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45 minutes ago, Homestar said:

I can get on board with SCOTUS picks and winding down wars (though I honestly believe he did by straight up neglecting his Commander-in-Chief duties). 

But saying nobody is perfect then getting on board with Trump as POTUS is a non starter for me. Nobody is perfect, true. But Trump did actual damage to the American psyche and seriously fractured Republican politics for a generation. This is not something to be proud of just because “he told it like it is”. 

Biden an empty vessel placeholder? Fine. Anyone but Trump. I’d prefer an actual conservative, but in the meantime I can put up with the meaningless EOs that don’t affect me in any measurable way day-to-day. In two years maybe the Republicans rediscover what it means to be conservative now that they don’t have to bow and kiss the ring of Trump. 

Edit to add: I hope Adam Kinzinger is still reading this forum. He is the future of the Republican Party. If he and Dan Crenshaw could combine forces we could actually return to real conservative leadership. 

Fair enough. I would ask you, though, if he did it by neglect, where else should we currently be at war?

I would go a lot further, however. Modern-day politics has been completely F'd starting in '03 because of our ill-conceived venture into Iraq. I'm glad the rest of the world is waking up to how screwed up our politics is across the board. If it was Trump that woke people up, great, but Trump ain't the root cause. My main concern is that there are people who are only seeking to take advantage of the current situation who don't give one F about the actual future of this country. IMO those people are now in charge and that worries me.

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Complete and utter malarkey. ONE mainstream network went after Obama, Foxnews, some of it unwarranted Political tripe, some of it valid.  Meanwhile ALL of the remaining mainstream networks suppor

Want to slash American carbon?  Build nuclear power plants.  

When MSNBC announced Trump's win in Iowa, there was an audible grunt from Rachel Madow. By the sound of it, she apparently sat on her sack wrong. Happens to the best of us.

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20 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

Modern-day politics has been completely F'd starting in '03 because of our ill-conceived venture into Iraq.

I agree. I voted for Bush in 2000 but not in 2004. 
 

Disagree that the current people in charge don’t care about the country. 

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Agree we need a plan, but the plan we are signing up for puts an unfair burden on the U.S. ($20,000 per American family), when we are not the biggest emitters of green house gases AND we are already decreasing our emissions.   I am not a climate change denier...It is real, it is a threat and we need to take action NOW.  The problem is the United States should not have to shoulder an unfair burden.
CO2_emission_pie_chart.svg
 
By the way, even though we left the Paris Climate Accord, We have reduced our emissions more than any other industrialized nation...the real threat is China.
AEI-Chart-with-2017-CO2-Emissions.png
 
I'd add India to this list too.

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2 hours ago, Homestar said:

I can get on board with SCOTUS picks and winding down wars (though I honestly believe he did by straight up neglecting his Commander-in-Chief duties). 
 

But saying nobody is perfect then getting on board with Trump as POTUS is a non starter for me. Nobody is perfect, true. But Trump did actual damage to the American psyche and seriously fractured Republican politics for a generation. This is not something to be proud of just because “he told it like it is”. 
 

Biden an empty vessel placeholder? Fine. Anyone but Trump. I’d prefer an actual conservative, but in the meantime I can put up with the meaningless EOs that don’t affect me in any measurable way day-to-day. In two years maybe the Republicans rediscover what it means to be conservative now that they don’t have to bow and kiss the ring of Trump. 
 

Edit to add: I hope Adam Kinzinger is still reading this forum. He is the future of the Republican Party. If he and Dan Crenshaw could combine forces we could actually return to real conservative leadership. 

Have you read about the insane stuff Kinzinger has been putting up with from his home base recently? Like literal extended family, IIRC. I’ll see if I can find. 
 

My congressman also crossed lines to vote for impeachment, and the amount of BS he gets from MAGA people is pretty ridiculous on social media. SM isn’t a broad spectrum of actual voters, but yikes. 
 

Edit: Kinzinger madness posted in Congressman thread. 

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6 hours ago, slackline said:

Kinzinger probably stopped posting in here because he lost faith with the amount of Trump Apologists in here.  

Dude's the real deal!

I've know him for a long time and I applaud him for sticking to his beliefs.  His family sounds like a real work of art.

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9 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

Have you read about the insane stuff Kinzinger has been putting up with from his home base recently? Like literal extended family, IIRC.

Yes, I've read about it. Madness from the MAGA hive mind. Trump has made people insane.

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22 hours ago, Homestar said:

I can get on board with SCOTUS picks and winding down wars (though I honestly believe he did by straight up neglecting his Commander-in-Chief duties). 
 

But saying nobody is perfect then getting on board with Trump as POTUS is a non starter for me. Nobody is perfect, true. But Trump did actual damage to the American psyche and seriously fractured Republican politics for a generation. This is not something to be proud of just because “he told it like it is”. 
 

Biden an empty vessel placeholder? Fine. Anyone but Trump. I’d prefer an actual conservative, but in the meantime I can put up with the meaningless EOs that don’t affect me in any measurable way day-to-day. In two years maybe the Republicans rediscover what it means to be conservative now that they don’t have to bow and kiss the ring of Trump. 
 

Edit to add: I hope Adam Kinzinger is still reading this forum. He is the future of the Republican Party. If he and Dan Crenshaw could combine forces we could actually return to real conservative leadership. 

How?

 

Am I the only person who saw politicians for the duplicitous villains they always have been?

 

The problem I have with your argument, and the Never Trumpers in general, is that it really sounds like "I can look my kids in the eye and support someone as long as they aren't so obvious about their immorality." It would be one thing to disown Trump and only support moral, consistent politicians. But Biden, Harris, Bernie, and the others are anything but. If a conservative voted for a liberal because of Trump, I'm not sure they were really conservative. If they didn't vote at all, that is a completely understandable and consistent position. 

 

This is why nothing is real and everything is a riot. Because the masses, unwashed as we are, are very good at spotting an inconsistency. Everything that was said of Trump was completely and totally true of his supposed betters. He's enriching himself in office? Lol. He's kicking positions to family and friends? That's new... He's a liar? He cheats on his wife? His kids are a mess? He plays too much golf? And before Trump, good, decent, honest people were immolated with bullshit. Romney and Kavanaugh are just two obvious examples. So hating Trump for the odious pig he is, gotcha. But don't moralize if your solution is to support a more-polished turd.

 

Trump was just politics without the makeup. If you (not Homestar specifically) didn't realize that until now, I have a bridge to sell you.

 

We agree on Crenshaw. *If* he can keep his head on straight, and doesn't wait too long to run, he would make an incredible president. We need term limits and age limits. I've never heard anyone say they wished they had an 80 year old involved in their project, yet somehow they are running the country.

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42 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

I've never heard anyone say they wished they had an 80 year old involved in their project, yet somehow they are running the country.

That’s ageism, and I'm triggered. How dare you!?

 

Ok, I heartily agree with you!

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On 2/1/2021 at 5:21 PM, Homestar said:

I voted for Biden because Trump was an immoral option. I couldn’t look my kids in the eye and explain any reasoning for voting for him. I’m a conservative without a home. I’m a proud Never Trumper that actually votes for and encourages actual conservatism. Trump was none of that. Screw that guy. He was horrible for our country in all respects. I seriously don’t care what liberal utopia crap we get in the next two years because it means Trump isn’t in office. Jeez. You guys make it seem that Biden’s EOs are going to ring in the apocalypse. 

I voted for policy over personality. No idea how old your kids are but are you are teaching them to vote for the nice guy? Have you explained to your kids how many jobs Biden has killed and how that affects thousands? Have you talked about how long Biden has been in politics and what he's done? I don't know if you have daughters who are into sports but did you tell them Biden says a boy can compete against them and take a shower with them after practice? You said he was "horrible for our country in all respects" . Was the record low unemployment Bullshit? The record small businesses opening bullshit? 

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5 minutes ago, arg said:

I voted for policy over personality. No idea how old your kids are but are you are teaching them to vote for the nice guy? Have you explained to your kids how many jobs Biden has killed and how that affects thousands? Have you talked about how long Biden has been in politics and what he's done? I don't know if you have daughters who are into sports but did you tell them Biden says a boy can compete against them and take a shower with them after practice? You said he was "horrible for our country in all respects" . Was the record low unemployment Bullshit? The record small businesses opening bullshit? 

I'm teaching them that morality matters.  Am I taking crazy pills?  If we're putting Biden on one end of the scales and Trump on the other and you're telling me that they balance out, I'm telling you that you are taking crazy pills.

Trump was not ok.  Biden might not be okay either, but he is in a different universe from Trump.

I laugh when I hear "you must not be a real conservative."  Really?  Because I didn't kiss the ring of Trump?  

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11 minutes ago, Homestar said:

I'm teaching them that morality matters.  Am I taking crazy pills?  If we're putting Biden on one end of the scales and Trump on the other and you're telling me that they balance out, I'm telling you that you are taking crazy pills.

Trump was not ok.  Biden might not be okay either, but he is in a different universe from Trump.

I laugh when I hear "you must not be a real conservative."  Really?  Because I didn't kiss the ring of Trump?  

So you're not answering my questions? It' fine if you don't want to, just say so.

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44 minutes ago, Homestar said:

I'm teaching them that morality matters.  Am I taking crazy pills?  If we're putting Biden on one end of the scales and Trump on the other and you're telling me that they balance out, I'm telling you that you are taking crazy pills.

Trump was not ok.  Biden might not be okay either, but he is in a different universe from Trump.

I laugh when I hear "you must not be a real conservative."  Really?  Because I didn't kiss the ring of Trump?  

I didn't say that. I said if you voted for Biden, you aren't conservative. Voting for no one, or Jo Jorgenson, or writing in an honest candidate, all that is consistent with conservatism. Voting for Biden because you can't stand Trump is not. 

Edited by Lord Ratner
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4 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

I didn't say that. I said if you voted for Biden, you aren't conservative. Voting for no one, or MJ Hagar, or writing in an honest candidate, all that is consistent with conservatism. Voting for Biden because you can't stand Trump is not. 

That is an absurd statement.  Period, dot.

 

And Hagar?  Knowing her personally, I'll just go ahead and agree to disagree...

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39 minutes ago, arg said:

Have you explained to your kids how many jobs Biden has killed and how that affects thousands?

Who talks like this to their non adult kids? Are you serious?

39 minutes ago, arg said:

Have you talked about how long Biden has been in politics and what he's done?

No, I didn’t read the Biden biography and ask my kids to do a book report on it. Next. 

 

39 minutes ago, arg said:

I don't know if you have daughters who are into sports but did you tell them Biden says a boy can compete against them and take a shower with them after practice?

Not entirely sure what the context here is. But no, I haven’t told them that Biden wants them to shower with boys. Again, this is a stupid question. 

 

39 minutes ago, arg said:

Was the record low unemployment Bullshit?

Presidents have very little influence on the economy as a whole. Trump also had record high unemployment if you recall 2020 at all. 

 

17 minutes ago, arg said:

Was the record low unemployment Bullshit?

I don’t know who you are, and I don’t care what you believe or teach your kids. I owe you nothing. 

Edited by Homestar
Multiple quotes not working well on iPhone.
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11 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Voting for Biden because you can't stand Trump is not. 

Believe what you like. History will be on my side on this one. Let’s talk in 20 years and see how Trump is regarded. After all the kool-aid drinking MAGA denizens are gone. 

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2 minutes ago, Homestar said:

Who talks like this to their non adult kids? Are you serious?

No, I didn’t read the Biden biography and ask my kids to do a book report on it. Next. 

 

Not entirely sure what the context here is. But no, I haven’t told them that Biden wants them to shower with boys. Again, this is a stupid question. 

 

Presidents have very little influence on the economy as a whole. Trump also had record high unemployment if you recall 2020 at all. 

 

 

I don’t know who you are, and I don’t care what you believe or teach your kids. I owe you nothing. 

I said I don't know how old your kids are. Did you miss that part? If they're too young fine.

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10 minutes ago, Homestar said:

Believe what you like. History will be on my side on this one. Let’s talk in 20 years and see how Trump is regarded. After all the kool-aid drinking MAGA denizens are gone. 

Not great at reading what others write? Where am saying otherwise?

 

18 minutes ago, slackline said:

That is an absurd statement.  Period, dot.

 

And Hagar?  Knowing her personally, I'll just go ahead and agree to disagree...

You aren't conservative if you vote for the opposite of conservatism. 

 

Also, I meant to say Jo Jorgenson, not MJ Hagar. My bad. 

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9 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

You aren't conservative if you vote for the opposite of conservatism.

I’m no republican if that is your measuring stick. I’ve clearly stated here that my vote for Biden was a protest vote against Trump, who was a non-serious clown president. 

Edited by Homestar
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31 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Not great at reading what others write? Where am saying otherwise?

 

You aren't conservative if you vote for the opposite of conservatism. 

 

Also, I meant to say Jo Jorgenson, not MJ Hagar. My bad. 

Are you saying Trump represents conservatism?  Let's not mince words because that is the implication made here by your statement.  

Considering him a vehicle for conservative policies, I could see that.  

Calling Trump conservative is a stretch. He clearly flipped sides to where he thought he'd get the most mileage. There's a difference between showing a career politician who's positions have evolved a flip-flopper, and a man who one second espoused views 180 out from the next second. Trump, for those keeping score falls into the latter category.

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Sorry guys but this isn't really up for debate. Trump will go down as one of if not the worst president in US history. The longer you deny that or make mealy-mouthed statements about how his SC picks were pretty good or how he didn't actively start a new war, the longer you will look like an ignorant fool. Send me your address and I'll ship you 15 more punisher/Molon labe stickers for the back window of your sweet truck.  
 

The best parts of trumps presidency were when he stuck perfectly to a script or when he did absolutely nothing. Anything he actively involved himself in went to shit almost immediately.. including but not limited to: the border wall, immigration in general, covid, saudis murdering a journalist, not being a sexual predator and hanging out with them, the election, Iran, literally anything having to do with the climate, literally anything having to do with race, his own family business, nepotism, any public speaking event ever, his own taxes, public health guidance, respecting people in the military, being tethered to reality etc.. etc.. etc... 

He got three Supreme Court picks.. wow amazing. Now tell me, is that more luck and timing and having a Congress that green-lit them for you or is that just trumps brilliance?  I bet it was the former because his own SC picks didn't seem to think he was too brilliant when he brought them nonsensical election fraud allegations.

 

I would never argue with you over the fact that most politicians are phony and will lie to get ahead.  But there's only one politician in my life and in my parents life and in my grandparents life who denied fair election results right up until the moment his followers invaded the capitol, killed people, and endangered our elected officials who were actively working to certify that election.  It literally took the entire world standing still, looking at America, and wondering, "are they about to implode in a civil war" for this damaged egomaniac to back down. 
 

I'm 1000000% with @Homestar on this one. Trump was bad on a different level.  If one good thing came out of his presidency, it's that his treasonous antics separated the principled conservatives from the droves of bandwagoning celeb-obsessed trash, and maybe that will allow a healthier conservative movement to happen in the future.  

 

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Never really understood the “we need to elect someone who’ll burn the system down” sentiment that got Trump elected and seems to be driving the Republican Party into oblivion. By all accounts we live in the best time it’s ever been to be a human being. War, disease (even considering the current situation), famine, and poverty are at their lowest points in human history. We each literally have access to most of the data ever collected in the world in the palm of our hands. More of the world is experiencing freedom than ever before. Overall, our lives have been getting progressively better. But somehow the system is suddenly broken beyond fixing? Armed insurrection is the only way forward? Treasonous, conspiracy driven politicians like Trump and Taylor Greene are somehow on the same plane as “traditional” players like Biden, Obama, or Bush?  Sorry, no. I’ll give you that politics is often messy and sometimes dirty. That doesn’t mean it’s not working. Enjoy a nice vacation in the last five years? Own a home? Kids get to go to school every day? Fire department shows up when there’s a fire? The insurrectionist wing of the Republican Party wants to throw all that out with the bath water. Sorry, but I’ll take “traditional” politics, flawed as it is, every day of the week and twice on Sunday. 

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4 hours ago, Prozac said:

By all accounts we live in the best time it’s ever been to be a human being.

Yep, and yet we’re hell bent on destroying it and plunging ourselves into a dark shithole. 

“Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” - we’re in the last part of that quote, and history repeats itself. 
 

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47 minutes ago, brabus said:

Yep, and yet we’re hell bent on destroying it and plunging ourselves into a dark shithole. 

“Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” - we’re in the last part of that quote, and history repeats itself. 
 

Fear just leads to the dark side. 

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