The new airline thread

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

For a job that requires relatively high SA, it amazes me how little general SA some of these guys have outside the cockpit (that’s right, I said it, #fuckyourflightdeck).

It’s not low SA, it’s arrogance.

[brabus]

That’s valid. 

[arg]

My idiot CA last trip was talking about his $100k retro check on the van to the hotel, in front of the driver, who I'm sure was making about $10/hr with no benefits. My one word answers made him talk more about the calculations, pensionable vs not pensionable, why not pensionable in prior years, but it's ok because net cost is so great.
Then tipped a dollar like usual.

Should motivate the driver


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[Prozac]

10 hours ago, HeloDude said:

It’s not low SA, it’s arrogance.

It’s also living in their own reality for decades. It’s easy to start thinking that the way we get to live is normal. The trick is to be able to recognize when you are being an arrogant ass in public. Just like I ask my fellow crewmembers to point out my fuck ups in the jet, I’ll also tell guys to just kick me if I start talking about money/lifestyle in front of the wrong crowd. 

[HeloDude]

2 hours ago, Prozac said:

It’s also living in their own reality for decades. It’s easy to start thinking that the way we get to live is normal. The trick is to be able to recognize when you are being an arrogant ass in public. Just like I ask my fellow crewmembers to point out my fuck ups in the jet, I’ll also tell guys to just kick me if I start talking about money/lifestyle in front of the wrong crowd. 

Concur man.  Many years ago I had a Major tell a group of us Lts/Capts to not talk about money in front of the enlisted (especially the younger airmen), for obvious reasons.  Additionally, my wife and I fortunately both do pretty well, and I’m not a big fan of always talking about money, luxury items even with peers.  If money/possessions is all someone can/wants to talk about then we’re just two very different people.

[Lord Ratner]

On 5/31/2023 at 6:06 PM, FourFans said:

Knock it off.  I let the lid off online.  That was wrong.

I had a severely grating experience with a virulently entitled older CA who decided to aggressively inform me that I need to work harder to pay 'my fair share' into social security so it doesn't bottom out on him.  It's not the first time I've been shit on by these older guys, and I lost it, and it came out via whiskey, a keyboard, and the airline forum. 

Seriously bad form on my part.  Post deleted. 

@HuggyU2, apologies for the hitting a sore spot.  Thanks for the sage words of direction.  I'm sure young huggy never shot off at the mouth or had the mayor throw a pool ball his way for buffoonery.

The fact that, of all people in all the demographics, a select set of older airline pilots decide to dump on anyone younger than them in the work force has been seriously rubbing me the wrong way.  But that's not an excuse.

I'll get back to leaving the drunken posting to others.

 

Oh the irony: ...an inappropriate and aggressive expression of frustration at getting generationally cornholed is met with "go fuck yourself".  I guess there's solace to be had.  I don't have to do it myself when someone else is already elbow deep.

The "just die" part was a bit raw, but you were right about the overall character of the generation. Entitled, irresponsible, and completely unprepared for a retirement that their delusional government spending has ensured my generation will never have.

 

The boomers have the honorable distinction of being the first ever generation of American parents to leave their children worse off than they were. Bravo.

[Royal]

FedEx TA just dropped. Only one dissenting voice from the MEC. Any thoughts from the bros there?

[mcbush]

Not a FedEx guy, but at first glance it looks pretty rough

https://fdxta.com/

[Prozac]

15 hours ago, mcbush said:

Not a FedEx guy, but at first glance it looks pretty rough

https://fdxta.com/

Agreed. Not a good omen for those of us at Brown hoping to pattern bargain. Purple guys chime in, but scuttlebut around here is that the A plan (pension) will no longer be offered to new hires in favor of an improved B plan, some backwards movement on scope and QOL issues (ex. long call callout time reduced from 24 to 16hrs), and rather paltry pay raises. Barring some glaring positives that we’ve missed, we’re generally hoping they vote it down. FWIW, I don’t think we helped them out much with our last two contract extensions either. 

[SocialD]

Am I reading that correctly, the 11% MBCBP is subject to 401(a)(17) limits?  Given that company contributions to their 401k are subject to the same limits, they'll be be capped at $66k (2023) for contributions into their combined savings plan.  Do FDX guys at least get "cash over cap" back to them as taxable income? 

 

At first glance, seems like a bad deal for those hired after this gets passed.  With the protections in place for pensions, I'd much rather take my chances with their pension/401k combo.   If the pension goes away, FDX will lose one of their biggest edges over the pax carriers in recruiting candidates.  

[Stoker]

I thought the whole point of a MBCBP is that it isn't subject to the 401k limits. It's basically a funded pension pretending to be a 401k, but it's not actually in an account you own.

[AirGuardianC141747]

On 6/14/2023 at 4:15 AM, SocialD said:

Am I reading that correctly, the 11% MBCBP is subject to 401(a)(17) limits?  Given that company contributions to their 401k are subject to the same limits, they'll be be capped at $66k (2023) for contributions into their combined savings plan.  Do FDX guys at least get "cash over cap" back to them as taxable income? 

 

At first glance, seems like a bad deal for those hired after this gets passed.  With the protections in place for pensions, I'd much rather take my chances with their pension/401k combo.   If the pension goes away, FDX will lose one of their biggest edges over the pax carriers in recruiting candidates.  

After talking to a few of my Purple friends it seems the rip between the younger or those with more than 7-10 yrs remaining and those with 7 years or less being closer to retirement (approximately) has undoubtedly occurred with said contract.  Say No for a better deal with a possible 2 year delay vs take the increase and run out the door. Understand the issues for both and overall it’s not that simple, but realize the company wasn’t stupid in their strategy for winning either way. 
 

*Also, folks were starting to trickle to the Majors etc., but it has become more apparent as some aren’t even showing for indoc so I was told. The current push from a few others within purple walls is for those with less than 3 years on  property or maybe a bit more is to bail. Hiring has obviously halted so there most definitely will be some exodus. Too bad as we were hoping it would be a great contract and drag others up. Delta did well, but a lone wolf doesn’t help much versus a pack in this industry. Patiently waiting for the former leap frogging events of yesteryear.

Fedex maybe turning into a different creature despite their incredible effort during the Rona. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t. F. Smith’s replacement is a piece of work from an outside view.

Edited June 25, 2023 by AirGuardianC141747

[SurelySerious]

Delta did well, but a lone wolf doesn’t help much versus a pack in this industry. Patiently waiting for the former leap frogging events of yesteryear.

Definitely don’t hold your breath for AA to leap frog. Slightly below to near Delta at best, and company doesn’t want any culpability for delayed/nonexistent implementation. They’re apparently resisting any implementation guarantees/penalties.

[brabus]

Without an implementation timeline and associated fines for not meeting it, the new contract has as much meaning as the TP I wiped my ass with. The company knows this, but are they really so arrogant to think the pilot group doesn’t? What is going on at AA! 

[Royal]

18 hours ago, brabus said:

Without an implementation timeline and associated fines for not meeting it, the new contract has as much meaning as the TP I wiped my ass with. The company knows this, but are they really so arrogant to think the pilot group doesn’t? What is going on at AA! 

This isn't directed at you, Brabus, but what difference does it make if the pilot group knows it or not? Look at AAL's on time performance and completion factors (which management's bonuses are tied to). Are those figures indicative of a pilot group that's actually angry?

[HuggyU2]

Royal, I'm completely unsure of your point. 
Would you state your point in the form of a statement, instead of questions?

[Royal]

7 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

Royal, I'm completely unsure of your point. 
Would you state your point in the form of a statement, instead of questions?

Certainly! My point is that I don't believe the AAL pilot group is actually upset enough to do anything about the situation. Management reneging at the last second on already agreed upon items or implementation of specific portions of a contract is due in part to their moral bankruptcy but also because they know they can get away with it. The operation will continue to run on schedule and unimpeded no matter the level of skullduggery perpetrated by management.

[brabus]

The pilots group’s worst enemy is…the pilot group. 

[SurelySerious]

Without an implementation timeline and associated fines for not meeting it, the new contract has as much meaning as the TP I wiped my ass with. The company knows this, but are they really so arrogant to think the pilot group doesn’t? What is going on at AA! 

In agreement, although apparently the Co finally agreed to implementation terms, but remains to be seen what they are.

To Royal’s point AA’s pilots seem overeager to hurry and try to make up for the company’s operational shortcomings instead of making them stick by just doing the job.

[SocialD]

On 6/25/2023 at 7:38 PM, AirGuardianC141747 said:

After talking to a few of my Purple friends it seems the rip between the younger or those with more than 7-10 yrs remaining and those with 7 years or less being closer to retirement (approximately) has undoubtedly occurred with said contract.  Say No for a better deal with a possible 2 year delay vs take the increase and run out the door. Understand the issues for both and overall it’s not that simple, but realize the company wasn’t stupid in their strategy for winning either way. 

 

 

Ya the company made a strong play to finally rid itself of the pension.  From talking with a former squadron mate at FDX for a while, it appears they've had to expend a decent amount of capital just to maintain the current pension.  Smart of them to plus it up a bit for those who will get to keep it, while dumping it for any new hires.  Get buy in by those who will do anything to keep their pension and who cares about those not hired...

 

If they lose the pension, I think they lose a big competitive advantage as the pension is one of the big things they have over pax carriers, by a long shot.  If they have the same retirement as the pax carriers, why choose FDX over UAL or DAL?  Big reasons I can think of is that you live in/near a FDX hub or you live somewhere where their rotation construction (read DH on front/back or both ends) is advantageous over the airlines.  Otherwise, it's the same gig, except you'll likely fly more nights in your career (yes I know they do day flying...an WB pax carriers fly nights).   The whole "dealing with pax" things is wildly overblown by those who are at the cargo carriers as another justification for their choice.  I've been at DAL for 10 years, 2 as a Captain and I have yet to "deal with a pax" that was anything more than having the FO call a red coat, or have a medical divert that made me quite a bit of extra cash. 

 

 

On 6/25/2023 at 7:38 PM, AirGuardianC141747 said:

*Also, folks were starting to trickle to the Majors etc., but it has become more apparent as some aren’t even showing for indoc so I was told. The current push from a few others within purple walls is for those with less than 3 years on  property or maybe a bit more is to bail. Hiring has obviously halted so there most definitely will be some exodus. Too bad as we were hoping it would be a great contract and drag others up. Delta did well, but a lone wolf doesn’t help much versus a pack in this industry. Patiently waiting for the former leap frogging events of yesteryear.

Fedex maybe turning into a different creature despite their incredible effort during the Rona. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t. F. Smith’s replacement is a piece of work from an outside view.

 

 

We all have our warts and noone is immune to have people not show up to indoc.  I'd venture to guess that over the last few years, more pax carriers had no shows than the cargo guys.  Hell, I have a squadron mate that left FDX during training...for UPS lol.  Back to current day, I'd say it's a bit pre-mature to just up and bail, especially if you're still going to have the pension.  There could be something to the business model change to consider, I haven't read into that.  We all take our turns in the barrel, thought I'm not sure that's the right term for what FDX is experiencing right meow.  The pax carriers are just lucky that uncle sugar bailed us out during rona, though they should since they had a large part in creating that mess.  If I had more than few years there, I'd seriously have a hard time leaving right now.

 

I do know one thing, my FDX squadron bros are a bit nervous (as many pax carrier dude were back in 2020).  One is about to peace out to long term orders and the other is questioning leaving DAL after indoc for FDX.  That may be more to do with the realization of the pain of driving an hour to a major DAL hub to commute to MEM to sit reserve...  

[Prozac]

40 minutes ago, SocialD said:

The whole "dealing with pax" things is wildly overblown by those who are at the cargo carriers as another justification for their choice. 

That’s fair but remember that “not dealing with pax” means I get to fly in pajamas & get up and take a piss whenever I want. Also, in my admittedly short experience flying pax, it was usually the FAs, not the pax, causing drama. I still maintain flying freight is more chill. Not a big enough difference to really be a factor in deciding where to hang one’s career hat though. 

[Sua Sponte]

Meanwhile at UAL…

https://www.denver7.com/news/local-news/stranded-passengers-sleeping-on-cots-at-dia-tuesday-morning

[Smokin]

Clearly not where you want to spend the night, but at least they put cots out.  Seen plenty of people sleeping in chairs and on the floor.  A cot is a huge step up from sleeping upright on an airport bench.

[SocialD]

On 6/27/2023 at 8:02 AM, Prozac said:

That’s fair but remember that “not dealing with pax” means I get to fly in pajamas & get up and take a piss whenever I want. Also, in my admittedly short experience flying pax, it was usually the FAs, not the pax, causing drama. I still maintain flying freight is more chill. Not a big enough difference to really be a factor in deciding where to hang one’s career hat though. 

 

 

I don't have much time to change into PJ's for my morning, DTW-GRR (25 min airborne) day turn lol.  But your last sentence is the overall point.  Especially since a vast majority of them are great to work/chat with...but ya, there are the occasional Chads/Karens.  

[Duck]

SWAPA just asked for release.


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