (that I've found) are the various bus companies (Megabus, etc).

Also. No. Flying is 1000x times better than taking a train as far as convenience goes. Period. Were you serious with that? Spend 2.5 days to get across the country or do it without even taking a leak...yeah I'm going with option B.

You don't use a trains to go across the country. Trains in Europe and Asia put pressure on regional airlines. There is a sweet spot on flight legs of about 0-2.5 hours where it is more advantageous to take a train. So your IAD to JFK example for instance.... Sure that leg is only 40 minutes, but don't forget, the general public (which includes me) has to be at the airport 2 hours early, 2.5 hours if airport workers are on strike, 3 hours if TSA is on strike.... there's also STTO on the tail end, waiting on a gate because the airline poorly scheduled, transit in the air terminal and waiting on bags. Total time expenditure is ~ 3-4 hours, which ironically I can drive from IAD to JFK in about 4.5 hours. 

Train prices are extortion rate prices here because they are not being pushed down by infrastructure overhaul and competition. A train from London to Paris for example, which is a similar distance as DC to JFK, can be done for $40. 

[uhhello]

Lived in UK for 8 years.  Was pumped to give trains a go travelling locally and across in Europe.  We went north up to scottland and west to wales many times but could never get it anywhere close to worth it cost/time wise.  It was ALWAYS much cheaper to fly from Stanstead up to EDI or Aberdeen and could be done from door to door in about 5 hours versus the minimum of 12.  We did the Eurostar once to Paris but drove or flew the other times.  Eurostar wasn't that much cheaper than flights but was a bit more convenient with the minimal security.   I can def see it working for certain city to city connections here and its crazy that it hasn't been done yet.  There are lots of cities where the "local" airport doesn't have many non-stop options so a 2 hour car ride can be justified for a cheaper direct flight but then you add in car gas/parking/time and it starts to not be worth it.  Connections in that regard I can def see catching on.  

Edited January 3, 2023 by uhhello

[Lord Ratner]

4 hours ago, FLEA said:

A train from London to Paris for example, which is a similar distance as DC to JFK, can be done for $40

It never ended up being cheap when I lived there.

[uhhello]

Currently $80 roundtrip london to paris mid next month.  Probably can get a bit cheaper if scheduled right.  

[ViperMan]

4 hours ago, FLEA said:

You don't use a trains to go across the country. Trains in Europe and Asia put pressure on regional airlines. There is a sweet spot on flight legs of about 0-2.5 hours where it is more advantageous to take a train. So your IAD to JFK example for instance.... Sure that leg is only 40 minutes, but don't forget, the general public (which includes me) has to be at the airport 2 hours early, 2.5 hours if airport workers are on strike, 3 hours if TSA is on strike.... there's also STTO on the tail end, waiting on a gate because the airline poorly scheduled, transit in the air terminal and waiting on bags. Total time expenditure is ~ 3-4 hours, which ironically I can drive from IAD to JFK in about 4.5 hours. 

Train prices are extortion rate prices here because they are not being pushed down by infrastructure overhaul and competition. A train from London to Paris for example, which is a similar distance as DC to JFK, can be done for $40. 

Ohhhhhhh ok. So what you were really saying is that in your *hypothetical* world, train travel would be more convenient than air travel. Missed that part.

So much here.

1. If you're arriving at the airport 2 to 2.5 hours early, you're wasting your life. No shit. Only my grandmother shows up that early. And even she is wasting her life when she gets there that early.

2. I went to Europe after having last visited 10 years prior, and lets just say, train ticket prices are now exorbitant. You might be able to catch a cheap fair between London and Paris, but if you want to *see* Europe, well, it aint the early 00s where your gonna grab $250 Eurail pass and see the continent. Sorry to break it to you - those days are long over.

3. Ryan Air is cheaper.

4. German Wings is cheaper (as long as their pilots don't run you into the Alps).

5. Sweet spots might exist in Europe, but in the US (places like LA), you might need to fly from Compton to Huntington Beach to achieve the 2.5 hour *pressure* relief you're talking about. Last I checked, there's not many Compton to Huntington Beach flights available to the general public. You're comparing apples and oranges. You got to take the 405. There is no other option.

Those are facts. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, there is room for rail and trains in this country. Why the F we have so many big rigs going coast to coast is beyond me. All that shit should be moving by rail. Get the fuck off my interstates. But yeah with your theme: trains should be a thing in this country. The point is, right now, they are not. They could be, they should be, but they are not.

[ViperMan]

4 hours ago, FLEA said:

You don't use a trains to go across the country. Trains in Europe and Asia put pressure on regional airlines. There is a sweet spot on flight legs of about 0-2.5 hours where it is more advantageous to take a train. So your IAD to JFK example for instance.... Sure that leg is only 40 minutes, but don't forget, the general public (which includes me) has to be at the airport 2 hours early, 2.5 hours if airport workers are on strike, 3 hours if TSA is on strike.... there's also STTO on the tail end, waiting on a gate because the airline poorly scheduled, transit in the air terminal and waiting on bags. Total time expenditure is ~ 3-4 hours, which ironically I can drive from IAD to JFK in about 4.5 hours. 

Train prices are extortion rate prices here because they are not being pushed down by infrastructure overhaul and competition. A train from London to Paris for example, which is a similar distance as DC to JFK, can be done for $40. 

I don't know why, I just feel like proving you and @nsplayr wrong. Here are bus tickets, train tickets, and air travel from DC to NYC on Jan 25th. Do your own research if you don't trust me. Train is the LEAST convenient in terms of time and $. $25 for a bus, $60-100 to fly, $60-360 for the train.

 

[AirGuardianC141747]

Current environment trains won’t work just based on pricing (today) which is evident regarding the post above. In order for it to work you need to have infrastructure in place for nearly a decade with frequent scheduling practices that work and the kinks worked out. Normally everything gets cheaper with higher availability or access, etc. We don’t have any access comparably to some Asia or Europe within the good size states themselves. Rode 1st class from Eastern Spain to Madrid a couple of months ago (little over 3 hrs by car). Great seat, one decent meal, feel free to roam about with only one stop in between at well above 225km per hr or about 150mph and 80 mins later presto in Madrid easy leases. Beautiful ride easy going for 87 euro, but it would take a decade or more to get a few going right with this economy, leadership, you name it.. Doable, yes - but like the man said it ain’t happening, at least not anytime soon.

Edited January 3, 2023 by AirGuardianC141747

[FLEA]

7 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Ohhhhhhh ok. So what you were really saying is that in your *hypothetical* world, train travel would be more convenient than air travel. Missed that part.

So much here.

1. If you're arriving at the airport 2 to 2.5 hours early, you're wasting your life. No shit. Only my grandmother shows up that early. And even she is wasting her life when she gets there that early.

2. I went to Europe after having last visited 10 years prior, and lets just say, train ticket prices are now exorbitant. You might be able to catch a cheap fair between London and Paris, but if you want to *see* Europe, well, it aint the early 00s where your gonna grab $250 Eurail pass and see the continent. Sorry to break it to you - those days are long over.

3. Ryan Air is cheaper.

4. German Wings is cheaper (as long as their pilots don't run you into the Alps).

5. Sweet spots might exist in Europe, but in the US (places like LA), you might need to fly from Compton to Huntington Beach to achieve the 2.5 hour *pressure* relief you're talking about. Last I checked, there's not many Compton to Huntington Beach flights available to the general public. You're comparing apples and oranges. You got to take the 405. There is no other option.

Those are facts. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, there is room for rail and trains in this country. Why the F we have so many big rigs going coast to coast is beyond me. All that shit should be moving by rail. Get the fuck off my interstates. But yeah with your theme: trains should be a thing in this country. The point is, right now, they are not. They could be, they should be, but they are not.

I think your missing a lot of context here. If train prices were high in Europe you weren't buying correctly. I lived there up until this year and very rarely paid more than $50 to go anywhere. 

Ryan air isn't cheaper because they nickle and dime you with baggage fees/etc.... There are no flight guarantees, the highest cancellation rate of any airline in Europe and the fact you will likely have to cancel your trip. Ryan air is great if you're a 20 something digital nomad with lots of travel flexibility. Less so if you have a family and are trying to get away for a long weekend. 

And yes.... 2 hours early. Bro I don't know how often you're traveling by air but just 3 months ago Schippol was a literal dumpster fire with people lined up on the INTERSTATE, three miles from the airport, to get into security. 

ORD is not quite as bad but wait times for TSA pre check we're 1.5 hours going to DC as recently as November. 

IAD, I waited 45 minutes in TSA pre check to go to Houston. 

This is with TSA pre check.... I'm sad for the schmucks who can't afford that or are not in the military..... 

If I miss my flight and have to get rolexed 2-3 hours, I completely lost the speed advantage of air. 

Let's also not forget the premium on rail travel because it simply is more comfortable than air travel. If a trip was only 20-30 minutes longer or 20% more expensive, I'd probably still take rail to avoid the headache of having to wait in lines, be yelled at by gate agents, be stuffed in a tuna can.... 

Like let's face it man, regional airline travel sucks in almost every scenario. 

[uhhello]

27 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I think your missing a lot of context here. If train prices were high in Europe you weren't buying correctly. I lived there up until this year and very rarely paid more than $50 to go anywhere. 

Ryan air isn't cheaper because they nickle and dime you with baggage fees/etc.... There are no flight guarantees, the highest cancellation rate of any airline in Europe and the fact you will likely have to cancel your trip. Ryan air is great if you're a 20 something digital nomad with lots of travel flexibility. Less so if you have a family and are trying to get away for a long weekend. 

And yes.... 2 hours early. Bro I don't know how often you're traveling by air but just 3 months ago Schippol was a literal dumpster fire with people lined up on the INTERSTATE, three miles from the airport, to get into security. 

ORD is not quite as bad but wait times for TSA pre check we're 1.5 hours going to DC as recently as November. 

IAD, I waited 45 minutes in TSA pre check to go to Houston. 

This is with TSA pre check.... I'm sad for the schmucks who can't afford that or are not in the military..... 

If I miss my flight and have to get rolexed 2-3 hours, I completely lost the speed advantage of air. 

Let's also not forget the premium on rail travel because it simply is more comfortable than air travel. If a trip was only 20-30 minutes longer or 20% more expensive, I'd probably still take rail to avoid the headache of having to wait in lines, be yelled at by gate agents, be stuffed in a tuna can.... 

Like let's face it man, regional airline travel sucks in almost every scenario. 

$50?  You're one hell of a deal finder.  

[brabus]

48 minutes ago, FLEA said:

And yes.... 2 hours early.

I believe you experienced all of that, but what you’re describing is not the norm and an extraordinary string of horrible luck. I’ve been through airport security all over this country around 100 times just in the last 6 months, maybe one time I saw a pre-check line as you described (and since I get randomed 90% of the time, I see pre-check lines all the time). Flew out of IAH end of Nov on a weekend at peak travel time and waited approx 3 min in the pre-check line. I get the point you’re trying to make, but it’s inaccurate to paint that picture as “normal.” 

I like the trains in Japan and Europe, but reality is a system like those in the US just isn’t feasible on a grand scale. Even regionally is very difficult due to first, cost and second, culture. It makes sense in theory to have a high speed run a circuit DCA-NYC-BOS-IAD or something like that, but that’s not an easy feat, in fact so far from easy there just isn’t a strong enough appetite to start doing it in any meaningful way.

[nsplayr]

10 hours ago, ViperMan said:

I don't know why, I just feel like proving you and @nsplayr wrong.

I don't think I'm involved in this trains vs planes discussion at all, but I love you too man 😘

[FourFans]

All these are false arguments: people with normal incomes don't routinely travel between DC and NY.  Only the exorbitantly rich and professional protestors do that.

Edited January 3, 2023 by FourFans130

[Biff_T]

[SurelySerious]

So in airline news, AA management made a whole slew of procedural changes to include tasks during critical phases of flight, but provided no training on them except some vague distance learning videos. Then, after some objection they stated that “no one expects you to comply with 100% of the changes day one”…except that’s not how effective publication dates work.

[Lord Ratner]

14 hours ago, ViperMan said:

I don't know why, I just feel like proving you and @nsplayr wrong. Here are bus tickets, train tickets, and air travel from DC to NYC on Jan 25th. Do your own research if you don't trust me. Train is the LEAST convenient in terms of time and $. $25 for a bus, $60-100 to fly, $60-360 for the train.

 

Trains are more comfortable to be in, and easier to disembark from. Those are the only advantages over air travel I can think of. As usual, the market does a good job assessing value