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4 hours ago, brabus said:

Yep, and yet we’re hell bent on destroying it and plunging ourselves into a dark shithole. 

“Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” - we’re in the last part of that quote, and history repeats itself. 
 

The sky is falling! I've always heard people say the country is "going to hell" for like 30 years now. Some people even think the decline started 50 years ago. At what point do we actually get there?

While we're on the subject, who are the weak men supposed to be? If these weak men are creating hard times, then where do the strong men come from? After all, you said history repeats itself. Tread lightly on this answer, because you might end up complimenting the wrong people by accident.

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Complete and utter malarkey. ONE mainstream network went after Obama, Foxnews, some of it unwarranted Political tripe, some of it valid.  Meanwhile ALL of the remaining mainstream networks suppor

Want to slash American carbon?  Build nuclear power plants.  

When MSNBC announced Trump's win in Iowa, there was an audible grunt from Rachel Madow. By the sound of it, she apparently sat on her sack wrong. Happens to the best of us.

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42 minutes ago, joe1234 said:

The sky is falling! I've always heard people say the country is "going to hell" for like 30 years now. Some people even think the decline started 50 years ago. At what point do we actually get there?

While we're on the subject, who are the weak men supposed to be? If these weak men are creating hard times, then where do the strong men come from? After all, you said history repeats itself. Tread lightly on this answer, because you might end up complimenting the wrong people by accident.

We did just have an armed mob try and storm the capital to capture the Legislature.  So yes, I'd say one more step towards a hell, however we can pull back.  That's the great thing about our country. 

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13 hours ago, slackline said:

Are you saying Trump represents conservatism?  Let's not mince words because that is the implication made here by your statement.  

Considering him a vehicle for conservative policies, I could see that.  

Calling Trump conservative is a stretch. He clearly flipped sides to where he thought he'd get the most mileage. There's a difference between showing a career politician who's positions have evolved a flip-flopper, and a man who one second espoused views 180 out from the next second. Trump, for those keeping score falls into the latter category.

Quite the contrary, I'm saying that Biden represents anti conservativism. If you must add Trump to the equation, he is certainly more conservative than Biden, while not being particularly conservative.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that Biden is the opposite of conservatism. Which is why I pointed out other voting possibilities consistent with conservatism. But voting for the politician and party that is anti-conservative is not one of them.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Prozac said:

Never really understood the “we need to elect someone who’ll burn the system down” sentiment that got Trump elected and seems to be driving the Republican Party into oblivion. By all accounts we live in the best time it’s ever been to be a human being. War, disease (even considering the current situation), famine, and poverty are at their lowest points in human history. We each literally have access to most of the data ever collected in the world in the palm of our hands. More of the world is experiencing freedom than ever before. Overall, our lives have been getting progressively better. But somehow the system is suddenly broken beyond fixing? Armed insurrection is the only way forward? Treasonous, conspiracy driven politicians like Trump and Taylor Greene are somehow on the same plane as “traditional” players like Biden, Obama, or Bush?  Sorry, no. I’ll give you that politics is often messy and sometimes dirty. That doesn’t mean it’s not working. Enjoy a nice vacation in the last five years? Own a home? Kids get to go to school every day? Fire department shows up when there’s a fire? The insurrectionist wing of the Republican Party wants to throw all that out with the bath water. Sorry, but I’ll take “traditional” politics, flawed as it is, every day of the week and twice on Sunday. 

So we can at least agree that the BLM race riots started in May were based on a lie and fueled by lies, and directly in conflict with the reality of society in 2020. 

 

Just like the Capitol riots were based on a lie and fueled by lies, and directly in conflict with the reality of the 2020 election.

 

So why is it then, when it's the best time to be alive, including if you're a black man or woman in America, do people on both sides of the political spectrum feel like the situation is so dire that they must literally set fire to the streets?

 

I suspect it's because of the people we are meant to rely on to tell us the truth, politicians, scientists, media figures, and intellectuals, have decided that winning is more important than honesty. It used to be that Republicans were always on their back foot in this game, because there was a line they didn't seem willing to cross. The Trump era has put an end to that. It seems like the only differentiation between Republicans and Democrats anymore is which lies they fight over.

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20 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Quite the contrary, I'm saying that Biden represents anti conservativism. If you must add Trump to the equation, he is certainly more conservative than Biden, while not being particularly conservative.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that Biden is the opposite of conservatism. Which is why I pointed out other voting possibilities consistent with conservatism. But voting for the politician and party that is anti-conservative is not one of them.

 

 

You gave other options, and I’ve written in names in past elections.  This was an election where, potentially, every single vote could have made a difference. I feel like writing in some other name would have been akin to throwing it away.  I wanted to ensure Trump didn’t make it in because I didn’t do my part.  With McCain (American hero, no slight on him there), I didn’t like his politics, but I sure as heck wasn’t voting for Obama.  McCain had no hope of winning anyway, so my write-in didn’t hurt him.

9 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

So we can at least agree that the BLM race riots started in May were based on a lie and fueled by lies, and directly in conflict with the reality of society in 2020. 

 

Just like the Capitol riots were based on a lie and fueled by lies, and directly in conflict with the reality of the 2020 election.

 

So why is it then, when it's the best time to be alive, including if you're a black man or woman in America, do people on both sides of the political spectrum feel like the situation is so dire that they must literally set fire to the streets?

 

I suspect it's because of the people we are meant to rely on to tell us the truth, politicians, scientists, media figures, and intellectuals, have decided that winning is more important than honesty. It used to be that Republicans were always on their back foot in this game, because there was a line they didn't seem willing to cross. The Trump era has put an end to that. It seems like the only differentiation between Republicans and Democrats anymore is which lies they fight over.

You comparing the Capitol riots to riots (not excusing them or calling them good) based on demonstrable and verifiable social inequalities is laughable.  You’re way above this too man.  You’ve put out so many intelligent points over time, that it is weird you’d drop that out there expecting it to land.  Riots=bad.  We all agree.  Capitol Riot was nowhere close to the same thing as the legitimate unrest caused by decades of mistreatment.  

Go ahead, staunch defenders of the white faith, give me your downvotes.  You have very intelligent, die-hard conservatives in here echoing my exact points on what is happening with race relations in this country.  I haven’t seen you downvoting Clearedhot when he disagrees with your view that all is right in the land of social equality...  

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1 hour ago, slackline said:

You comparing the Capitol riots to riots (not excusing them or calling them good) based on demonstrable and verifiable social inequalities is laughable.  You’re way above this too man.  You’ve put out so many intelligent points over time, that it is weird you’d drop that out there expecting it to land.  Riots=bad.  We all agree.  Capitol Riot was nowhere close to the same thing as the legitimate unrest caused by decades of mistreatment. 

To act like the riots over the exact same thing have happened over and over and over as well.  Are we acting like "those people" just like to riot for no reason?
 

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

So we can at least agree that the BLM race riots started in May were based on a lie and fueled by lies, and directly in conflict with the reality of society in 2020.

I don't know.  Dead dude because of a cops knee on his throat vs. QAnon, and the Pres "going down to the Capitol with them" or his lawyer wanting "trial by combat."

So no, we don't agree.

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1 hour ago, slackline said:

You gave other options, and I’ve written in names in past elections.  This was an election where, potentially, every single vote could have made a difference. I feel like writing in some other name would have been akin to throwing it away.  I wanted to ensure Trump didn’t make it in because I didn’t do my part.  With McCain (American hero, no slight on him there), I didn’t like his politics, but I sure as heck wasn’t voting for Obama.  McCain had no hope of winning anyway, so my write-in didn’t hurt him.

You comparing the Capitol riots to riots (not excusing them or calling them good) based on demonstrable and verifiable social inequalities is laughable.  You’re way above this too man.  You’ve put out so many intelligent points over time, that it is weird you’d drop that out there expecting it to land.  Riots=bad.  We all agree.  Capitol Riot was nowhere close to the same thing as the legitimate unrest caused by decades of mistreatment.  

Go ahead, staunch defenders of the white faith, give me your downvotes.  You have very intelligent, die-hard conservatives in here echoing my exact points on what is happening with race relations in this country.  I haven’t seen you downvoting Clearedhot when he disagrees with your view that all is right in the land of social equality...  

Actually, they are both bullshit, that's exactly what I'm saying. You have a neat way of selectively picking which talking points "represent" a particular side, while conveniently ignoring the others. The fact of the matter is that overwhelmingly what was claimed during the race riots was bullshit. It's not even worth the time to pull up the nearly endless list of prominent leftists making claims as to the fatal nature of black people interacting with the police. But never numbers. When your cause can't be quantified in any way without discrediting the cause then the problem is the cause itself.

 

These riots weren't about getting pulled over more, or getting side eye from a convenience store owner, or gang violence, hell they weren't even about the very real issues of incarceration impacting the ability of black communities to dig out of a very deep hole. Overwhelmingly they were about police brutality towards black people. And the most prominent cases, used as evidence of a systemic attack on black bodies, were misrepresented in ways that discredit the entire argument. And it was merely a continuation of the same lie, with different names and different cases fed into the narrative. Michael brown, trayvon martin, and now George Floyd. 

 

The bad old days of overt American racism are over. They have been for a while. The Civil Rights movement never required the mental gymnastics we see today to justify their protests, and yes, riots. It was plain to see for everyone, and because of such they were triumphant. The difficulties with race in 2021, and specifically within the black community, are much more difficult to address. There is no boogeyman, no villain to unify against. Not whiteness, not the police, not the system.

 

But if I were to apply your logic to it then in fact the capital riots weren't about Trump or election theft, they were very legitimate protests against widespread yet nearly impossible to document election fraud, and just because a few crazies went a little too far, that shouldn't get in the way of the very legitimate and well-documented cause that they are supporting.

 

There is no mortal threat to the black population in the United States from any element of the government, least of all the police. Minimize that claim all you like, but the rest of us don't need to be moralized over taking an argument at face value. One that was made over and over and over for a few years now. There was also no stolen election. Trump lost because Trump is a fucking moron, that's it. Yeah there are plenty of videos unequivocally proving voter fraud, but they are hundreds of votes out of over a hundred million. Neither statistic justifies the response, thus making the riots, on both sides, bullshit.

 

It's completely chicken shit to tell everybody who disagrees with your narrative that they're just defending whiteness. I'm a fucking cuban jew, for Christ's sakes. You think I have a lot of cred in the white supremacist community? You can call out a lie for what it is without having an affinity for your own skin color.

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2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Actually, they are both bullshit, that's exactly what I'm saying. You have a neat way of selectively picking which talking points "represent" a particular side, while conveniently ignoring the others. The fact of the matter is that overwhelmingly what was claimed during the race riots was bullshit. It's not even worth the time to pull up the nearly endless list of prominent leftists making claims as to the fatal nature of black people interacting with the police. But never numbers. When your cause can't be quantified in any way without discrediting the cause then the problem is the cause itself.

 

These riots weren't about getting pulled over more, or getting side eye from a convenience store owner, or gang violence, hell they weren't even about the very real issues of incarceration impacting the ability of black communities to dig out of a very deep hole. Overwhelmingly they were about police brutality towards black people. And the most prominent cases, used as evidence of a systemic attack on black bodies, were misrepresented in ways that discredit the entire argument. And it was merely a continuation of the same lie, with different names and different cases fed into the narrative. Michael brown, trayvon martin, and now George Floyd. 

 

The bad old days of overt American racism are over. They have been for a while. The Civil Rights movement never required the mental gymnastics we see today to justify their protests, and yes, riots. It was plain to see for everyone, and because of such they were triumphant. The difficulties with race in 2021, and specifically within the black community, are much more difficult to address. There is no boogeyman, no villain to unify against. Not whiteness, not the police, not the system.

 

But if I were to apply your logic to it then in fact the capital riots weren't about Trump or election theft, they were very legitimate protests against widespread yet nearly impossible to document election fraud, and just because a few crazies went a little too far, that shouldn't get in the way of the very legitimate and well-documented cause that they are supporting.

 

There is no mortal threat to the black population in the United States from any element of the government, least of all the police. Minimize that claim all you like, but the rest of us don't need to be moralized over taking an argument at face value. One that was made over and over and over for a few years now. There was also no stolen election. Trump lost because Trump is a fucking moron, that's it. Yeah there are plenty of videos unequivocally proving voter fraud, but they are hundreds of votes out of over a hundred million. Neither statistic justifies the response, thus making the riots, on both sides, bullshit.

 

It's completely chicken shit to tell everybody who disagrees with your narrative that they're just defending whiteness. I'm a fucking cuban jew, for Christ's sakes. You think I have a lot of cred in the white supremacist community? You can call out a lie for what it is without having an affinity for your own skin color.

Sure thing...  Black people should not be afraid of the police. Copy.  They have nothing to worry about.  Parents should stop having "the talk" with their kids. Oh, sorry, I meant black parents because white parents don't do that.  
 

Nobody is cherry picking anything. The unending amount of supporting data showing that the protests (a small handful devolved into riots which are bad in any quantity) over the summer were anything but BS. You and others saying they're BS won't make it so.
 

Maybe I should have been more clear. I wasn't calling you out for down voting things you disagree with.  You've never, tht I've seen, done that.  

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37 minutes ago, slackline said:

Sure thing...  Black people should not be afraid of the police. Copy.  They have nothing to worry about.  Parents should stop having "the talk" with their kids. Oh, sorry, I meant black parents because white parents don't do that.  
 

Are you black? 

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2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

I'm a fucking cuban jew, for Christ's sakes. 

I envy you for the excellent food you must’ve had growing up! 
 

I will agree with you that there was no case for riots or violence on either side. Some people are just after anarchy. Hell, in Seattle we just had some of the same folks that were looting last summer out doing an anti Biden public destruction event. Fuck them. 
 

However, I absolutely believe there are structural issues with the way the black community interacts with the American system. Police brutality and policing in general is something that needs to be addressed, and it effects black people disproportionately. I fully support the peaceful protests that were unfortunately upstaged by deranged rioters.

I do not support the conspiracy fueled election protests, peaceful or otherwise. Even if someone didn’t storm the Capitol, if they’re waiving the Q flag, I have no time for them. 

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36 minutes ago, Seadogs said:

Are you black? 

Dude, Seadogs, you made bail after the riot?!  That was crazy man, crazy...

In what way does anything I’m saying hinge on my skin color?  If I’m black it’s legit, if I’m not I should stop talking?

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This was a WILD ride -

https://www.axios.com/trump-oval-office-meeting-sidney-powell-a8e1e466-2e42-42d0-9cf1-26eb267f8723.html

I don't know how much of it is true.  It was echoed in the other news outlets.

Apparently there's a whole series, and podcasts.
https://www.axios.com/off-the-rails-episodes-cf6da824-83ac-45a6-a33c-ed8b00094e39.html

 

Want to be clear, I'm posting this for entertainment purposes only.  😆

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2 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

This was a WILD ride -

https://www.axios.com/trump-oval-office-meeting-sidney-powell-a8e1e466-2e42-42d0-9cf1-26eb267f8723.html

I don't know how much of it is true.  It was echoed in the other news outlets.

Apparently there's a whole series, and podcasts.
https://www.axios.com/off-the-rails-episodes-cf6da824-83ac-45a6-a33c-ed8b00094e39.html

Catching up here. The reason for my Biden vote:  If I exhibited 25% of Trump's behaviors I'd be fired, divorced, and on trial.  And that's how it should be.  Character matters. That's what any decent parent works hard to teach their kids.  It certainly mattered to many conservatives when Clinton got a BJ in the White House and fibbed about it.  

Most of Trump's purported accomplishments aren't. I mentioned previously that the slopes of the major stock indices have been relatively consistent since 2011.  Job creation the last three years of Obama was higher (8.1m) than the first three years of Trump (6.7m - and that's NOT including the pandemic, thus giving Trump the benefit of the doubt).  Income growth was lower as well.  GDP growth (again not including the pandemic) averaged 2.4% under Obama and 2.5% under Trump.  Trump did not save us from the 'terrible Obama economy'.   The numbers are clear, yet a significant portion of the right still believes Trump's rhetoric. 

Forbes, hardly a liberal publication, provided a nice summary: 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/02/19/no-president-trump-obamas-economic-recovery-was-not-a-con-job/?sh=54dcc16b5e62

SCOTUS picks were not an accomplishment showcasing deft leadership.  Openings occurred and were filled by candidates that reflected the administration's priorities.  Same as it ever was.  

A linear regression shows that crime has been steadily decreasing for decades.  There was not a surge under Obama nor an atypical improvement with Trump.  

Don't get me started on the "Jesus gave us Trump" shtick.  

I do acknowledge that African-American unemployment dropped to historic lows under Trump, and that is a good thing.  However, I suggest speaking to members of that community regarding their overall opinions about the last four years. 

That said, I am by no means an enthusiastic Biden supporter.  This election was a reset to politics as usual.  Given the dumpster fire / shit show / shenangians / tomfoolery / fiasco / calamity / goat rope over the last four years, that is a good thing for now.  We will get some relative stability.  I'm confident that Biden supporters, even the extreme factions, will not attempt to stop government by force after being incited by lies.  So there's that. 

 I am still optimistic that a behaviorally-mature, patriotic, unifying non-career-politician candidate will rise to the occasion.  Maybe someone under 60 with broad experience/education, military service and actual maturity who is not from the career political class. But we don't have that someone yet.  

 

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7 minutes ago, Swamp Yankee said:

That said, I am by no means an enthusiastic Biden supporter.  This election was a reset to politics as usual.  Given the dumpster fire / shit show / shenangians / tomfoolery / fiasco / calamity / goat rope over the last four years, that is a good thing for now.  We will get some relative stability.  I'm confident that Biden supporters, even the extreme factions, will not attempt to stop government by force after being incited by lies.  So there's that. 

 

2. Biden was an opportunity to get from dumpster fire to "Bad within normal parameters," to paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke. We now have a guy who isn't the center of a personality cult. We can build on that. 

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8 hours ago, slackline said:

when he disagrees with your view that all is right in the land of social equality...

I'm curious. What exactly is "social equality"? What does it look like? I like equality.

4 hours ago, slackline said:

Copy.  They have nothing to worry about.  Parents should stop having "the talk" with their kids. Oh, sorry, I meant black parents because white parents don't do that.

I grew up as a white kid in the American southwest. Middle class parents taught me how to interact with the police. Be polite. Don't argue. Don't resist arrest. Don't grab cops' tazer/gun/other weapons. Don't make a cop fear for his life. Just the basics, you know?

In regards to high-profile deaths of black people, in almost all cases (with the exception of Freddie Gray), they have been misrepresented, misconstrued, or otherwise shaped/framed in order to produce talking points and support the narrative that says blacks are systematically mistreated in the US. That is a fiction.

4 hours ago, slackline said:

Nobody is cherry picking anything. The unending amount of supporting data showing that the protests (a small handful devolved into riots which are bad in any quantity) over the summer were anything but BS. You and others saying they're BS won't make it so.

What data? Data showing that different racial groups produce crime at different rates? The riots this summer were because of COVID. They would not have happened without a global pandemic that gave people nothing but time to think of something to be angry about. Cue the media and some sweet, sweet, narrative to push an agenda.

3 hours ago, Prozac said:

Police brutality and policing in general is something that needs to be addressed, and it effects black people disproportionately.

Black crime affects the USA disproportionately. I agree that default police interaction and policing methods could broadly be made better in this country, but the notion that there is a disproportionate amount of policing affecting blacks in this country is unattached to reality.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2

Looking at pure data, in 2017 blacks committed more absolute murders than whites (5,660 > 5,070). If the proportion of the two races was about equal, that would make sense. So, if we're going for "equity", which of those black murders should we let go in order to bring it into balance with the white murder rate? Or, which white people should be charged with murders they didn't commit in order to bring it into balance? I don't see an alternative outcome given the left's current position.

The fact that a much smaller minority is able to account for a disproportionate amount of violent crime in this country does say something - trouble is, it doesn't say there is systematic police discrimination. What it says, in actuality, is that blacks are committing murder at about 7x the rate of whites.

Now, given that, what is the solution to the appearance of over-policing? I don't know, but I'm open to novel solutions.

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11 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

I'm curious. What exactly is "social equality"? What does it look like? I like equality.

I grew up as a white kid in the American southwest. Middle class parents taught me how to interact with the police. Be polite. Don't argue. Don't resist arrest. Don't grab cops' tazer/gun/other weapons. Don't make a cop fear for his life. Just the basics, you know?

In regards to high-profile deaths of black people, in almost all cases (with the exception of Freddie Gray), they have been misrepresented, misconstrued, or otherwise shaped/framed in order to produce talking points and support the narrative that says blacks are systematically mistreated in the US. That is a fiction.

What data? Data showing that different racial groups produce crime at different rates? The riots this summer were because of COVID. They would not have happened without a global pandemic that gave people nothing but time to think of something to be angry about. Cue the media and some sweet, sweet, narrative to push an agenda.

Black crime affects the USA disproportionately. I agree that default police interaction and policing methods could broadly be made better in this country, but the notion that there is a disproportionate amount of policing affecting blacks in this country is unattached to reality.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2

Looking at pure data, in 2017 blacks committed more absolute murders than whites (5,660 > 5,070). If the proportion of the two races was about equal, that would make sense. So, if we're going for "equity", which of those black murders should we let go in order to bring it into balance with the white murder rate? Or, which white people should be charged with murders they didn't commit in order to bring it into balance? I don't see an alternative outcome given the left's current position.

The fact that a much smaller minority is able to account for a disproportionate amount of violent crime in this country does say something - trouble is, it doesn't say there is systematic police discrimination. What it says, in actuality, is that blacks are committing murder at about 7x the rate of whites.

Now, given that, what is the solution to the appearance of over-policing? I don't know, but I'm open to novel solutions.

The amount of demographic and social evidence that has been presented just here over the last year that you conveniently ignore when you present your "nothing is wrong here" picture is laughable.  

But if you keep ignoring it, you can feel comfortable.  

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3 minutes ago, slackline said:

The amount of demographic and social evidence that has been presented just here over the last year that you conveniently ignore when you present your "nothing is wrong here" picture is laughable.  

But if you keep ignoring it, you can feel comfortable.  

Well, there definitely is something wrong here. We just disagree about what it is. You think that black people are being systematically mistreated and/or over-policed. Trouble is, policing in ~ 80% of cases is in response to a call - not because some cop goes out of his way to interact with a minority.

https://lawliberty.org/the-facts-on-race-crime-and-policing-in-america/

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4 hours ago, slackline said:

Dude, Seadogs, you made bail after the riot?!  That was crazy man, crazy...

In what way does anything I’m saying hinge on my skin color?  If I’m black it’s legit, if I’m not I should stop talking?

Are you or are you not? Cause if you aren't and you are telling black people to be scared of cops, then you are carrying an authority you do not have. And you come off as highly offensive. 

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2 hours ago, slackline said:

The amount of demographic and social evidence that has been presented just here over the last year that you conveniently ignore when you present your "nothing is wrong here" picture is laughable.  

But if you keep ignoring it, you can feel comfortable.  

To paraphrase an old quote, it's going to be difficult to get someone to understand something when their relative station in life depends upon them not understanding it.

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2 hours ago, Seadogs said:

Are you or are you not? Cause if you aren't and you are telling black people to be scared of cops, then you are carrying an authority you do not have. And you come off as highly offensive. 

Holy shit.

Get to the ER, you've had a stroke.

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7 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Oh...sorry...help me with the difference?

Normal

Adjective

REGULAR, NORMAL, TYPICAL, NATURAL mean being of the sort or kind that is expected as usual, ordinary, or average.

Recovering back to the typical (aka "normal") situation is going to take time because things have become so screwed up. We've turned back in the direction of normal (with all of it's pros and cons) by reverting back to (somewhat) how politics operated pre-Trump.  However, it's an analog, not digital, system.  

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