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disgruntledemployee

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12 minutes ago, Prozac said:

This kind of thought process blows my mind. I can say that someone is capable and qualified to do a job, particularly a political job, while also understanding that they don’t necessarily represent my values as well as another candidate might. You’ve taken this position before & seem to be unable to understand that people may not be willing to vote for a candidate that doesn’t represent their values no matter how “good” they may be. Here’s why I personally like Haley and wish there were more candidates like her: She will force Democratic candidates to be better. They will have to debate on policy rather than on the emotion stirred up on both sides by petty culture war tropes. Good candidates beget better candidates on both sides. Another reason I like her is because candidates like this tend to be far less divisive when they take office. Like nsplayr, I find it difficult to see myself voting for her in a general election. If she were to be elected though, I (and I think most on the left side of the spectrum) would have a much easier time generally supporting her than someone like Donald Trump. 

Fair points.  So what candidate represents your values?  What are your key values?

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1 hour ago, FourFans said:

Fair points.  So what candidate represents your values?  What are your key values?

Values? Hookers and blow brother. That’s why I’m hoping Hunter will be appointed as his dad’s successor by the Pentaverate when old Joe inevitably dies in a couple years. 🤣 🍻 

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8 hours ago, FourFans said:

I can say that someone is capable and qualified to do a job, particularly a political job, while also understanding that they don’t necessarily represent my values as well as another candidate might

 

7 hours ago, Prozac said:

Values? Hookers and blow brother. That’s why I’m hoping Hunter will be appointed as his dad’s successor by the Pentaverate when old Joe inevitably dies in a couple years. 🤣 🍻 

So, other people should be shut down for mis-understanding your values, but you won't share what those values are.  

You - "You don't understand me!" 

Them - *ok explain yourself* 

You - "You wouldn't understand!"   

Why should we ever take your opinion seriously?

Honestly dude.  Find your balls, decide what you believe, and take your stand.  If not, don't complain when you get choked out by rational arguments.

Curious question: do you train in any martial art or physical fitness event?  If so, do they endorse excuses as to why you lost or why you couldn't complete a movement/lift/event/pose?   Because that logic crosses over.

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13 minutes ago, FourFans said:

 

So, other people should be shut down for mis-understanding your values, but you won't share what those values are.  

You - "You don't understand me!" 

Them - *ok explain yourself* 

You - "You wouldn't understand!"   

Why should we ever take your opinion seriously?

Honestly dude.  Find your balls, decide what you believe, and take your stand.  If not, don't complain when you get choked out by rational arguments.

Curious question: do you train in any martial art or physical fitness event?  If so, do they endorse excuses as to why you lost or why you couldn't complete a movement/lift/event/pose?   Because that logic crosses over.

image.jpeg.a0fc34c9249bafb50786319cc38a5040.jpeg

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10 hours ago, FourFans said:

Something about these two comments being right next to each other rings of cognitive dissonance.  She's a good pick, but she's conservative so it's a no?   That makes no sense.  You're saying that just because someone is conservative, even if they're the best a good person for the job, you wouldn't vote for them?

By implication you're saying that you would vote for a worse candidate who was more liberal just based on...what?  The excellent results that the liberal left has given us?

Based on what public policies they support.

Most of today’s GOP leaders would move forward enthusiastically with policies I think are wrong and bad. Most of todays Dems would also pursue new initiatives if elected, but for policies I think I are generally correct and good.

So even if I like Nikki Haley enough as a GOP candidate, especially compared to the actual leading contenders, that doesn’t mean I support her policy vision for the country.

Is this a weird or alien concept to some folks? 🤷‍♂️

I am a liberal democrat. I do in fact support liberal Democratic Party policies, like those of the current President. I think they are mostly correct and good and that the competing GOP policies are mostly wrong and bad.

I guess that’s like a 🤯 concept around here, but it’s part of why I keep posting on politics even though it’s 96.9% a waste of time. I would not support a Republican in a general election where a passable Democrat was also running. I don’t expect many of my friends on the right to vote any differently than me, just the opposite way consistent with their differing views & values. There are a fair amount of “independents” and learners who usually decide close elections, but I’m just not among them and that’s ok.

FWIW I did vote for a Republican for mayor of my town because she was the best candidate - the catch is there are relatively few Dems here and her opponent was an extremist, whereas to me she is a reasonable, pro-business country club Republican. So ok, I’ll take the best of two sub-optimal choices given the realities of where I live and my fellow voters here. By that same logic were I to vote in the IA or NH GOP presidential primary somehow, Haley would definitely get a look from me, even if I would not support her against Biden in the general were she to become the GOP nominee.

I do genuinely want good GOP candidates and leaders because in a two party system like ours, you ain’t gonna win ‘em all and I truly don’t believe rooting for the “worst” “most beatable” Republican is a strategy Dems should pursue (or vice versa).

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11 hours ago, FourFans said:

…but still stanchly say 'no' based on a political bias which is founded on a position or on assumptions that wouldn't hold water for 5 minutes when put to actual logical scrutiny.

It’s not flimsy “political bias” to have policy preferences my man.

If there was a hypothetical election where the GOP candidate was pro-choice, pro-clean energy, wanted to strengthen the social safety net and raise taxes on the wealthy, all why the Dem advocates for the opposite, I would happily vote for the Republican!

What I find more flimsy is to say, “Wow, he/she is a great speaker/debater/etc., I would vote for them!” without regard for what policies they support and the values that underlie those policies.

I will 100% vote for a boring, replacement-level Dem who aligns with my policy preferences vs a charismatic, inspiring, well-spoken Republican who wants to do the opposite of what I would do on every policy choice. You should vote that way too, consistent with whatever values you hold & policies you support!

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46 minutes ago, FourFans said:

Honestly dude.  Find your balls, decide what you believe, and take your stand.  If not, don't complain when you get choked out by rational arguments.

Curious question: do you train in any martial art or physical fitness event?  If so, do they endorse excuses as to why you lost or why you couldn't complete a movement/lift/event/pose?   Because that logic crosses over.

😂🤣 LMAO.

iF yOu DoN’t AnSwEr My iMpLiEd QuEsTiOns I wIlL bEaT yOu Up!!!1

Ok internet tough guy, good luck & TYFYS 🇺🇸

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1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

I am a liberal democrat. I do in fact support liberal Democratic Party policies, like those of the current President. I think they are mostly correct and good and that the competing GOP policies are mostly wrong and bad.

how do you support policies that are obviously destructive to cities, families, and individuals? serious question.

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6 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

how do you support policies that are obviously destructive to cities, families, and individuals? serious question.

Because I do not agree with your premise than Dem party policies are “obviously destructive” to cities, families and individuals. Come on man, what kind of question is that? “Tell me sir, when did you stop beating your wife?”

I live near a city, have a family, and am an individual, and we’re all doing pretty great! Hope you are as well.

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2 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Because I do not agree with your premise than Dem party policies are “obviously destructive” to cities, families and individuals. Come on man, what kind of question is that?

I live near a city, have a family, and am an individual, and we’re all doing pretty great! Hope you are as well.

proof is in the pudding. most major democratic cities are in serious decline. it's not an argument.

it's not about you either. it's about the policies overall harm to society. glad you're doing well but the majority of americans living under democratic policies are not.

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Just now, BashiChuni said:

proof is in the pudding. most major democratic cities are in serious decline. it's not an argument.

It is! I disagree with you. Nashville has never been better or more prosperous. That’s where I live near and so I have the receipts more than elsewhere. Come here and see for yourself!

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The city is run by Dems, like almost every urban area. You correctly identified that the state is Republican-led, congratulations.

Whats your argument here, that all those cities are shitholes? If so, I’d argue they’re not. If you wanna talk granular specifics I wanna talk Nashville since that’s what I know in a granular level of detail.

I am well aware of the broad-brush political leavings of every state and major city.

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2 hours ago, nsplayr said:

I am a liberal democrat. I do in fact support liberal Democratic Party policies, like those of the current President. I think they are mostly correct and good and that the competing GOP policies are mostly wrong and bad.

And yet voluntarily chooses to live in one of the “reddest” states in the country.  Wouldn’t you be happier in California or Oregon?  Honest question…God knows I would never consider moving to California.

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As a native Nashvillian, who loves the city, I am so happy I no longer live there. It is not the same city I grew up and lived in for so many years. It is overcrowded and no infrastructure to support the growth. We are in the same state but in a smaller city where I went to college and we love it. It still feels like it did in the early 90s when I was in school there.

There has also been so many non natives Nashvillians that have moved in that the city has lost it’s friendliness that I grew up loving. I remember driving or walking thru the city or downtown and everyone spoke to each other or waved when passing. There really aren’t very many Nashvillians downtown unless they are going to a Titans or Predators game. When we had the opportunity to move, we were happy to do so. When we come back to visit, the City definitely has a different feel to it. My old neighborhood has been invaded by non Tennesseans that were not trying to leave the policies that everyone is speaking about, but moved because of their job or wanting to live in a city/state without an income tax. It created disagreements and the HOA webpage became very entertaining. I miss many of the people I grew up and worked with, but the city has gotten too metropolitan for us. Last month when we were there for a birthday party, my wife looked at me and we both agreed we were happy that we had moved.


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Nashville is not a urban cesspool with a large crime problem because the sanity of the surrounding Republican/conservative population won't let it.  Where leftists and liberal idiots have been allowed free rein in deep blue states, chaos and misery has embedded into the cities.  500,000 people have bailed out of California, IIRC. Google population decline in blue states for better numbers.  Claiming to be blind to facts or making false comparisons certainly won't improve the life of anyone too poor to run away from those bad policies.  But hey, keep voting for those policies, I'm sure something different will eventually result.

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@nsplayr

image.jpeg.eefba43ea69c296ff2d30195afeabf8a.jpeg

Hopefully by now you know that I appreciate your viewpoint and I enjoy sparring.

So, as you responded to statements I made and questions I addressed to prozac....

You've been kind enough and polite enough to explain what you believe.  I greatly appreciate that.  It takes courage to express an unpopular opinion so in a public forum.  Expression of deeply held beliefs is generally terrifying at a cognitive level.  Specifically because it is exclusive.  Embracing one set of beliefs excludes others and thereby puts a person in a specific and sometimes isolated class.  Thankfully, doing so also exposes truths that have convinced a person to change their way of living based on a line of reason (hopefully) and should therefore be shared with others.  If you have changed your way of living based on a line of reason, I am actively curious to hear the why behind it. 

You have shared the what you believe.  You and others have actively refused to share the 'why'. 

The state of our cities are a great example.  I've been to Portland, Dallas, Seattle, Anchorage, Los Angeles, New York, Philadelphia, Memphis, Miami, Honolulu, Chicago, Sydney, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Cologne, London, Tokyo, and Seoul multiple times in the past 24 months.  I walk around when I'm there.  A lot.  I can attest to the fact that major American cities have declined excessively in their safety, quality, and general habitability, especially when compared to their international cohort that is not experiencing the same woke agenda applications.  (Cologne would be the an exception as it is full woke, and rapidly becoming more dangerous and drug ridden).

Yet you declare you're willingness to ignore the decline of humanity's densest population centers based on your own personal observation of one city...that's not rational, reasonable, or intellectually honest.  I've spent very little time in Nashville, though my few experiences have been good.  I digress.

If someone disagrees with me based on their values, my default is to question my own opinion and figure out what I've got wrong.  I think that asking them what they value and why they value it is a rational and respectful thing to do.  I want to know the WHY behind what people believe.  When they actively refuse to respond, I'm going to call that out as cowardice...because that's what it is.  Not having the courage to demonstrate, explain, or stand up for what one claims to believe is a demonstration of exactly that: cowardice.  I've been addressed before here for using the word "coward" and I will continue to use it correctly in context.  To those who don't like it, I'm not going to apologize.

So in my view, @Prozac is displaying cowardice on an internet forum by refusing to answer questions concerning why he believes what he believes.  I'm calling that out.  Doing so doesn't make me mean or a bully.  It makes me honest.  The emotional responses to my questions is not my responsibility, they are the product of someone else's maturity.  If you disagree with that, please re-examine the definition of a bully.

Next, this gem:

 

iF yOu DoN’t AnSwEr My iMpLiEd QuEsTiOns I wIlL bEaT yOu Up!!!1

 

Stop being childish.  You should know by now that's not my style.  If I issue a threat it's direct and usually rash...and usually retracted.  Threats on the internet are stupid.  Most people I've encountered start tearing up the first time they feel how bad a punch hurts their own knuckles.  I know I did.  I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the guys here are doughy dudes who've never actually been in a real fight.  Hopefully your cute online insults serve you well in the real world.

I asked a legit question based on legit science.  If the body is in shit shape, the brain isn't going to work as it should.  I still haven't gotten an answer from prozac.

If you are unacquainted with the association of physical and mental health, you should be.  If not, don't feel bad.  It's a common problem in American society.  Oddly enough, a lot of the rest of the world clearly understands it and almost takes it for granted.  For example, the Japanese have culturally inculcated physical activity as a daily requirement for their salaryman class.  They've even got walking tracks on the roofs of their skyscraper office buildings.  Yet Americans think someone is being a meathead bully if they ask someone else if they exercise or physically train.  It's rather weak minded...which is rather appropriate, all things considered.

If you haven't noticed, I don't imply questions.  I ask them directly.  Sometimes I get drunk and ALL the filters get bypassed, but my core belief remain the same.  I have yet to have one person answer me directly as to why they believe that the current agenda is good for our country.  I've heard lots of what.  Very little Why.   

 

For clarity: My one and only core belief is that I am broken and need a savior, which was provided by God in Jesus.  He lived, died, and rose again specifically for the purpose of reconciling me to God.  Nothing that I did, nothing that I am.  Who he is, and what he's done saves me.  My relationship with Him is the ONLY thing in this life that's worth anything. I was built to relate to him.  I am highly imperfect. But it's worth the work to try and be better.  Politics, religion, money, relationships, family, morality...all of those things are subservient and I poorly understand them.  So when I ask pointed questions, it's because I want pointed answers.  Living a coherent and intellectually honest life in view of origin, destination, morality, and meaning is the best I can try for.  Which is why I ask direct questions.

 

So.

 

Soft on China.  Transitioning of children without parental approval.  Active celebration of non-straight sexuality.  Advocacy of teaching sexual agendas to kids in school.  Mandates of politicized public health agendas.  Legalization of drugs.  Incentivizing fathers to leave the home in low income families.  Celebration of biological men oppressing of biological women.  Not being able to clearly define what a woman is.  Suppression of freelance workers in the economy (go look up the Pro Act and the 70 MILLION freelance workers it would crush).  Egregious excessive spending the likes of which you would NEVER approve in your own person budget.  Suppression and elimination of the cleanest energy sources human kind has ever created.  Enforcement of a 'green' agenda that is not only disastrous for ecosystem, our economy, and our country's defense, but is literally physically impossible.   Should I keep going?  Claiming that our country's and community's stances on these issues to be sound is intellectually dishonest.  All those agenda items are not only endorsed, but ACTIVELY ENFORCED by our current American leadership. 

Yet you insist that voting for the current version of the democrat party that endorses ALL of the above is sound because they are the party that represents your values.  Values which you and your liberal peers refuse to explain.  I'm not asking you to change.  I'm asking you to explain why you believe what you believe.

All I asked prozac, and now I'll ask you again: Why do you believe what you believe. 

I used to vote democrat.  I'm an independent now.  I am a parent who has a world that I'm going to leave to my kids.  I know what it's like to have a world dumped on and passed on to me by my parent generation.  I'm not going to do that to my kids.  That means WE ALL need to work to preserve our community and get back to it's foundational principles.  If we've gone down the wrong path, progress has to look like backing up and returning to the right path.  It seems clear to me that our country is going down the wrong path.  We need to back some things up.  I guess that makes me conservative.

You know what's never happened?  A liberal supporter asking me what I believe, not to mention why I believe it.

TLDR: Please question your premises about being a "Democrat" or "Republican" because the Democrat or Republican party represents your values.  You might find that it actually doesn't.  I'm not asking you to vote for my guy.  I'm asking you to stop supporting causes that are bad for our community and our country.  If you can't see the bad impacts, please get out of the echo chamber and actually inspect our country.  Those bad causes have started to impact our personal lives, and more personally our kids.  That I'll defend.

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10 hours ago, nsplayr said:

It is! I disagree with you. Nashville has never been better or more prosperous. That’s where I live near and so I have the receipts more than elsewhere. Come here and see for yourself!

So you don’t live in the city limits of Nashville?  Why not?

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4 hours ago, FourFans said:

@nsplayr

image.jpeg.eefba43ea69c296ff2d30195afeabf8a.jpeg

Hopefully by now you know that I appreciate your viewpoint and I enjoy sparring.

So, as you responded to statements I made and questions I addressed to prozac....

You've been kind enough and polite enough to explain what you believe.  I greatly appreciate that.  It takes courage to express an unpopular opinion so in a public forum.  Expression of deeply held beliefs is generally terrifying at a cognitive level.  Specifically because it is exclusive.  Embracing one set of beliefs excludes others and thereby puts a person in a specific and sometimes isolated class.  Thankfully, doing so also exposes truths that have convinced a person to change their way of living based on a line of reason (hopefully) and should therefore be shared with others.  If you have changed your way of living based on a line of reason, I am actively curious to hear the why behind it. 

You have shared the what you believe.  You and others have actively refused to share the 'why'. 

The state of our cities are a great example.  I've been to Portland, Dallas, Seattle, Anchorage, Los Angeles, New York, Philadelphia, Memphis, Miami, Honolulu, Chicago, Sydney, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Cologne, London, Tokyo, and Seoul multiple times in the past 24 months.  I walk around when I'm there.  A lot.  I can attest to the fact that major American cities have declined excessively in their safety, quality, and general habitability, especially when compared to their international cohort that is not experiencing the same woke agenda applications.  (Cologne would be the an exception as it is full woke, and rapidly becoming more dangerous and drug ridden).

Yet you declare you're willingness to ignore the decline of humanity's densest population centers based on your own personal observation of one city...that's not rational, reasonable, or intellectually honest.  I've spent very little time in Nashville, though my few experiences have been good.  I digress.

If someone disagrees with me based on their values, my default is to question my own opinion and figure out what I've got wrong.  I think that asking them what they value and why they value it is a rational and respectful thing to do.  I want to know the WHY behind what people believe.  When they actively refuse to respond, I'm going to call that out as cowardice...because that's what it is.  Not having the courage to demonstrate, explain, or stand up for what one claims to believe is a demonstration of exactly that: cowardice.  I've been addressed before here for using the word "coward" and I will continue to use it correctly in context.  To those who don't like it, I'm not going to apologize.

So in my view, @Prozac is displaying cowardice on an internet forum by refusing to answer questions concerning why he believes what he believes.  I'm calling that out.  Doing so doesn't make me mean or a bully.  It makes me honest.  The emotional responses to my questions is not my responsibility, they are the product of someone else's maturity.  If you disagree with that, please re-examine the definition of a bully.

Next, this gem:

 

iF yOu DoN’t AnSwEr My iMpLiEd QuEsTiOns I wIlL bEaT yOu Up!!!1

 

Stop being childish.  You should know by now that's not my style.  If I issue a threat it's direct and usually rash...and usually retracted.  Threats on the internet are stupid.  Most people I've encountered start tearing up the first time they feel how bad a punch hurts their own knuckles.  I know I did.  I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the guys here are doughy dudes who've never actually been in a real fight.  Hopefully your cute online insults serve you well in the real world.

I asked a legit question based on legit science.  If the body is in shit shape, the brain isn't going to work as it should.  I still haven't gotten an answer from prozac.

If you are unacquainted with the association of physical and mental health, you should be.  If not, don't feel bad.  It's a common problem in American society.  Oddly enough, a lot of the rest of the world clearly understands it and almost takes it for granted.  For example, the Japanese have culturally inculcated physical activity as a daily requirement for their salaryman class.  They've even got walking tracks on the roofs of their skyscraper office buildings.  Yet Americans think someone is being a meathead bully if they ask someone else if they exercise or physically train.  It's rather weak minded...which is rather appropriate, all things considered.

If you haven't noticed, I don't imply questions.  I ask them directly.  Sometimes I get drunk and ALL the filters get bypassed, but my core belief remain the same.  I have yet to have one person answer me directly as to why they believe that the current agenda is good for our country.  I've heard lots of what.  Very little Why.   

 

For clarity: My one and only core belief is that I am broken and need a savior, which was provided by God in Jesus.  He lived, died, and rose again specifically for the purpose of reconciling me to God.  Nothing that I did, nothing that I am.  Who he is, and what he's done saves me.  My relationship with Him is the ONLY thing in this life that's worth anything. I was built to relate to him.  I am highly imperfect. But it's worth the work to try and be better.  Politics, religion, money, relationships, family, morality...all of those things are subservient and I poorly understand them.  So when I ask pointed questions, it's because I want pointed answers.  Living a coherent and intellectually honest life in view of origin, destination, morality, and meaning is the best I can try for.  Which is why I ask direct questions.

 

So.

 

Soft on China.  Transitioning of children without parental approval.  Active celebration of non-straight sexuality.  Advocacy of teaching sexual agendas to kids in school.  Mandates of politicized public health agendas.  Legalization of drugs.  Incentivizing fathers to leave the home in low income families.  Celebration of biological men oppressing of biological women.  Not being able to clearly define what a woman is.  Suppression of freelance workers in the economy (go look up the Pro Act and the 70 MILLION freelance workers it would crush).  Egregious excessive spending the likes of which you would NEVER approve in your own person budget.  Suppression and elimination of the cleanest energy sources human kind has ever created.  Enforcement of a 'green' agenda that is not only disastrous for ecosystem, our economy, and our country's defense, but is literally physically impossible.   Should I keep going?  Claiming that our country's and community's stances on these issues to be sound is intellectually dishonest.  All those agenda items are not only endorsed, but ACTIVELY ENFORCED by our current American leadership. 

Yet you insist that voting for the current version of the democrat party that endorses ALL of the above is sound because they are the party that represents your values.  Values which you and your liberal peers refuse to explain.  I'm not asking you to change.  I'm asking you to explain why you believe what you believe.

All I asked prozac, and now I'll ask you again: Why do you believe what you believe. 

I used to vote democrat.  I'm an independent now.  I am a parent who has a world that I'm going to leave to my kids.  I know what it's like to have a world dumped on and passed on to me by my parent generation.  I'm not going to do that to my kids.  That means WE ALL need to work to preserve our community and get back to it's foundational principles.  If we've gone down the wrong path, progress has to look like backing up and returning to the right path.  It seems clear to me that our country is going down the wrong path.  We need to back some things up.  I guess that makes me conservative.

You know what's never happened?  A liberal supporter asking me what I believe, not to mention why I believe it.

TLDR: Please question your premises about being a "Democrat" or "Republican" because the Democrat or Republican party represents your values.  You might find that it actually doesn't.  I'm not asking you to vote for my guy.  I'm asking you to stop supporting causes that are bad for our community and our country.  If you can't see the bad impacts, please get out of the echo chamber and actually inspect our country.  Those bad causes have started to impact our personal lives, and more personally our kids.  That I'll defend.

That’s a lot of words. I am choosing tot to engage because I don’t usually have the time or energy & I feel like when you and I have engaged in the past it turns into a circular argument. I’ve been on this forum a long time & I think that most who know me here have a pretty good idea where I stand on most issues. Feel free to check out my post history if you’re really curious.


I’ll throw you a few cliff’s notes here though: I believe that the US is, and should remain the most prosperous and powerful country in the world and that we are full of opportunities for everyone here. We’re far from perfect and should endeavor to remain the world leader in all of those metrics. To me, that means we should have things like the best education system in the world, the best healthcare system, the best infrastructure, etc. Not just in rich areas of New York, or California, but in rural Mississippi and Arkansas, and Kentucky. It’s unacceptable to me that gun violence has become the biggest killer of children, or that creationism is being taught to American children, or that certain segments of our population have been, and continue to be shut out of the best parts of our economy. In my eyes, the reforms needed are on a national level and are of a nature that only an empowered federal government can tackle. These are just a few of the reasons that I tend to support a larger role for central government as well as tax policies that allow for raising the revenue to prosecute those aims. I am aware there are many pitfalls in this strategy. But there are just as many pitfalls in conservative strategy (more, in fact, IMO). I fully allow that there are many good arguments for a more conservative mindset. I used to subscribe to many of them. I eventually came to the overall conclusion that despite claiming otherwise, conservatives weren’t realists. The argument that we are better off leaving people to their own devices assumes they are generally good and rational. While that may be true on a mostly individual basis, most people simply don’t act in good or rational ways often enough to solve our issues. For instance, expecting local churches to solve poverty, hunger, and homelessness is an exercise in futility. Some problems are simply to big to be left at the local level, yet many conservatives continue to insist that is the way forward. I disagree. 
 

Here’s the bottom line. I 100% believe that at the end of the day, despite our differences on how to get there, you and I want to see the same thing: A better United States. You know what worries me more than any of the issues I detailed above? The fact that once upon a time, most of us understood that. That our differences in opinion did not mean we were enemies. Now, it’s different. If you don’t agree with me, you must be trying to destroy my country. While that sentiment certainly exists on both sides, the cacophony from the right seems much louder & is yet another reason I have gravitated to Democrats in recent years. This concern is what sparked my original comment about Hailey and my appreciation for her generally well reasoned positions. To me, it’s far more important for us (Americans in general, not necessarily you and I) to stop thinking of one another as enemies than it is to pledge allegiance to any particular political ideology. 

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8 hours ago, Prozac said:

While that sentiment certainly exists on both sides, the cacophony from the right seems much louder & is yet another reason I have gravitated to Democrats in recent years. 

I think you’d find a large percentage of conservative minded ppl that would vehemently disagree which side the larger cacophony is originating from. Copy, they’d believe that because they’re biased too. However, the amount of silencing of conservative viewpoints via social media platforms, news media, and print journalism is a very polarizing issue. Political pundits and journalists labeling anyone non-progressive as a bigot seems to usually be exclaimed quite loudly.

Do you think this viewpoint from the right has any basis in fact? Are conservatives over-exaggerating what they feel as a concerted effort by progressives to demonize them, or are they just trying to rile up their base?

Edited by Boomer6
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4 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

I think you’d find a large percentage of conservative minded ppl that would vehemently disagree which side the larger cacophony is originating from. Copy, they’d believe that because they’re biased too. However, the amount of silencing of conservative viewpoints via social media platforms, news media, and print journalism is a very polarizing issue. Political pundits and journalists labeling anyone non-progressive as a bigot seems to usually be exclaimed a quite loudly.

Do you think this viewpoint from the right has any basis in fact? Are conservatives over-exaggerating what they feel as a concerted effort by progressives to demonize them, or are they just trying to rile up their base?

You bring up a fair point but that’s not really what I was getting at. The mentality that the other side of the aisle is my/the nation’s enemy is a much more common conservative talking point than it is liberal one, evidenced by the fact that you constantly hear about things like civil war from conservative media. I don’t think I’ve ever heard the left leaning sources bring that kind of thing up except to point out the sentiment on the right. That thought process is scarily destructive to our country IMO. 
 

Your point that conservative voices and ideas are suppressed by the “mainstream” media has some merit. I think there was a pretty strong argument for that for many years. It eventually led to conservative talk radio programs with folks like Rush Limbaugh, and ultimately, to networks like Fox News. These outlets like to harp on the idea that they’re the underdogs who tell you the things the mainstream won’t, but the reality is that they’ve become mainstream in their own right. Fox News commands the biggest audience on television and has recently spent a not insignificant time in court admitting they lie to their viewers to keep them tuning in. Not saying that’s necessarily different from any other network, but the idea that anyone has the power to suppress stories in this day and age is misleading at best. Conservative media suppresses the stories its users don’t want to hear & vice versa with liberal outlets. The problem isn’t the media, it’s us. These networks are giving the American people exactly what they want, whether that’s the constant drumbeat of Trump indictments, or painting every place with a Democrat in charge to look like an apocalyptic wasteland. We, the American public eat that shit up. Not sure what the answer is but I’m pretty sure it starts with us becoming more savvy consumers of media and recognizing the difference between information and entertainment. 

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@ Prozac.  Congrats on your tenure at baseops.  I've been here the whole time you have.  I've read many of your posts.  Those who claim "I expressed my views, you should know them by now" is being either intellectually lazy, or has completely stopped learning and updating his world view based on new information. I don't take you for either, hence me asking lots of why questions.

People change, as they should, and I refuse to assume that someone is intellectually where I last left them.

I asked you WHY you believe what you believe.  Your response contained a whole lot of WHAT you believe and a significant collection of CNN talking points (which a google search quickly highlighted).  Not a single why as far as I can see.  For example:

On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said:

To me, that means we should have things like the best education system in the world, the best healthcare system, the best infrastructure, etc.

That' a what.  Not a how. Definitely not a why.  What do you qualify as a 'best' healthcare system?  One that makes people wait 8 months for cancer diagnosis (english/canada) or one that you don't have to pay for...but that your really do through higher taxes?  Why would you support it?

On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said:

It’s unacceptable to me that gun violence has become the biggest killer of children

Straight up a CNN talking point not validated or elucidated with a single fact from the CDC.  What age group?  What demographic?  What qualifies as "gun violence"?  Please dude.  Question the statements you hear before repeating them.  This is literally click bate that you appear to have swallowed completely.  Do some research of multiple reputable and unbiased health tracking sources...of which the CDC has epically proven itself not to be...and you'll find that statement is mis-leading at best.  I did, and it simply isn't true.  Negligent parenting and McDonalds are killing more kids below the age of 18 than IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE WITH guns are.  A little note: a gun has never, not once, of it's own volition killed anyone.  Irresponsible people do that.  I agree that No child should ever die from gun violence.  What you regurgitated there is simple emotive response material not rooted in fact or data.

On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said:

that creationism is being taught to American children

Again that's a what without foundation.  In what demographic?  Homeschooling?  Public Schooling?  What about christian schools?  Are you ok if they learn Darwinian theory at the same time (which Darwin himself disavowed before he died)?  What about homosexual behavior and the mechanics how to do it?  That's taught to some kids today in public school right now.  Are you ok with that?  Seems like you're cheery picking some emotive moral hotspots. 

WHY do you not like that?

On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said:

certain segments of our population have been, and continue to be shut out of the best parts of our economy.

That is one of your broadest statements yet.  So do believe in whole-sale socialism?  Can you point to a historic or current successful example of how you would employ that? 

P.S.  Life isn't fair.  Trying to make it 'fair' as defined by one section of society only makes it worse.

On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said:

In my eyes, the reforms needed are on a national level and are of a nature that only an empowered federal government can tackle. These are just a few of the reasons that I tend to support a larger role for central government as well as tax policies that allow for raising the revenue to prosecute those aims.

Yes reforms are needed.  History completely disagrees with you about increasing federal power.  Never has an increasingly powerful centralized government resulted in higher liberty, freedom, and prosperity for it citizens.  If I'm wrong about that please give me your examples.  Once again.  That's all WHAT material. 

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THIS  What is your logical backup for your stance?  What are you basing your beliefs on?

On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said:

I am aware there are many pitfalls in this strategy. But there are just as many pitfalls in conservative strategy (more, in fact, IMO)

More.  Ok.  What exactly are the pitfalls that make conservative strategy worse?  Are you happy with the last 3 years of liberal controlled government?  You're happy with the economy?  With the spending of your tax dollars?  With the unity that the party of unity has brought to our country?  

 

On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said:

The argument that we are better off leaving people to their own devices assumes they are generally good and rational. While that may be true on a mostly individual basis, most people simply don’t act in good or rational ways often enough to solve our issues.

If you cannot understand how that belief structure leads directly to tyranny, oppression and dictatorship, I can do nothing to help you.  You are directly arguing for a communist society where "the state" is more important and more capable of deciding what is good for people than the individual people are.  Please go live in a former eastern bloc country...not visit...LIVE IN for 6 months and you'll learn exactly how toxic that viewpoint is.

 

On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said:

expecting local churches to solve poverty, hunger, and homelessness is an exercise in futility

What has led you to that conclusion?  Where did modern hospitals, orphanages, adoption processes, welfare systems, vaccines, and mental health institutions come from?  This is a violently ignorant and arrogantly bigoted (actual meaning of that word, not the modern liberal use of it) statement.  Once again.  It explains nothing of WHY you believe it.

 

On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said:

Some problems are simply to big to be left at the local level, yet many conservatives continue to insist that is the way forward. I disagree. 

Why do you disagree?  Please back up your statement.

 

On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said:

Here’s the bottom line...and your closing paragraph.

You sound very much like you listen to a lot of media...from whatever side.  Here's what concerns me the most: American's that violently defend a stance of WHAT they believe while having NOT A SINGLE RATIONAL CLUE as to WHY the believe it.  In the end, I think it's a lot of people who simply what to fight and stand up for "their side" without ever actually putting to brain bites into truly analyzing the facts behind "their side" and deciding if it make logical sense.

Put differently: people want to passionately defend their side because if feels good.  Understand the why behind that side is usually too intellectually challenging so they just skip it...turning themselves into what stalin call "useful idiots".  

Please don't be a useful idiot, regardless of what side you land on.  Please tackle the why behind your stance.  

I have ask a LOT of why questions in order that I might truly understand what's behind your belief structure.  I'm not getting a lot of solid feedback beyond some strongly defended talking points based on emotion and not fact.

Still standing by for the answer to the WHY questions.

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On 6/5/2023 at 10:45 AM, nsplayr said:

It is! I disagree with you. Nashville has never been better or more prosperous. That’s where I live near and so I have the receipts more than elsewhere. Come here and see for yourself!

As you know I have spent a LOT of time in Nashville and what you are saying is simply not true unless you are ignoring crime.

Aside from lunatics detonating bomb laden RVs in the center of town you also have some other statistics that are counter to your assertion.  In particular, violent crime is up year over year and increasing with homicide setting new records.  Over the last decade homicide in Nashville is up a staggering 78%...hardly the utopian liberal hemp fest you are suggesting.  Oh and according to current reports, after a 27% increase in 2019 and 2020, the 2023 homicide rate is up another 8.7% as compared to the same time in 2022...congrats!

Adjusted for population and as compared to the rest of Tennessee and the nation, some sad numbers emerge.  The violent crime rate in Nashville is almost double the rate of the rest of Tennessee and nearly triple the national average.  The property crime and other crimes categories follow the same trend.

 

Screen Shot 2023-06-07 at 5.58.40 AM.png

Screen Shot 2023-06-07 at 5.58.09 AM.png

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2 hours ago, FourFans said:

@ Prozac.  Congrats on your tenure at baseops.  I've been here the whole time you have.  I've read many of your posts.  Those who claim "I expressed my views, you should know them by now" is being either intellectually lazy, or has completely stopped learning and updating his world view based on new information. I don't take you for either, hence me asking lots of why questions.

People change, as they should, and I refuse to assume that someone is intellectually where I last left them.

I asked you WHY you believe what you believe.  Your response contained a whole lot of WHAT you believe and a significant collection of CNN talking points (which a google search quickly highlighted).  Not a single why as far as I can see.  For example:

That' a what.  Not a how. Definitely not a why.  What do you qualify as a 'best' healthcare system?  One that makes people wait 8 months for cancer diagnosis (english/canada) or one that you don't have to pay for...but that your really do through higher taxes?  Why would you support it?

Straight up a CNN talking point not validated or elucidated with a single fact from the CDC.  What age group?  What demographic?  What qualifies as "gun violence"?  Please dude.  Question the statements you hear before repeating them.  This is literally click bate that you appear to have swallowed completely.  Do some research of multiple reputable and unbiased health tracking sources...of which the CDC has epically proven itself not to be...and you'll find that statement is mis-leading at best.  I did, and it simply isn't true.  Negligent parenting and McDonalds are killing more kids below the age of 18 than IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE WITH guns are.  A little note: a gun has never, not once, of it's own volition killed anyone.  Irresponsible people do that.  I agree that No child should ever die from gun violence.  What you regurgitated there is simple emotive response material not rooted in fact or data.

Again that's a what without foundation.  In what demographic?  Homeschooling?  Public Schooling?  What about christian schools?  Are you ok if they learn Darwinian theory at the same time (which Darwin himself disavowed before he died)?  What about homosexual behavior and the mechanics how to do it?  That's taught to some kids today in public school right now.  Are you ok with that?  Seems like you're cheery picking some emotive moral hotspots. 

WHY do you not like that?

That is one of your broadest statements yet.  So do believe in whole-sale socialism?  Can you point to a historic or current successful example of how you would employ that? 

P.S.  Life isn't fair.  Trying to make it 'fair' as defined by one section of society only makes it worse.

Yes reforms are needed.  History completely disagrees with you about increasing federal power.  Never has an increasingly powerful centralized government resulted in higher liberty, freedom, and prosperity for it citizens.  If I'm wrong about that please give me your examples.  Once again.  That's all WHAT material. 

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THIS  What is your logical backup for your stance?  What are you basing your beliefs on?

More.  Ok.  What exactly are the pitfalls that make conservative strategy worse?  Are you happy with the last 3 years of liberal controlled government?  You're happy with the economy?  With the spending of your tax dollars?  With the unity that the party of unity has brought to our country?  

 

If you cannot understand how that belief structure leads directly to tyranny, oppression and dictatorship, I can do nothing to help you.  You are directly arguing for a communist society where "the state" is more important and more capable of deciding what is good for people than the individual people are.  Please go live in a former eastern bloc country...not visit...LIVE IN for 6 months and you'll learn exactly how toxic that viewpoint is.

 

What has led you to that conclusion?  Where did modern hospitals, orphanages, adoption processes, welfare systems, vaccines, and mental health institutions come from?  This is a violently ignorant and arrogantly bigoted (actual meaning of that word, not the modern liberal use of it) statement.  Once again.  It explains nothing of WHY you believe it.

 

Why do you disagree?  Please back up your statement.

 

You sound very much like you listen to a lot of media...from whatever side.  Here's what concerns me the most: American's that violently defend a stance of WHAT they believe while having NOT A SINGLE RATIONAL CLUE as to WHY the believe it.  In the end, I think it's a lot of people who simply what to fight and stand up for "their side" without ever actually putting to brain bites into truly analyzing the facts behind "their side" and deciding if it make logical sense.

Put differently: people want to passionately defend their side because if feels good.  Understand the why behind that side is usually too intellectually challenging so they just skip it...turning themselves into what stalin call "useful idiots".  

Please don't be a useful idiot, regardless of what side you land on.  Please tackle the why behind your stance.  

I have ask a LOT of why questions in order that I might truly understand what's behind your belief structure.  I'm not getting a lot of solid feedback beyond some strongly defended talking points based on emotion and not fact.

Still standing by for the answer to the WHY questions.

Naaah. I really don’t see much value in going any more rounds with you. Imma go hang out bin the drindls & beer thread for a bit. 🍻 

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