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disgruntledemployee

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wait...I'm a bit lost, so bear with me...the republican party, who closes voting locations in democrat-heavy districts, installs fake ballot drop boxes, intentionally slowed the USPS to slow mail in voting, purged voter rolls, and imposed a poll tax on felons to vote...is claiming voter disenfranchisement...because people made it easier to vote during a pandemic?

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1 hour ago, drewpey said:

wait...I'm a bit lost, so bear with me...the republican party, who closes voting locations in democrat-heavy districts, installs fake ballot drop boxes, intentionally slowed the USPS to slow mail in voting, purged voter rolls, and imposed a poll tax on felons to vote...is claiming voter disenfranchisement...because people made it easier to vote during a pandemic?

Both sides practice disenfranchisement. Democrats tried to disenfranchise the absentee vote in Florida in 2000 knowing a large majority of the Florida absentee ballots were overseas military. (Who typically vote more Conservative, especially back then) 

I think anyone who doesn't believe massive amounts of cheating or fraud are going on on our elections are a bit naive to how terrible the world we live in is. It 100% happens. The questions are the scale, how much organization is behind it, and to what degree is direction recieved from the top levels of each major party. 

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You're really going to "muh both sides" me with a 20 year old example?  Surely you can find a better, more recent example than democrats going to court on mail in ballots postmarked after the election...something that would give most republicans an aneurysm in 2020.

Sure fraud happens on a negligible level and is usually caught, but "massive" is a bit of an overstatement.  Even the hyper-partisan Kobach commission came up dry, like most republican investigations into "fraud".

As said before the biggest flaw in these conspiracy theories is that it assumes the government can coordinate and execute something this big without anyone knowing about it or coming clean.  On top of that, the idea we cheated yet neglected to check the boxes for senate seats is just laughable.  Also since there's 50 states, why are we only concerned about fraud in a couple states if it's so widespread?  Seems like if we really are that devious there would be ample evidence everywhere. I was promised a Kraken.  Where is my Kraken?

Trump should have won given how close the race was and how poorly his decision making process was...but he is too arrogant to listen to anyone and has surrounded himself with yes men.  He is literally the dude who chooses the throwaway COA every time.  "we could ignore it and wait for it to go away, we could issue an apology and pretend to care, or we could double down and insult their mom" "Yeah, lets go with 3"

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1 hour ago, FLEA said:

I think anyone who doesn't believe massive amounts of cheating or fraud are going on on our elections are a bit naive to how terrible the world we live in is. It 100% happens. The questions are the scale, how much organization is behind it, and to what degree is direction recieved from the top levels of each major party. 

Apparently I'm a bit naive then. I don't believe in massive amounts of cheating or fraud. 

150 million votes were cast. Of course some dipshít voted twice, or stole his neighbors mail and sent in their ballot, etc. I just can't take anyone seriously when they allege that there is an organized effort, at any meaningful scale, in any jurisdiction at all, to commit fraud. Especially when they offer literally no evidence. It doesn't exist. This is just some mealy-mouthed way of trying to put an asterisk next to Trump's loss. Sadly, being a sore loser hurts everyone in the form of weakening our democracy. 

Edited by Waingro
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29 minutes ago, Waingro said:

Apparently in a bit naive then. I don't believe in massive amounts of cheating or fraud. 

150 million votes were cast. Of course some dipshít voted twice, or stole his neighbors mail and sent in their ballot, etc. I just can't take anyone seriously when they allege that there is an organized effort, at any meaningful scale, in any jurisdiction at all, to commit fraud. Especially when they offer literally no evidence. It doesn't exist. This is just some mealy-mouthed way of trying to put an asterisk next to Trump's loss. Sadly, being a sore loser hurts everyone in the form of weakening our democracy. 

I could care less about Trump winning. Didn't even vote this election. Didn't vote for him in the last one. 

The evidence that cheating is happening is 1.) It's low risk. 2.) It's high reward. 3.) People are generally evil and there is no way they would not cheat if they saw a mechanism to do it.

You don't see evidence because those who accuse of cheating who actually have access of evidence also realise that by presenting it they implicate themselves. 

It's that simple. It's like steroids man. You know athletes are doing it even without evidence. There are weak protections against it but it's still so easy to circumvent you know it's happening. 

If I were running a campaign I would 100% try to cheat. Why shouldn't I? Almost 0 chance of getting caught and I could tilt the election in my favor then instill power mechanisms to keep me there. 

Maybe I'm just jaded and have a low opinion of humanity. 

Edited by FLEA
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43 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I could care less about Trump winning. Didn't even vote this election. Didn't vote for him in the last one. 

The evidence that cheating is happening is 1.) It's low risk. 2.) It's high reward. 3.) People are generally evil and there is no way they would not cheat if they saw a mechanism to do it.

You don't see evidence because those who accuse of cheating who actually have access of evidence also realise that by presenting it they implicate themselves. 

It's that simple. It's like steroids man. You know athletes are doing it even without evidence. There are weak protections against it but it's still so easy to circumvent you know it's happening. 

If I were running a campaign I would 100% try to cheat. Why shouldn't I? Almost 0 chance of getting caught and I could tilt the election in my favor then instill power mechanisms to keep me there. 

You are a master's class in argumentative fallacy. Your evidence of cheating is an incorrect and uneducated assumption on risk/reward? 

Manipulating an election on the scale required to affect the outcome would require a multiple person conspiracy to commit fraud. The fraud itself is a felony, the act of conspiracy is a separate, much more serious felony that the DOJ has a pretty good track record of obtaining long sentences for. So it is not, as you baselessly claim, "low risk." Regarding your assertion of high reward, for who? The individuals capable of attempting the crime are clerks, volunteers and minor appointed officials. 

"Jim, you've done a good job serving the people of Michigan as a country registrar. We appreciate the time you've taken away from your insurance sales job to help us conduct a fair and impartial election. If you'd be willing to help Joe Biden win by asking your peers to help falsify data, here's a big bag of un-laundered cash you can share. I promise I'm not a cop and promise I'm not wearing a wire."

🙄

Say, maybe the Apollo mission were faked and 9/11 was an inside job.

Also, just because you're dishonest doesn't mean that other people are too. You're the anomaly. Most of us play by the rules. 

If you want to see the proof of this being a fair election, simply read what Trump's legal team has argued in court.

No Fraud, no evidence of anything. 

Edited by LJDRVR
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25 minutes ago, LJDRVR said:

You are a master's class in argumentative fallacy. Your evidence of cheating is an incorrect and uneducated assumption on risk/reward? 

Manipulating an election on the scale required to affect the outcome would require a multiple person conspiracy to commit fraud. The fraud itself is a felony, the act of conspiracy is a separate, much more serious felony that the DOJ has a pretty good track record of obtaining long sentences for. So it is not, as you baselessly claim, "low risk." Regarding your assertion of high reward, for who? The individuals capable of attempting the crime are clerks, volunteers and minor appointed officials. 

"Jim, you've done a good job serving the people of Michigan as a country registrar. We appreciate the time you've taken away from your insurance sales job to help us conduct a fair and impartial election. If you'd be willing to help Joe Biden win by asking your peers to help falsify data, here's a big bag of un-laundered cash you can share. I promise I'm not a cop and promise I'm not wearing a wire."

🙄

Say, maybe the Apollo mission were faked and 9/11 was an inside job.

Also, just because you're dishonest doesn't mean that other people are too. You're the anomaly. Most of us play by the rules. 

If you want to see the proof of this being a fair election, simply read what Trump's legal team has argued in court.

No Fraud, no evidence of anything. 

Lol ok....

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On 11/25/2020 at 8:32 PM, Grabby said:

Exactly!  It's been several weeks now and this is getting ridiculous.

Could you imagine if a large percentage of the news pushed by media outlets was based on election hearsay rather than hard evidence for, say, the next 3 years?  

 

You'd need a special investigator to handle 3 years of no hard evidence.

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Whatever the outcome, for those “ridin with Biden”, just keep him fit for duty/alive and Harris out. Ensure there are always O2 Bottles nearby, copy of the Declaration of Independence, wife not sister by his side, 2 masks nearby and the White House cellar at the ready, etc., etc., etc. Plenty of time for irregularities to show themselves if they hold true.That’s the bottom line. Stay fit for duty/upright Big Joe.

Edited by AirGuardianC141747
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3 hours ago, LJDRVR said:

You are a master's class in argumentative fallacy. Your evidence of cheating is an incorrect and uneducated assumption on risk/reward? 

Manipulating an election on the scale required to affect the outcome would require a multiple person conspiracy to commit fraud. The fraud itself is a felony, the act of conspiracy is a separate, much more serious felony that the DOJ has a pretty good track record of obtaining long sentences for. So it is not, as you baselessly claim, "low risk." Regarding your assertion of high reward, for who? The individuals capable of attempting the crime are clerks, volunteers and minor appointed officials. 

"Jim, you've done a good job serving the people of Michigan as a country registrar. We appreciate the time you've taken away from your insurance sales job to help us conduct a fair and impartial election. If you'd be willing to help Joe Biden win by asking your peers to help falsify data, here's a big bag of un-laundered cash you can share. I promise I'm not a cop and promise I'm not wearing a wire."

🙄

Say, maybe the Apollo mission were faked and 9/11 was an inside job.

Also, just because you're dishonest doesn't mean that other people are too. You're the anomaly. Most of us play by the rules. 

If you want to see the proof of this being a fair election, simply read what Trump's legal team has argued in court.

No Fraud, no evidence of anything. 

I simply live in a Hobbes worldview, and you are a Rousseau. That's fine, but to me you are the one making the outrageous claim. Here are 1300 proven allegations of voter fraud: Voter Fraud Map: Election Fraud Database | The Heritage Foundation  

These are small scale, but that's the point. When elections require scale to tip the balance why are these people tipping only 1-2 ballots? The simple answer to that would be, because they are trusting that others are also doing the same. As I said in my initial post, it happens, 100% guaranteed. Size, scale, and level of organization is unknown. But I think when people reject the idea of voter fraud they have this idea of conspiracy in the back of their head that plays out more like a Hollywood movie: Joe Biden hires an ex SEAL team to infiltrate a bunch of election offices. The reality is, Joe Biden probably has 0 idea that fraud is happening in his name, because if you were organizing fraud, you would be smart enough not to tell him or anyone within three circles of him. The agents that undertake this degree of disobedience are not unheard of. They pull strings attached to levers of power that are deliberately obfuscated from public view. In other vignettes we would call them terrorist, revolutionaries, and extremist. 

 

Edit: Also to you quote, Jim is an insurance salesman, that dude can't be trusted worth fuck and you should know that!

Edited by FLEA
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Big Joe has many ideas although many not his own. Merely a Puppet with so many strings attached and those are as mentioned the true “players.” Follow the lines back to their sources. Biden here before but we need not tempt Harris. Big K is totally something else stay fit Big Joe. 1440 days will pass then and it will be interesting to say the least.

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20 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I simply live in a Hobbes worldview, and you are a Rousseau. That's fine, but to me you are the one making the outrageous claim. Here are 1300 proven allegations of voter fraud: Voter Fraud Map: Election Fraud Database | The Heritage Foundation  

These are small scale, but that's the point. When elections require scale to tip the balance why are these people tipping only 1-2 ballots? The simple answer to that would be, because they are trusting that others are also doing the same. As I said in my initial post, it happens, 100% guaranteed. Size, scale, and level of organization is unknown. But I think when people reject the idea of voter fraud they have this idea of conspiracy in the back of their head that plays out more like a Hollywood movie: Joe Biden hires an ex SEAL team to infiltrate a bunch of election offices. The reality is, Joe Biden probably has 0 idea that fraud is happening in his name, because if you were organizing fraud, you would be smart enough not to tell him or anyone within three circles of him. The agents that undertake this degree of disobedience are not unheard of. They pull strings attached to levers of power that are deliberately obfuscated from public view. In other vignettes we would call them terrorist, revolutionaries, and extremist. 

 

Edit: Also to you quote, Jim is an insurance salesman, that dude can't be trusted worth fuck and you should know that!

Hobbes believed in complete monarchy and that government must have absolutely authority. If that’s what you’re advocating, readjust your tinfoil hat. 

Edited by Sua Sponte
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5 hours ago, drewpey said:

You're really going to "muh both sides" me with a 20 year old example?  Surely you can find a better, more recent example than democrats going to court on mail in ballots postmarked after the election...something that would give most republicans an aneurysm in 2020.

Sure fraud happens on a negligible level and is usually caught, but "massive" is a bit of an overstatement.  Even the hyper-partisan Kobach commission came up dry, like most republican investigations into "fraud".

As said before the biggest flaw in these conspiracy theories is that it assumes the government can coordinate and execute something this big without anyone knowing about it or coming clean.  On top of that, the idea we cheated yet neglected to check the boxes for senate seats is just laughable.  Also since there's 50 states, why are we only concerned about fraud in a couple states if it's so widespread?  Seems like if we really are that devious there would be ample evidence everywhere. I was promised a Kraken.  Where is my Kraken?

Trump should have won given how close the race was and how poorly his decision making process was...but he is too arrogant to listen to anyone and has surrounded himself with yes men.  He is literally the dude who chooses the throwaway COA every time.  "we could ignore it and wait for it to go away, we could issue an apology and pretend to care, or we could double down and insult their mom" "Yeah, lets go with 3"

That’s how they work. Whenever you point out facts of Trump and the GOP they can’t bullshit around, it always turns into “I’m not a fan of Trump” and “both sides do that” while they pull out more straw man arguments. Oh yeah, whatever happen to Hunter Biden’s laptop? I thought that was going to put a dagger in Biden’s campaign?

Edited by Sua Sponte
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Just now, Sua Sponte said:

Hobbes believed in complete monarchy and that government must have absolutely authority. If that’s what you’re advocating, readjust your tinfoil hat. 

Hobbes argued in complete monarchy based on the idea that people needed some form of control since they were fundamentally evil. His advocacy for monarchy should not detract from his arguments that people are fundamentally evil. You either believe in altruism, or you don't. I've seen very little evidence for altruism in the world though. Democracy is not perfect, its simply the best system we have. 

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7 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

That’s how they work. Whenever you point out facts of Trump and the GOP that can’t bullshit around, it always turns into “I’m not a fan of Trump” and “both sides do that” while they pull out more straw man arguments. Oh yeah, whatever happen to Hunter Biden’s laptop? I thought that was going to put a dagger in Biden’s campaign?

I'm not a tribalist though. So your assessment is immediately invalid. 

Edited by FLEA
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35 minutes ago, FLEA said:

That's fine, but to me you are the one making the outrageous claim. Here are 1300 proven allegations of voter fraud:

Do you believe the fraud is only on one side? If most people are fundamentally cheaters/evil then wouldn't it amount to random noise in the result since you would expect it on both sides? What do you suppose we do with the outcome of any election with your world view? 

Edited by DosXX
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19 minutes ago, DosXX said:

Do you believe the fraud is only on one side? If most people are fundamentally cheaters/evil then wouldn't it amount to random noise in the result? What do you suppose we do with the outcome of any election with your world view? 

It occurs on both sides and yes it's largely random noise. For the results? We just accept them because it's largely the rational thing to do in interest of one's personal security. 4 years is a limited time to cause damage to your ideology versus the perils of a civil war. The only exception to that is the ideological extremist who are so far on the parties wings. 4 years does threaten their ideological survival. Those are the agents instituting the fraud I mentioned above. 

Edited by FLEA
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@FLEA

1300 proven single instances of fraud is still not even close to what you need to influence the overall outcome of an election. The closest swing state in this election has 10 times that margin. And to swing the whole election you'd need fraud at least 2-3 orders of magnitude greater. 
 

No one is disagreeing with you that people suck and sometimes commit fraud. But you need real evidence that the fraud is similar in scale to the margin of victory if you want to throw out an election or declare the system a lost cause. So far, that evidence does not exist. You don't have it, and the trump legal team definitely doesn't have it or we would have seen it by now.

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So, let's talk about when Biden is POTUS. We are back in Paris Climate deal, Iran deal, Green new deal etc? $200 tax for so called "assault weapons and mags" he's flip flopped on oil drilling/fracking,Expect pump prices to be $4 a gallon. How much manufacturing will go back to China?

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3 hours ago, arg said:

So, let's talk about when Biden is POTUS. We are back in Paris Climate deal, Iran deal, Green new deal etc? $200 tax for so called "assault weapons and mags" he's flip flopped on oil drilling/fracking,Expect pump prices to be $4 a gallon. How much manufacturing will go back to China?

https://www.statesman.com/news/20201001/fact-check-did-trump-overstate-manufacturing-job-gains-during-debate

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5 hours ago, arg said:

So, let's talk about when Biden is POTUS. We are back in Paris Climate deal, Iran deal, Green new deal etc? $200 tax for so called "assault weapons and mags" he's flip flopped on oil drilling/fracking,Expect pump prices to be $4 a gallon. How much manufacturing will go back to China?

Iran deal was better than no deal, which is what we currently have, despite being promised a much much better one.  That being said I think the potential for another deal died with their nuclear scientist.  Warhawks gonna warhawk.

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