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The Next President is...


disgruntledemployee

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1 hour ago, filthy_liar said:

am I the only one here that can see that the idea of saying you are a follower of a faith but can believe whatever you want is kind of a farce?

Nope.  When actions don't meet words, the actions tell the truth.  When that happens a lot, we call those people politicians.  National figures have been abusing religion to try and gain support since the beginning of time.

 

1 hour ago, filthy_liar said:

why don't humans just say "I don't know" when it comes to answering the question of what happens after death.

Because we've been told what the absolute truth is (we ultimately are judged by God, and go to heaven and the new earth, or hell.  If we've not established a personal relationship with Christ Jesus and accepted his salvation, we go to hell...which I'm guessing looks a lot like earth without God).  Most people just don't want to accept that when they hear it because it's uncomfortable, truly incomprehensible (he's a God who exists in what to us seems like paradox), and exposes that ultimate of truths: We are not in control.

Now,

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🤷‍♂️ I’m not even that religious and am about 69% sure that a lot of stuff in Christianity and Catholicism and all religions is made up bullshit.

But some of it isn’t, and as a moral and ethics and community-building system there are way worse ones to choose from than being Catholic. I’m also a big fan of stoicism FWIW and I think in particular a Jesuit-flavored Catholicism + stoicism is a great foundation for living a good and moral life, although whatever works for you in achieving that end, be my guest.

Understanding religion is also pretty fundamental to understanding humans, so I do my best to learn. Catholicism happened to be the faith of my family, so I chose to do all the Catholic sacraments as an adult and I go to church now with my extended family even while not necessarily drinking the kook aid or forcing it on my kids. They can choose to believe whatever they want so long as they grow up to be good people.

But FWIW what I described before is a fairly mainstream Catholic view. I’m not sure what about my post was particularly distressing, unless you’re a tradcath who hates Pope Francis and Vatican II and Biden and etc.

My previous post was mostly an inside-baseball comment on the idea of denying Catholic communion to political leaders for their political beliefs, since that applies in particular to our current President. If you’re not Catholic or religions at all you can safely give zero Fs about the whole thing!

/religious commentary off

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3 hours ago, nsplayr said:

If you’re not Catholic or religions at all you can safely give zero Fs about the whole thing!

I'll disagree.  The core of the problem here is that our president claims a personal belief that, in practice he so shuns that some practitioners of that believe system refuse to include him.  Imagine a pilot you fly with that claims to be a good pilot, but is in fact entirely dangerous, and you refuse to fly with him.  

Personal preferences aside: It speaks strongly of our president's character, or lack thereof.  He plays a key role in running our country and setting policy.  What he does in private AND public flows from the same set of life rules, coherent or not.  I'm pretty sure we should all give at least a little notice to his character.

Edited by FourFans130
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Lol sure, judge the man by his character, please do that. 

But the fact that a few dickhead radical bishops, against the wishes of the Pope and outside the mainstream of the church, want to make an example out of certain political leaders who support specific government policies the church consider sinful (keep in mind the leaders are not actually committing the sin themselves!), and are doing so by refusing to distribute a sacrament given as a gift from God…yea ok, that’s not the same as some pilot being like, “Hey that guy is unsafe.”

There are over 5,600 bishops in the Catholic Church and ~1.3 billion members of the church in general, I’m sure there is not a single person on earth who is liked/trusted/loved/etc. by every single other member! This ain’t a flying squadron with 25 bros who can and should all know each other in detail and mostly get along.

The core of the issue re: being refused communion by some bishops is not “Biden is amoral.” You might believe that, but that’s not what the small handful of bishops I’m talking about believe.

The religious issue in question is that a handful of bishops are indeed dickhead radicals who have misinterpreted the purpose of the sacrament and have gone against the explicit wishes of the leader of their church and want to make an example out of people they have never even met, let alone known and ministered to and shepherded toward a closer relationship with God.

It’s an internal pissing match, and if you are not Catholic nor Christian nor religious at all, you don’t need to GAF about who eats what crackers where 😅

Of all the things to hate Biden for or critique, saying he is a “bad Catholic” is the stupidest one I’ve ever heard, especially if you are not Catholic yourself.

Too old, check. Sloppy with classified, check. Said many dumb things over the last 40 years, check. Democrat, check (if that’s a negative in your book). Critique away there.

But this man has a sincere belief in God and has practiced his chosen faith well and with good intentions for his entire life AFAIK, I have a very hard time finding fault there.

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1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

Religious words...

I mostly agree with you.  My faith is very personal to me and not governed by a few radicals, but discussing here is even more futile than politics.

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

Sloppy with classified,

I'd say this is a bit more than "sloppy".  Items from his time in the senate (that can only be viewed in a SCIF), found in his homeS.  How did they get out of the SCIF?   Items from his time as VP (he is not the classification authority) found in his homeS.  Again how did they get out of the SCIF or his office.  And even though they assured us "there's no there there" and he has "no regrets", the FBI found even MORE classified today. 

Why didn't the FBI conduct the first searches?

Why were his uncleared lawyers allowed to search?

Why was he allowed to return to the potential scene of a crime?  Where they keep finding classified?

Why did they hide this for MONTHS?

One or two items is sloppy, but they have found classified at every location they have searched.  This situation has gone far beyond sloppy and clearly crossed into coverup territory.

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4 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Lol sure, judge the man by his character, please do that. 

Too old, check. Sloppy with classified, check. Said many dumb things over the last 40 years, check. Democrat, check (if that’s a negative in your book). Critique away there.

But this man has a sincere belief in God and has practiced his chosen faith well and with good intentions for his entire life AFAIK, I have a very hard time finding fault there.

Kinda my point.  The religion thing, without knowing any details, connects correctly with all the rest of the datapoints.  I don't think this guy has done anything with sincere belief or true, unabashed good intention for a long while.  I think he's abusing religion to try and rehab his image somewhat...and it's failing.

So, you're willing to admit all the rest of his faults, recognize his overt lying and complete lack of integrity, yet dismiss the religion datapoint on...religious grounds?...as some one who yourself admittedly doesn't believe said religion?  Interesting stance.

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19 hours ago, nsplayr said:

🤷‍♂️ I’m not even that religious and am about 69% sure that a lot of stuff in Christianity and Catholicism and all religions is made up bullshit.

But some of it isn’t, and as a moral and ethics and community-building system there are way worse ones to choose from than being Catholic. I’m also a big fan of stoicism FWIW and I think in particular a Jesuit-flavored Catholicism + stoicism is a great foundation for living a good and moral life, although whatever works for you in achieving that end, be my guest.

Understanding religion is also pretty fundamental to understanding humans, so I do my best to learn. Catholicism happened to be the faith of my family, so I chose to do all the Catholic sacraments as an adult and I go to church now with my extended family even while not necessarily drinking the kook aid or forcing it on my kids. They can choose to believe whatever they want so long as they grow up to be good people.

But FWIW what I described before is a fairly mainstream Catholic view. I’m not sure what about my post was particularly distressing, unless you’re a tradcath who hates Pope Francis and Vatican II and Biden and etc.

My previous post was mostly an inside-baseball comment on the idea of denying Catholic communion to political leaders for their political beliefs, since that applies in particular to our current President. If you’re not Catholic or religions at all you can safely give zero Fs about the whole thing!

/religious commentary off

No worries, I'm not attacking you or Biden...and none of what you typed was distressing to me.

I definitely agree with you that if a person chooses religion as a great foundation for living a good and moral life - that is a very very good thing.  

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33 minutes ago, FourFans130 said:

Kinda my point.  The religion thing, without knowing any details, connects correctly with all the rest of the datapoints.  I don't think this guy has done anything with sincere belief or true, unabashed good intention for a long while.  I think he's abusing religion to try and rehab his image somewhat...and it's failing.

So, you're willing to admit all the rest of his faults, recognize his overt lying and complete lack of integrity, yet dismiss the religion datapoint on...religious grounds?...as some one who yourself admittedly doesn't believe said religion?  Interesting stance.

Disagree on your summary of my views.

Catholic stuff aside, I like Joe Biden as a person and I like a lot of the policies he’s pushed through as President the last two years. He’s been more successful than I would have thought both electorally and legislatively.

He has also made mistakes and said a lot of dumb stuff over the years, and my biggest critique is that he’s too old to be president now, let alone run for another term. Flame away if it makes you feel better, but that’s not some radical view. He’s a mainstream Dem and so am I and he’s passed a fair amount of bills that are good from the perspective of mainstream Dems.

Back on religion, I find his faith to be sincere and genuine and an unmitigated positive part of his personal qualities, even if I’m not that religious myself. I respect people who are sincerely religious although I’m also equally fine supporting people who are not (e.g. I don’t believe Obama was sincerely that religious and I strongly supported him).

I am just baffled that, among all other options, a couple of y’all think Biden’s religion is a valid attack line, either because you think he’s faking it somehow, is amoral in general and therefore also lying about his faith, or because of a couple of dickhead bishops want to stop him from eating a cracker. I suspect it’s door #2 for you fourfans? (Sic) “Biden is a lying bad man all around and therefore all this Catholic stuff is fake and bad too.”  
Close enough?

IMHO it would be very strange to be a public, lifelong believer and regular church attendant, all as a setup to “rehab your image.” It would be a really long bit to commit to, although not without precedent!

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2 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Disagree on your summary of my views.

Catholic stuff aside, I like Joe Biden as a person and I like a lot of the policies he’s pushed through as President the last two years. He’s been more successful than I would have thought both electorally and legislatively.

He has also made mistakes and said a lot of dumb stuff over the years, and my biggest critique is that he’s too old to be president now, let alone run for another term. Flame away if it makes you feel better, but that’s not some radical view. He’s a mainstream Dem and so am I and he’s passed a fair amount of bills that are good from the perspective of mainstream Dems.

Back on religion, I find his faith to be sincere and genuine and an unmitigated positive part of his personal qualities, even if I’m not that religious myself. I respect people who are sincerely religious although I’m also equally fine supporting people who are not (e.g. I don’t believe Obama was sincerely that religious and I strongly supported him).

I am just baffled that, among all other options, a couple of y’all think Biden’s religion is a valid attack line, either because you think he’s faking it somehow, is amoral in general and therefore also lying about his faith, or because of a couple of dickhead bishops want to stop him from eating a cracker. I suspect it’s door #2 for you fourfans? (Sic) “Biden is a lying bad man all around and therefore all this Catholic stuff is fake and bad too.”  
Close enough?

IMHO it would be very strange to be a public, lifelong believer and regular church attendant, all as a setup to “rehab your image.” It would be a really long bit to commit to, although not without precedent!

Let me back it down a bit.  On religion, I'm not attacking, simply pointing out that from my point of view he seems incoherent in his views and actions.  That's across the board, and includes what I can tell of his religious beliefs, which are deeply personal.  Fini on that topic.

As to the politics, so I understand you clearly.  You like what he's done with the economy, the border, energy, international relations, pandemic mandates, crime, LGTBQ and social equity meltdown, gun laws, and his own personal conduct (rolling together all the classified documents, his son's illegal affairs, etc).  You're saying this is the man you wanted and you're happy with the job he's doing?  Am I hearing that correctly?

Edited by FourFans130
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48 minutes ago, FourFans130 said:

Let me back it down a bit.  On religion, I'm not attacking, simply pointing out that from my point of view he seems incoherent in his views and actions.  That's across the board, and includes what I can tell of his religious beliefs, which are deeply personal.  Fini on that topic.

As to the politics, so I understand you clearly.  You like what he's done with the economy, the border, energy, international relations, pandemic mandates, crime, LGTBQ and social equity meltdown, gun laws, and his own personal conduct (rolling together all the classified documents, his son's illegal affairs, etc).  You're saying this is the man you wanted and you're happy with the job he's doing?  Am I hearing that correctly?

Don't forget leaving over 1000 American citizens in a failed terrorist state at their own peril. 

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2 hours ago, FLEA said:

Don't forget leaving over 1000 American citizens in a failed terrorist state at their own peril. 

C’mon man that’s Trump’s fault!! Gas prices are going down, and they only went up because of Putin. We also solved inflation under Biden! Back to eating Ice Cream and finding a new lady to sniff. 

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8 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Fact: Being "Pro-Choice" makes you not a Catholic.

This is a simple matter of definitions.

Disagree! As do the majority of Catholics and the head of the church.

8 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

As to the politics, so I understand you clearly. You like [Joe Biden’s policies over the last two years].

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1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

So you're okay with the SW border situation?  You believe the administration is correctly interpreting and enforcing the laws of the USA regarding immigration and employment enforcement?

I would like to see some changes, but largely around significantly upping legal immigration caps and legal work permits.

Immigration is a massive net positive for the US, esp compared to our global competitors or even most allies, and we should take advantage.

BL: I don’t want to stem the tide of people illegally immigrating, I just want to stop it from being illegal.

OBE reasons to keep people out (Title 42) should end because COVID has not been a reason to keep people out in a long time; it’s already endemic here.

The asylum system is rife for exploitation, so that can and should be changed too, but you would largely solve the problem if you just legalized economic reasons for immigration for Mexicans, Central Americans, Cubans, etc. who often make dubious asylum claims.

Just make almost all of it legal and welcome in some new American residents!

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15 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Disagree on your summary of my views.

Catholic stuff aside, I like Joe Biden as a person and I like a lot of the policies he’s pushed through as President the last two years. He’s been more successful than I would have thought both electorally and legislatively.

He has also made mistakes and said a lot of dumb stuff over the years, and my biggest critique is that he’s too old to be president now, let alone run for another term. Flame away if it makes you feel better, but that’s not some radical view. He’s a mainstream Dem and so am I and he’s passed a fair amount of bills that are good from the perspective of mainstream Dems.

Back on religion, I find his faith to be sincere and genuine and an unmitigated positive part of his personal qualities, even if I’m not that religious myself. I respect people who are sincerely religious although I’m also equally fine supporting people who are not (e.g. I don’t believe Obama was sincerely that religious and I strongly supported him).

I am just baffled that, among all other options, a couple of y’all think Biden’s religion is a valid attack line, either because you think he’s faking it somehow, is amoral in general and therefore also lying about his faith, or because of a couple of dickhead bishops want to stop him from eating a cracker. I suspect it’s door #2 for you fourfans? (Sic) “Biden is a lying bad man all around and therefore all this Catholic stuff is fake and bad too.”  
Close enough?

IMHO it would be very strange to be a public, lifelong believer and regular church attendant, all as a setup to “rehab your image.” It would be a really long bit to commit to, although not without precedent!

This is like Jews who only go to synagogue a couple times a year, but take every opportunity to call themselves Jewish while they advocate for and support political stances that are in direct opposition to the Jewish faith. Being raised both Catholic and Jewish, I've seen many of both. And for clarity, I am firmly atheist.

 

Since I don't believe in any of the sanctity or spiritually of the religion, perhaps I have an easier time identifying religious vs non-religious people. You are religious if you follow the teachings of your religion. You are not if you don't.

 

You can love the idea of airplanes, respect the history of airplanes, marvel at the complex engineering of airplanes, and even spend a lot of time hanging out at FBOs, airshows, and in airplanes. But if you don't fly them, you're not a pilot, regardless of whether you believe yourself to be one.

 

One of the most vital elements of religion is the formation of a clear and definable identity that one can use to guide their life such that they can successfully adapt to living in a given society, and advance that society through their participation. Each religion has different prescriptions for doing so, but this new-age nonsense of I don't have to do anything but identify as the religion in order to be a part of it is strangely reminiscent of the new and obnoxious dogma regarding gender. 

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49 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Just make almost all of it legal and welcome in some new American residents!

It's all great until their citizen children assimilate downward and learn the DEI grift.  Then you get the worst of both worlds.

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16 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Fact: Being "Pro-Choice" makes you not a Catholic.

This is a simple matter of definitions.

Ok. Does being pro-evolution make you not a Christian? I mean, it’s all right there in the Bible. Who are you to pick and choose what you get to believe? BTW, this is one of the biggest problems I have with religion in general: For some people, it’s about a personal relationship with God and morality, and a vehicle for growing as a human being. Cool. For too many others though, it’s a bludgeon to hammer others with for not abiding their own personal beliefs.
 

I also wonder how many of the fervent naysayers are Catholic. I grew up in the Catholic Church and, in my experience, beliefs of church officials vary widely by geography and demographics. It’s a rather large organization if you weren’t aware and a Catholic parishioner in Guatemala probably has some very different views and beliefs than one in Colorado, who, in turn will seem very strange indeed to one in Papua New Guinea. 
 

Additionally, I find it ironic that many who are currently criticizing Biden’s religious beliefs…also cheerfully voted for Donald Trump, probably the least religious, most unethical president this country has ever had. I chalk it up as yet another attempt to make the argument that “yeah, we elected an absolute slimeball, but look! Joe Biden is just as slimy, if not slimier!” Sorry, but conservatives are only fooling conservatives on that one. Ever wonder why, before he was elected president, Joe Biden was considered one of the most likable, least polarizing politicians in Washington, but now all of a sudden, he’s the devil incarnate? Hmmmmm. 🤔 Back to your echo chambers. 

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3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Each religion has different prescriptions for doing so, but this new-age nonsense of I don't have to do anything but identify as the religion in order to be a part of it is strangely reminiscent of the new and obnoxious dogma regarding gender. 

And my argument is that supporting a government policy that bans abortion (or allows abortion) is not a critical aspect of being Catholic or Christian. Depending on your denomination and etc. you probably shouldn’t actually have an abortion yourself, but merely supporting a government policy on the subject one way or another is not the same thing. And the Pope has said as much WRT Catholics, case closed.

Yes, if you claimed to be Muslim and then said Mohammed isn’t a profit of God…ok well then you’re not really a Muslim. But super inside-baseball doctrine where there is a variety of opinion AND the head of the faith says it’s not critical…again, case closed.

2 hours ago, DSG said:

It's all great until their citizen children assimilate…

This part is actually the American superpower. The fact that many second or especially third generation immigrants are largely indistinguishable from folks descending from the Mayflower pilgrims is fantastic. You can come from whenever and truly become a real, no-shit American faster and more completely than anywhere else in the world, and that is a very good thing IMHO.

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6 hours ago, nsplayr said:

I would like to see some changes, but largely around significantly upping legal immigration caps and legal work permits.

Immigration is a massive net positive for the US, esp compared to our global competitors or even most allies, and we should take advantage.

BL: I don’t want to stem the tide of people illegally immigrating, I just want to stop it from being illegal.

OBE reasons to keep people out (Title 42) should end because COVID has not been a reason to keep people out in a long time; it’s already endemic here.

The asylum system is rife for exploitation, so that can and should be changed too, but you would largely solve the problem if you just legalized economic reasons for immigration for Mexicans, Central Americans, Cubans, etc. who often make dubious asylum claims.

Just make almost all of it legal and welcome in some new American residents!

Unless they're Muslim right? Because Biden has done a hell of a job blocking immigration pathways for Afghan refugees. He's also completely gutted the diversity visa lottery. Dept of State gets 50,000 diversity visas to give away each year. Under Biden they've awarded less than half each year due to deliberate stonewalling and pressure from the Whitehouse. DoS has been sued and lost twice because of this, now being sued a 3rd time and WH has again instructed DOJ to defend it. (Despite having lost twice already for the same exact reason. Lawsuits were separate. They were class actions filed under DV applicants of desperate filing years.) 

Recommend you get the whole picture of your going to suddenly be pro-Immigration. 

Edited by FLEA
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