TreeA10 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 In a different thread, I suggested that Vertigo should take in a house full of illegals and pay for their food, shelter, health care, and education. I think that would be very considerate and show what a concerned and caring person he is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Ummm...no. Not once did I suggest they want to break the law just for the sake of breaking it. And, oh yeah, the process does work. It doesn't work as well as it should, granted, but it does work. There's plenty of people who have immigrated here LEGALLY. You keep ignoring the fact that, regardless of their reasoning, they are coming here illegally. Let's give up the bleeding heart bullshit, ok? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Plenty do. They are the exception. Sorry that you find human freedom a bleeding heart concept. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Sorry that you find human freedom a bleeding heart concept. When did I suggest illegal immigration was synonymous to human freedom? You should probably stop making unsubstantiated and unsupported logical leaps. Your whole argument seems to be: 1) it's too hard to legally immigrate so it's ok; 2) human freedom is awesome, so we should just disregard everything else because human freedom is the best Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 When did I suggest illegal immigration was synonymous to human freedom? You should probably stop making unsubstantiated and unsupported logical leaps. Your whole argument seems to be: 1) it's too hard to legally immigrate so it's ok; 2) human freedom is awesome, so we should just disregard everything else because human freedom is the best Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1. No. I said the program doesn't work so we need to fix it. 2. Pretty much. Are you saying the slaves had it great even though they weren't free? They got food, shelter, were allowed to have families, had a job, right? That freedom part wasn't needed. " Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves." Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!In a different thread, I suggested that Vertigo should take in a house full of illegals and pay for their food, shelter, health care, and education. I think that would be very considerate and show what a concerned and caring person he is. And in that same thread you were obtuse in regards to private property rights. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 1. No. I said the program doesn't work so we need to fix it. 2. Pretty much. Are you saying the slaves had it great even though they weren't free? They got food, shelter, were allowed to have families, had a job, right? That freedom part wasn't needed. " Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves." Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! And in that same thread you were obtuse in regards to private property rights. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Hardly obtuse, even a caveman can understand it. You say we, the people, should open the border and let everyone in which means we, the people, pay for those items such as education, health care, etc. And since you can't give anyone anything without first taking it from someone else, it means we, the people, must pay for it in the form of taxes which monies were formerly the private property of we, the people. So, private property rights are already being stepped on before anyone steps foot through your doorway. So, if you think opening the border is the most humane act of human kindness, I invite you to demonstrate your gushing appreciation of your fellow man by stepping up by example and housing, feeding, educating, and providing for the medical needs of those you verbally support. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Hardly obtuse, even a caveman can understand it. You say we, the people, should open the border and let everyone in which means we, the people, pay for those items such as education, health care, etc. And since you can't give anyone anything without first taking it from someone else, it means we, the people, must pay for it in the form of taxes which monies were formerly the private property of we, the people. So, private property rights are already being stepped on before anyone steps foot through your doorway. So, if you think opening the border is the most humane act of human kindness, I invite you to demonstrate your gushing appreciation of your fellow man by stepping up by example and housing, feeding, educating, and providing for the medical needs of those you verbally support. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Or we fix our policies and allow those immigrants to pay into the system. But nah, let's just forego that option and instead spend those SAME tax dollars (private property being taken from you) to deny freedoms. Securing and enforcing border security isn't free. You're paying for it. And that payment will continue to grow. You're still spending tax dollars, it's just going to another function. Get it yet? Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Or we fix our policies and allow those immigrants to pay into the system. But nah, let's just forego that option and instead spend those SAME tax dollars (private property being taken from you) to deny freedoms. Securing and enforcing border security isn't free. You're paying for it. And that payment will continue to grow. You're still spending tax dollars, it's just going to another function. Get it yet? Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! I get now! My desire for national sovereignty and willingness to pay for that right is trumped by illegals and their desire to break our laws so I should just accept it and pay for it. Glad you straightened that out. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I get now! My desire for national sovereignty and willingness to pay for that right is trumped by illegals and their desire to break our laws so I should just accept it and pay for it. Glad you straightened that out. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Umm, they wouldn't be illegals if we changed the system. What you are saying is, you don't care that you have to pay more taxes. You just don't want it to go to bettering other people's lives. Nice. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Umm, they wouldn't be illegals if we changed the system. What you are saying is, you don't care that you have to pay more taxes. You just don't want it to go to bettering other people's lives. Nice. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! For such an enthusiastic cheerleader for the cause you don't want to make their lives better by letting them stay at your place. Don't you realize that these people are sleeping on concrete floors, eating cold food, aren't being educated and have a whole host of disease issues! Okay, just send me a third to a half of your paycheck and I will see that it gets to the appropriate agency so you can be a beacon of social justice. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 are you saying the slaves had it great even though they weren't free? They got food, shelter, were allowed to have families, had a job, right? That freedom part wasn't needed. " Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves." YGBFSM...are you really comparing my desire for people to simply immigrate here legally to slavery? You never cease to amaze me in the mental gymnastics you do on here Vertigo. How is trying to get people to legally immigrate denying freedom? If that's the case, please post your address so I can come by and take anything I see that I might like. You wouldn't want to deny my freedom to be happy with your stuff now, would you? And in that same thread you were obtuse in regards to private property rights. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Griswold Posted July 16, 2014 Author Share Posted July 16, 2014 Here's yet another reason to secure the border EXCLUSIVE: RELEASED ALIEN FROM BORDER CRISIS ARRESTED FOR ALLEGED MURDER, KIDNAPPING IN TEXAShttp://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/07/16/Exclusive-Released-Alien-from-Border-Crisis-Arrested-For-Alleged-Murder-Kidnapping-in-Texas Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 For such an enthusiastic cheerleader for the cause you don't want to make their lives better by letting them stay at your place. Don't you realize that these people are sleeping on concrete floors, eating cold food, aren't being educated and have a whole host of disease issues! Okay, just send me a third to a half of your paycheck and I will see that it gets to the appropriate agency so you can be a beacon of social justice. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Just as soon as you do the same with your paycheck to the Border Patrol agencies. I'm sure they'll name a building or a wing of one of their buildings after you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Just as soon as you do the same with your paycheck to the Border Patrol agencies. I'm sure they'll name a building or a wing of one of their buildings after you. Why should Tree? He's not the one arguing the terrible human rights violations of enforcing legal immigration policies... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Just as soon as you do the same with your paycheck to the Border Patrol agencies. I'm sure they'll name a building or a wing of one of their buildings after you. I'm not the one wanting to volunteer the full faith and credit of the US Treasury, i.e. We the People, to take care of millions of people who want to come here illegally. That would be you. I just thought that you felt so strongly about it that you could not in good conscious fail to contribute more of your income to help those in need. I think we can come up with a couple churches that will gladly take your money. The church will be happy, you'll be happy, and the illegal immigrants will be happy. Win, win, win. (This could be mixing Government and religion and the whole thing might go critical mass.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim richalds Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Just think of all the AQ or other jihadis that are blending in and crossing right now. Remember these days as when our country and way of life died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) I'm not the one wanting to volunteer the full faith and credit of the US Treasury, i.e. We the People, to take care of millions of people who want to come here illegally. That would be you. I just thought that you felt so strongly about it that you could not in good conscious fail to contribute more of your income to help those in need. I think we can come up with a couple churches that will gladly take your money. The church will be happy, you'll be happy, and the illegal immigrants will be happy. Win, win, win. (This could be mixing Government and religion and the whole thing might go critical mass.) Work on the reading comprehension. I don't know how many times I can say it. If you change the system, they won't be illegal. You, however, want to volunteer the full faith and credit of the US Treasury, i.e. We the People, to give to another large beauracratic government entity to hinder human freedom. So what's the difference? None, other than who is receiving our tax dollars. And with my suggestion we increase our tax base, thus allowing more people to pay in to the system, theoretically decreasing yours and my burden. With your plan we just keep paying and paying with no end. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!Why should Tree? He's not the one arguing the terrible human rights violations of enforcing legal immigration policies... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The tax dollars will be spent all the same. You want to give it for a larger federal government. I'd rather it be spent to change the system, to increase freedom not take it away. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Edited July 16, 2014 by Vertigo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Where is anyone talking about larger federal government? Or taking away freedom? You're making some impressive stretches and leaps with what I/others are saying Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Where is anyone talking about larger federal government? Or taking away freedom? You're making some impressive stretches and leaps with what I/others are saying Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Is the border going to secure itself? Are the UAVs going to fly on their own using solar power? Are these multi layer border walls going to build, maintain, and be manned for free? No? Hmm... well then I guess we'll have to increase funding to a federal entity to do all that. Restricting a human from moving to a place so they can attempt to better their lives is restricting freedom. Throwing up a wall without changing the process that currently keeps them from immigrating legally is one form of denying freedom to another. Read this- you'll understand where I'm coming from.http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2008-spring/immigration-individual-rights/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) No, that's the point of the border patrol...which already exists. I've never mentioned UAV's...anything constructed is controlled by border patrol, which again, already exists...so no gigantic growth of federal govt (I'm absolutely in favor of smaller govt) To your second point...if I show up and walk into your house, would you kick me out? I'm only trying to move to a place and better my life. You don't want to go and restrict my freedom now... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited July 16, 2014 by hispeed7721 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) No, that's the point of the border patrol...which already exists. I've never mentioned UAV's...anything constructed is controlled by border patrol, which again, already exists...so no gigantic growth of federal govt (I'm absolutely in favor of smaller govt) To your second point...if I show up and walk into your house, would you kick me out? I'm only trying to move to a place and better my life. You don't want to go and restrict my freedom now... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Sigh So these things that don't exist yet we need to secure the border are going to come free? My home is private property. The U.S. is not. Read the article, maybe learn something about the difference between private property rights and public property. You're probably too lazy to do so, so I'll point out the pertinent portion in relation to this. There are two kinds of property in America: private property and so-called “public” property. Whereas private property is owned by individuals and corporations, “public” property, which is allegedly “owned by everyone in general,” is actually owned by no one in particular. This is why no one in particular can dictate how it will or will not be used. Consider that if citizen Jones insists on permitting immigrants to enter “his” portion of “public” property, but citizen Smith insists on prohibiting immigrants to enter “his” portion, the conflict cannot be justly resolved. Someone’s “right” to “his” portion of the property “owned by everyone in general” is going to be violated. This and the countless similar conflicts arising from the notion of “public” property point to the invalidity of such property—property which, by its very nature, violates individual rights and generates an endless stream of irresolvable rights disputes. There are no facts of reality that give rise to the need for “public” property, thus there is no principle governing the use of such property; there is only this person or group’s desires against that person or group’s desires—and, of course, the old saw that “might makes right.” Since there is no principle governing the use of “public” property, there can be no principled argument for excluding immigrants from using such property. But there is a principle governing the actions that all individuals should be free to take by nature of the requirements of human life—namely, the principle of individual rights—and that principle implies that immigrants should be free to use “public” property. Americans who wish to permit immigrants to visit or use or purchase their private property have a moral right to permit them. And Americans who want to prohibit immigrants from visiting, using, or purchasing their private property have a moral right to prohibit them. But no one has a moral right to stop others from acting on their judgment. So says the basic principle of civilized society—the fundamental principle of America—the principle of individual rights. The “This is our country” argument for prohibiting or limiting immigration to America is invalid and un-American. Edited July 16, 2014 by Vertigo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2008-spring/immigration-individual-rights/ In quickly browsing through the article, I'd agree with much of it; although it seems a little less dramatic than what you are constantly arguing for So these things that don't exist yet we need to secure the border are going to come free? Uh...when did I say anything would come free? All I said was the border patrol already exists and they are/should be in charge of any border "stuff" Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Vertigo envisions every person wanting to come to this country as having higher ideals of personal responsibility and jobs skills. I like those people. My neighbor is a OB/GYN from Mexico, my sister in law is from Ukraine working on her PhD, and I've met met many other LEGAL immigrants along the way. Great people with a dream. Got no problem with that. I'm not sure what or how the current torrent of children are going to add to our tax base in contributions. Maybe we should bring back child labor. Little fingers do so much better at detail work, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 In quickly browsing through the article, I'd agree with much of it; although it seems a little less dramatic than what you are constantly arguing for Uh...when did I say anything would come free? All I said was the border patrol already exists and they are/should be in charge of any border "stuff" Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Border patrol exists, yes. But are they doing the job to your satisfaction? If so, this thread needn't exist. If not, then further resources will be required. Thus increasing the federal government. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloDude Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Vertigo, you do better when you stick to a Libertarian philosophy. If you're still for open immigration and zero welfare (especially with money from the federal level) then I'd go ahead and add it your argument...and I would agree. I'm pretty sure you've said this in the past, but it seems to be missing from your back and forth nonsense. Mathematically you can not have a prosperous country with open immigration and a government welfare state. Hell, our welfare state right now isn't treating the country well (besides the fact that I believe it be extremely unConstitutional). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurelySerious Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 My home is private property. The U.S. is not. Read the article, maybe learn something about the difference between private property rights and public property. You're probably too lazy to do so, so I'll point out the pertinent portion in relation to this. The thing that you never seem to understand (and that the article totally, in every way, ignores even in the snippet you posted gets wrong, see below) is that the U.S.A, like other countries, is a governed place. A sovereign nation, if you will, you know, with laws. Every law restricts someone in some way, but is done to reflect some kind of social norm, mostly when the actions of one start to infringe on the rights of another. When people enter the country illegally, for whatever reason, be it wanting to better their life in an upright manner or something illicit, at the least they start to benefit from whatever the government provides without contributing to it. Essentially, they defraud the government at the cost of everyone else. Defrauding is illegal. When most of the immigrants were entering via ports because they were from across an ocean, the immigrants were registered and known in at least a basic form. When they get to walk across the border at any time or place of their choosing, this isn’t the case. In your magical world, if it were legal for anyone to come across they would go straight to immigration office and register themselves because it is legal and there are no barriers. Except it wouldn’t work that way. If we were to implement legal immigration to all, it would still be in the better interest to control where the immigration happens so it can be documented and the people can be registered as citizens. Otherwise, under your free-for-all system, you’re still making the system less efficient with a bigger government that increases in size and decreases in efficiency and detracts from everyone else. This then, is where it starts to infringe on others. There are two kinds of property in America: private property and so-called “public” property. Whereas private property is owned by individuals and corporations, “public” property, which is allegedly “owned by everyone in general,” is actually owned by no one in particular. This is why no one in particular can dictate how it will or will not be used. This is a dumb position. Unspeakably. Should the government not say where roads are? Most of those are public property, where apparently no one can say how the land should be used. We also shouldn't have any government facilities because no one can say how the land should be used. All military bases, gone. No Police departments, courts, City Halls, or public parks. And no zoning laws of any kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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