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disgruntledemployee

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1 hour ago, ihtfp06 said:


Since when? How many illegals (excuse me, undocumented immigrants) are paying Federal or State income taxes, social security, etc? Maybe they’re getting hit with local sales tax, but they’re hardly contributing what’s required of them by our tax code.

“How Much do Undocumented Workers Pay in Taxes?

The IRS estimates that undocumented immigrants pay over $9 billion in withheld payroll taxes annually. Undocumented immigrants also help make the Social Security system more solvent, as they pay into the system but are ineligible to collect benefits upon retiring. In 2010, $12 billion more was collected from Social Security payroll taxes of undocumented workers than were paid out in benefits.”

https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/

If you’re big beef is that undocumented immigrants aren’t paying their fair or taxes, even after considering the data above, then let’s bring them out of the shadows, get them work permits, and make them subject to the same taxes that citizens have to pay. I’m all for that solution. 

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as a nation of laws it just blows my mind that half of the country has zero issue with people coming here illegally. 

Illegal immigrant does not equal immigrant. That’s where the left and press are getting it wrong. 

No one is entitled to come here illegally. But that’s sure how the left sees it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Homestar said:

How does an undocumented immigrant pay taxes if they do not have a SSN or ITIN. Honest question. 

Huh, I learned something today.

 

Quote

How can Undocumented Immigrants be Hired Without a Social Security Number?

Since the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, all employers are required to verify the work eligibility of all new hires by completing Form I-9, which mandates the employee provide a Social Security number and show documents to their employer to prove work authorization and identity. U.S. citizens frequently show their driver’s license and Social Security card, but because there are a number of documents that can be used to complete the form, the worker does not necessarily need to show their actual Social Security card. Undocumented workers who are hired without valid work authorization may provide their employer a fake Social Security number, someone else’s number, or even a previously-valid number issued when they may have had work authorization that has since lapsed. Furthermore, most employers do not—and, except for certain employers,  are not required to—verify this information with any government entity at the time of hire. Additionally, employers cannot, by law, ask to see any specific or additional documents other than what the worker provides, so the Social Security number provided by an undocumented immigrant on their Form I-9 would be used by the employer to withhold payroll taxes and would be included on their W-2 form.

What Happens if an Undocumented Immigrant Uses a Fake or Someone Else’s Social Security Number?

The employer will withhold federal and payroll taxes as with any other employee and report that to the Social Security Administration (SSA) and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). SSA notes when a name and number on a submitted W-2 do not match the Social Security records and may notify an employer, but it has no authority to enforce penalties. The IRS does have enforcement power, but it rarely investigates employers—even those with a high number of suspect W-2s—both as a matter of limited resources and because of the relative ease with which the employer can show it did its due diligence as required by the law to ask the employee for a corrected number. Further, since the penalty is only a $50 fine for each mismatch, it generally is not worth the government’s time to pursue it. Even if an employer is notified of a mismatch, under immigration law it is not considered proof that a worker is undocumented, so all the employer can do is ask the employee to correct their information. Taking any sort of action to terminate the worker could violate anti-discrimination law.

How do Undocumented Workers File Tax Returns Without a Valid Social Security Number?

Though certain non-citizens are eligible for to receive Social Security numbers to pay taxes, unauthorized immigrants are ineligible to receive one. However, it is still law that individuals who reside in the United States, whether legally or not, and earn income here must pay taxes on that income, and file a tax return, regardless of whether the income was earned as an undocumented worker—a complicated legal conundrum.

Further, the IRS will not allow a tax return to be filed with a fake or stolen Social Security number. Therefore, unauthorized workers who wish to file their taxes–and potentially get future credit for it— must find another way. Thus, many use the Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, or ITIN, which allows immigrants without Social Security numbers to legally file tax returns and claim the income reported on their W-2’s to the IRS.

 

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1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

as a nation of laws it just blows my mind that half of the country has zero issue with people coming here illegally. 

Illegal immigrant does not equal immigrant. That’s where the left and press are getting it wrong. 

No one is entitled to come here illegally. But that’s sure how the left sees it. 

The old "left" of Carter and Bill Clinton are no longer driving the agenda of the Dems today...the progressives are.  Bill Clinton said he was very much against illegal immigration in the mid-90s.  The progressive left desires much bigger government control, more social programs (which require higher taxes), etc. And when studies show that immigrants, specifically those from Mexico and Latin America, are much more likely to support an increase in government funded social programs...well, there you go.  And the tradional GOP doesn't want to stop illegal immigrantion outright because that goes against cheaper labor.  So here we are.  And who loses: The middle class taxpayer, lower income Americans who work in construction, Americans who live in areas that have seen an increased amount of gang activity made up of illegal immigrants, etc.

It's sad...but when you hate what America has mostly been over the last few decades and believe it needs fixing (ACA, public option, higher taxes, etc), then this is how you see the "change".

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On 6/25/2018 at 3:49 PM, nsplayr said:

 

What do you think he means when he says, "Be careful what you wish for Max!" to his very large audience of followers?

I think he's cautioning her against the legal consequences of encouraging mob violence should her followers follow her prompting.  Or, it could be a reminder that this is an election year, and the political ramifications of people following her advice could negatively affect her chances.

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Just saying they are flooding our country because of our broken immigration system is a joke. Watch a few of the Numbers USA videos about our population growth just due to the LEGAL immigration numbers of around 1 million per year. It is unsustainable growth and our population will balloon to over 600 million in just a few decades. I’m sorry, but we cannot let in every person who just wants a better life.

We’re better served helping them increase the standard of living in their own countries. What good does it do anyone to bring our economy down over the long term? Our unfunded liabilities due to social programs alone is going to bankrupt our country, we can’t keep adding thousands to those programs each year and have any hope of staying afloat.

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13 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

Just saying they are flooding our country because of our broken immigration system is a joke. Watch a few of the Numbers USA videos about our population growth just due to the LEGAL immigration numbers of around 1 million per year. It is unsustainable growth and our population will balloon to over 600 million in just a few decades. I’m sorry, but we cannot let in every person who just wants a better life.

We’re better served helping them increase the standard of living in their own countries. What good does it do anyone to bring our economy down over the long term? Our unfunded liabilities due to social programs alone is going to bankrupt our country, we can’t keep adding thousands to those programs each year and have any hope of staying afloat.

Our population tripled between 1860 and 1920, and again between 1920 and now.  I'm not sure how you conclude that doubling it in the next few decades will overload the US.  The upper Great Plains isn't exactly crowded...

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6 hours ago, HeloDude said:

How about you respond to his question regarding income taxes?...you're intelligent enough to know the difference between income tax vs FICA taxes.

The IRS assumes that a large number of tax filers using ITINs are undocumented immigrants, and in 2015 the IRS received 4.4 million federal income tax returns using ITINs rather than SSNs, and those tax filers paid $23.6 billion in income taxes, which includes FICA, federal, and state income taxes.

Undocumented immigrants are specifically encouraged to file federal income taxes because it is a sign of "good moral character" that can be considered in the future if they become eligible to apply for permanent status.

Here's my BL: nitpicking these numbers is kinda small-ball. If you're primarily concerned with money, like I said, let's bring all the undocumented workers out of the shadows, give them some kind of legal status for work, and then they will be subject to the exact same taxes as everyone else without having to play any paperwork funny games. They'd likely still being ineligible for many of the benefits that taxes enable, so overall it's a huge net plus for our social welfare programs. In fact we're already there when it comes to FICA taxes. Undocumented immigrants pay quite a bit of FICA taxes and receive zero benefits, which greatly helps the system. It goes without saying that having a steady stream of younger, healthier, working-age folks paying into our social welfare systems while extracting very few benefits from those systems is an actuary's dream.

But I suspect that's not the solution you're looking for, so answering the money questions are not going to change a lot of minds IMHO. I'm happy to talk details if you're genuinely curious, but folks are mainly concerned with the impact of immigration on their cultural identity and seeing a place for people like themselves and their children in an American society they see as changing too fast or in ways they are uncomfortable with. Those concerns aren't unfounded, don't automatically make someone a racist (paging many on the left), deserve respect, and can't be addressed by numbers.

Those cultural identity concerns need to be addressed by talking about shared values, how everyone has a bright future in our evolving and changing society, and by painting a hopefully, forward-looking message.

My message on immigration is that in a nation of immigrants, build by immigrants, where The American Dream is that no one is bound by class or race or religion, immigration will continue to be a great source of strength and vitality, enabling the US to outlast and surpass any wanna-be competitors on the global stage. Every American and everyone around the world who aspires to be an American has a place in a truly democratic, just, and compassionate multicultural, multiracial and harmonious society. That dream has never been achieved in human history before, and it's a worthy goal for an ambitious, still-young nation and we have the best chance by far of anyone hoping to achieve it.

Chris Hayes and Ezra Klein has a great podcast on this exact topic.

//off soapbox //

Like I said before, if you'd rather nitpick tax numbers and frame this challenge in the language of infestations, rapists, gangs, drugs and violence, I'm more than happy to let you keep pitching that message.

Governor Gillespe in Virginia send his thanks to the super PACs for all those really effective MS-13 ads /sarcasm. (Ed Gillespe is a decent guy and generally moderate Republican, but he ran a very right-wing, immigration-heavy campaign for governor in my favorite commonwealth and he lost to the real-life governor, Democrat Ralph Northam).

That fact that many Democratic Party leaders are dickless in their messaging and small-minded in their policy vision around immigration (among many other things) is not an indication of the lack of potential for progress on important issues going forward.

Edited by nsplayr
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1 hour ago, MooseAg03 said:

Watch a few of the Numbers USA videos about our population growth just due to the LEGAL immigration numbers of around 1 million per year. It is unsustainable growth and our population will balloon to over 600 million in just a few decades.

- Numbers USA is explicitly an anti-immigration interest group that has all the incentives in the world to show you numbers and messaging that will make you vote for leaders who want less immigration. I'd recommend finding much more neutral data sources, like the census bureau, if you want to talk numbers.

- Census growth projections for the total US population have the numbers at 420m in 2060.

- The number of undocumented immigrants estimated to be in the country right now is lower than in 2007, reflecting negative growth in that population over the last decade.

- Recent US population growth rates have been historically slow, meaning we're in a period of slower-than-average growth.

🤷‍♂️

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Forgive me if I don’t trust numbers given to us by the government that can’t even accurately report unemployment. Apologies, the projection for 600 million was for 2100. The video was from 2010, so maybe birth rates have slowed because they forecast about 30 million more than the census bureau for 2060.

If you think cramming people into our country is only about space you’re pretty naive. How many of us grow food? What about water usage in the western half of the country? Look at the drought issues in California and Lake Meade. If we need a certain level of legal immigration for population sustainment, fine. But we should pay attention to the growth, because if growth doesn’t taper off eventually all of our cities will look like Shanghai.

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Oh and they aren’t anti-immigration, as they say on their website: they support immigration policies to protect all Americans, whether they were born in our country or not. We’re all in the same boat, they just think the numbers should be lower.

 

Numbers USA was founded in 1996 after Democrat Barbara Jordan and her US Commission on Immigration Reform suggested cutting immigration levels to around 550k per year for sustainment. Also President Clinton’s Task Force on Population and Consumption suggested even deeper cuts to annual immigration to avoid adding hundreds of millions to our population by 2100.

 

I miss old William Jefferson, his positions in the 1990s are far more Conservative than most Republicans today on immigration. Remember when there were sensible Democrats who didn’t all call for open borders and violent opposition to their political opponents?

 

 

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The US is a nation of immigrants.  There isn't a qualifier of "illegal."  If you come here without our permission, you aren't an immigrant.  You are illegal present in this country.  We should get to decide who we want to let in; you don't cross the velvet rope just because you want to. 

To grant any sort of preference to someone sneaking in absolutely nullifies our status as a nation of laws.  

It also give a huge middle finger to all those who have gone through the lengthy process of immigrating here legally.  A system, however cumbersome (it is government, after all), that is designed to ensure some basic assimilation characteristics - grasp of English, knowledge of US history, etc.  One designed to give at least a modicum of a level playing field so that the new legal citizen can try to take advantage of the American Dream.  Those who came here legally worked to make it happen.  They get it; work and you help make your own luck.

Those coming in illegally have decided they are more important and are aided and abetted by those who enable them.  Starting your stay in the US illegally should not be rewarded.

On a personal level, I don't blame 'em.  I'd want a better life as well.  But if me and however many millions of my friends sneak in, we begin to make large areas of this country just like that from which we fled.

 

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On 6/26/2018 at 5:13 PM, BashiChuni said:

as a nation of laws it just blows my mind that half of the country has zero issue with people coming here illegally. 

Illegal immigrant does not equal immigrant. That’s where the left and press are getting it wrong. 

No one is entitled to come here illegally. But that’s sure how the left sees it. 

 

For most people who wish to come to the United States, there is simply no option to come here legally. In my opinion, if someone wants to pursue to American dream so badly that they leave everything they've ever known, put their lives into the hands of untrustworthy smugglers, to come here and work in fast food, landscaping, and contracting, I say, let them. That's more American a thing to do than what most of the people in this country have ever done in their lives. More succinctly, "an unjust law is no law at all."

Practically, you are never going to be able to "defeat" illegal immigration. The incentives are too great. Migrants are routinely murdered, sold into sex slavery, or left for dead in the desert trying to get here. If that doesn't deter them, what do you think the government can possibly do? People claim to only be against illegal immigrants, legal immigration, but I rarely hear them calling for increased legal immigration (which is the one surefire way to reduce legal immigration, without government spending billions on mostly ineffective border "security").

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3 minutes ago, Stoker said:

For most people who wish to come to the United States, there is simply no option to come here legally. In my opinion, if someone wants to pursue to American dream so badly that they leave everything they've ever known, put their lives into the hands of untrustworthy smugglers, to come here and work in fast food, landscaping, and contracting, I say, let them. That's more American a thing to do than what most of the people in this country have ever done in their lives. More succinctly, "an unjust law is no law at all."

Practically, you are never going to be able to "defeat" illegal immigration. The incentives are too great. Migrants are routinely murdered, sold into sex slavery, or left for dead in the desert trying to get here. If that doesn't deter them, what do you think the government can possibly do? People claim to only be against illegal immigrants, legal immigration, but I rarely hear them calling for increased legal immigration (which is the one surefire way to reduce legal immigration, without government spending billions on mostly ineffective border "security").

I agree.  We need immigration reform, and bad.  We should be striving to make it faster, easier, and cheaper for people who want to come here legally.  Make the barriers to legal entry low enough, and the only people who will try to come here illegally will be the criminals...which makes it easier to police the borders.

 

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15 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Sure then make legal immigration easier. I’d be all about it

but we can’t take in everyone who wants to come here so where do you draw the line

100% agree...this bullshit "Undocumented Workers"narrative is pure tripe, we are either a nation of laws or we are not. 

I have compassion and embrace LEGAL immigration, 99% of us are immigrants and the backbone of this country was built on the great melting pot.  However, throwing a giant progressive hand wave at all the criminals who came here ILLEGALLY is a giant FU to those who stand in line and try to come here the right way.  Progressives have decided they don't want to enforce immigration law, what laws do you ignore next?

Very interesting video below about immigration and poverty.

 

 

 

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How are 99% of us immigrants? It bugs me when people say that we are a nation of immigrants. Actually the vast majority of us were born here and so were a lot of our ancestors. Those ancestors BUILT this nation into what it is today, we didn’t just wander up the shores of the east coast and find the greatest country on earth.

My last relative who came to the US was my great grandfather on my mom’s side in the 1890s. My oldest immigrant relatives settled in Texas in the 1780s. I agree that we should continue a certain level of legal immigration, but what do you have left when those immigrants plant roots and have families here? Americans. Not immigrants. My family assimilated as fast as they could, some were simple farmers just trying to make a living and others ran businesses that helped shape the oil industry in the 20th century. After that first generation that stepped off the boat dies, their family are no longer immigrants.

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I believe a wise man (and political party) made much ado about the phrase, "You didn't build that."

That and a current series of beer ad seem to make a lot of noise about "it's not where you came from but what you're made of."

Never mind that large helping of "illegal" in the composition stew...

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