"Flaming" guys in uniform?

[Troublemaker]

Taking moral cues from a book that allows slavery, stoning of people, bashing babies against rocks, rape, genocide, etc is just as absurd... or even more so.

There’s a reason the Bible isn’t used as the code of law anymore. That was tried, and it led to hundreds of years of oppression and misery culminating in the Inquisition. That wasn’t an accident, an anomaly, or the fault of a less-evolved, less-knowledgeable culture. That’s the path the Bible leads to. Immorality.

The Bible doesn't "allow" any of the things you listed. You are referring to information in the Old Testament in which there were societies that practiced some (but not all) of the things you listed. Just because an event in the Bible has those types of behaviors in it, doesn't mean the Bible is condoning such behavior. Often the Old Testament is used as a contrast to what occurred after Christ was born, walked among us and died sacrificially for us. In the Old Testament, when someone sinned, they were required to atone for those sins by sacrificing an animal in the form of a burnt offering to God. The animal symbolically took on the sins of the person. The Bible contrasts such ancient practices with God's ultimate and final decision to deal with our sins by sending his Son to symbolically take on all our sins and die for us. I won't argue that many men and women have misused and misinterpreted the information in the Bible over the centuries and caused great suffering and pain. That's on them and not due to some defect in the Bible or it's real teachings. Try actually reading it.

[Troublemaker]

With the life most homosexuals are forced to live with, it's incredible that anyone can believe that that is a concious choice.

The comparison of a person being black to a person being homosexual is entirely legitimate. Both are inborn traits.

I don't think it's a conscious choice. I do think they were born that way. How else could someone deviate so far from normal, natural behavior? Homosexuals, addicts, alcoholics, pedophiles are all born with a predisposition toward their particular problem. I don’t see anyone jumping up and down fighting for a pedophile’s rights because they were born that way. Just because you are born with a deviant, destructive problem like those doesn’t mean you just get to “go with it”. You can claim homosexuality is equivalent to race until you’re blue in the face but it won’t make it so – one is a choice to pursue base desires in direct contrast to right and wrong while the other is simply a matter of how you look.

[pawnman]

The Bible doesn't "allow" any of the things you listed. You are referring to information in the Old Testament in which there were societies that practiced some (but not all) of the things you listed. Just because an event in the Bible has those types of behaviors in it, doesn't mean the Bible is condoning such behavior. Often the Old Testament is used as a contrast to what occurred after Christ was born, walked among us and died sacrificially for us. In the Old Testament, when someone sinned, they were required to atone for those sins by sacrificing an animal in the form of a burnt offering to God. The animal symbolically took on the sins of the person. The Bible contrasts such ancient practices with God's ultimate and final decision to deal with our sins by sending his Son to symbolically take on all our sins and die for us. I won't argue that many men and women have misused and misinterpreted the information in the Bible over the centuries and caused great suffering and pain. That's on them and not due to some defect in the Bible or it's real teachings. Try actually reading it.

Actually, Paul tells slave owners in how to treat slaves, and slaves how to behave towards their owners, several times in the NT. I'll give you a hint...he never tells the owners to set their slaves free.

Lumping the Christian faith into the general melting pot of religion isn't really accurate. Religion (in terms of Christianity) is more about how you choose to practice. Being a Catholic, Methodist or Baptist is your religion. None are required - you can choose to follow Christ outside a particular denomination. Simple Christianity is nothing like what you just posted above. There's no amount of good anyone can do to be "rewarded". The reward you speak of, I assume, is forgiveness of sins and eternal life with God after you die. That "reward" is free and you can do nothing to earn it. All you have to do is believe and ask God to forgive your sins. Any good you choose to do is to make God's kingdom a better place, help believers and non-believers alike or any number of other reasons. You can't "lose" your salvation once you accept it and nothing you do can help you earn it. So, unfortunately, your whole post really makes no sense and shows how little you really understand about Christianity. Perhaps you should get some accurate facts and look into it yourself. You won't regret it.

I should introduce you to my Catholic buddy. The two of you can have a lengthy debate about faith alone or needing works to earn salvation. Even at it's most basic, Christianity is still a stick-and-carrot proposition...believe in what we tell you and you go to heaven, don't believe and you go to hell. Then you stick on a bunch of things you should do if you believe in Christ.

[Troublemaker]

Actually, Paul tells slave owners in how to treat slaves, and slaves how to behave towards their owners, several times in the NT. I'll give you a hint...he never tells the owners to set their slaves free.

The authors of the books in the Bible still lived in a time when slavery was an accepted practice. The words and messages in the Bible are God inspired but God and his words in the Bible no more controlled the free will of those in Biblical times than they do now.

I should introduce you to my Catholic buddy. The two of you can have a lengthy debate about faith alone or needing works to earn salvation.

The Catholic religion has its flaws and misinterpretations of the Bible because it's a man-made religion. I can show you plenty of scripture that supports what I said, such as:

Acts 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Your friend will have to help me find the passages that talk about needing works or how saying the Lord's prayer X number of times after confession absolves your sins.

Even at it's most basic, Christianity is still a stick-and-carrot proposition...believe in what we tell you and you go to heaven, don't believe and you go to hell. Then you stick on a bunch of things you should do if you believe in Christ.

Okay, so what's your plan then?

[Flash]

I should introduce you to my Catholic buddy. The two of you can have a lengthy debate about faith alone or needing works to earn salvation. Even at it's most basic, Christianity is still a stick-and-carrot proposition...believe in what we tell you and you go to heaven, don't believe and you go to hell. Then you stick on a bunch of things you should do if you believe in Christ.

This. I grew up experiencing just about every flavor of protestant Christianity you can imagine. I wasn't a rebel and I was a great student of the Bible and of faith in general. I had really bought into it at certain points, but later on when life forced me away from the 'fold', I realized what a self-licking ice cream cone it was. It dawned on me just how preposterous all the variations in beliefs and self-serving interpretations of scripture were to reason. Even though I knew how silly it all was, I felt guilty and ashamed for discarding all of the effort and training that I had been forced into as a younger person. Bottom line is that you can either accept the physical world for what it is proven to be, or you can play make-believe for purposes that make you sleep better at night or give you peace in the thought that you're part of something bigger plan for the universe

It was said earlier that religion makes some people live better, happier lives, and that's cool. But it also has destroyed so many relationships, lives, and even empires over the course of history that it truly is a plague on humanity.

What made it really easy for me to break away was the realization that religion is kind of like magic - people buy into it because the showmanship and theater (and fear) means that it looks great when you're in the crowd participating and being told by everyone else in the room that "this is the truth". Interestingly enough, that's exactly what cults do as well. The only difference is that a cult always haa some dude at the top that knows the whole thing's a sham. In a religion, that dude is dead.

[Flaco]

This. I grew up experiencing just about every flavor of protestant Christianity you can imagine. I wasn't a rebel and I was a great student of the Bible and of faith in general. I had really bought into it at certain points, but later on when life forced me away from the 'fold', I realized what a self-licking ice cream cone it was. It dawned on me just how preposterous all the variations in beliefs and self-serving interpretations of scripture were to reason. Even though I knew how silly it all was, I felt guilty and ashamed for discarding all of the effort and training that I had been forced into as a younger person. Bottom line is that you can either accept the physical world for what it is proven to be, or you can play make-believe for purposes that make you sleep better at night or give you peace in the thought that you're part of something bigger plan for the universe

It was said earlier that religion makes some people live better, happier lives, and that's cool. But it also has destroyed so many relationships, lives, and even empires over the course of history that it truly is a plague on humanity.

What made it really easy for me to break away was the realization that religion is kind of like magic - people buy into it because the showmanship and theater (and fear) means that it looks great when you're in the crowd participating and being told by everyone else in the room that "this is the truth". Interestingly enough, that's exactly what cults do as well. The only difference is that a cult always haa some dude at the top that knows the whole thing's a sham. In a religion, that dude is dead.

Wow dude, pretty dark picture you paint. Maybe you should check out a different church?

The people I sit in the pews with are overwhelmingly kind, humble, well-adjusted folks.

[Flash]

Wow dude, pretty dark picture you paint. Maybe you should check out a different church?

The people I sit in the pews with are overwhelmingly kind, humble, well-adjusted folks.

I never said they weren't. The cross section of a major religious group versus society in general isn't significantly different. So you'll have lots of generally nice people in the pews, for sure, simply because most folks aren't jerks.

It doesn't change what I said though. People will believe what they want to believe, and the concept of a glorious afterlife if you follow these rules is pretty much history's MO for controlling people's minds and actions and giving them a sense of purpose so that they don't ask too many questions.

[WAG]

I never said they weren't. The cross section of a major religious group versus society in general isn't significantly different. So you'll have lots of generally nice people in the pews, for sure, simply because most folks aren't jerks.

It doesn't change what I said though. People will believe what they want to believe, and the concept of a glorious afterlife if you follow these rules is pretty much history's MO for controlling people's minds and actions and giving them a sense of purpose so that they don't ask too many questions.

If you are an atheist are you saying you rejected the idea of acknowledging some kind of Creator/Moral Law Giver/Deity because of what you perceived to be the "cookies" some particular religion offered in an afterlife? I'm sorry it was that simple for you but of course that is your opinion.

On the contrary my friend. I question my faith everyday. That's what should be expected out of every religious person. In fact, you guys are helping me do that on this forum. The thing is..every time I question my faith, I still come back to the same truth. Obviously for some people like so.it.goes they reach a different conclusion. However, saying we are all just minion robots...that does not compute.

[busdriver]

I don’t see anyone jumping up and down fighting for a pedophile’s rights because they were born that way.

You do yourself no favors using this argument. Homosexuals have sex with consenting adults of the same gender. Pedophiles abuse children who are not old enough to consent. See the difference?

I should be able to do basically anything I want, that's called Liberty and until my actions infringe another person's Life/Liberty/Property the government can fuck off. ( Yes, I realize this is a hard core Libertarian view point and fully recognize it is utterly out of the realm of possibility in current American politics. )

Edited July 2, 2013 by busdriver

[matmacwc]

And religion is a fine thing until it gets forced on those that don't believe it, when it's used as a form of judgement and the basis for depriving someone else of human or civil rights. While you use it as a guide to live as a better person, that's fantastic. When you use it to judge and oppress others, that's when I have a problem with it.

As you said, this isn't a thread about religion, but it is an interesting point that nearly all arguments against marriage equality are based on the Bible and damn little else.

Really, define human rights, I know of only two places; the bible and/or the constitution,,do you have another esoteric place we should reference or follow? I have heard alot of "rights" in the media these days, none of them rights.....labor/marriage/immigration/health care.....there may be laws, but I haven't seen any of them in the constitution. I have the right to believe you are wrong for sure.

[Troublemaker]

You do yourself no favors using this argument. Homosexuals have sex with consenting adults of the same gender. Pedophiles abuse children who are not old enough to consent. See the difference?

Of course I see the difference. However, when someone argues that a homosexual should follow their urges simply because they were born with them, then the comparison is quite relevant.

I should be able to do basically anything I want, that's called Liberty and until my actions infringe another person's Life/Liberty/Property the government can ###### off. ( Yes, I realize this is a hard core Libertarian view point and fully recognize it is utterly out of the realm of possibility in current American politics. )

I agree with your hard core Libertarian view. There's a big difference between doing anything you want and asking the state/federal government (and by default the people who elected same) to support your efforts to "basically do anything I want". You want to screw some guy? Have at it. You want our government to recognize your marriage to him, files taxes with him, adopt children with him, etc. I can't support that. See the difference?

[kchsload]

Apples and oranges. Equating being gay and being black is an insult to our African American citizens and those who fought that fight. A choice someone makes in how they behave and actions they take can't be equated with someone's race.

In order to make that statement you'd have to argue that homosexuality is a choice, not innate. I, most logical people, along with the majority of researchers agree that it is a innate trait.

I don't think it's a conscious choice. I do think they were born that way.... Just because you are born with a deviant, destructive problem like those doesn’t mean you just get to “go with it”. You can claim homosexuality is equivalent to race until you’re blue in the face but it won’t make it so – one is a choice to pursue base desires in direct contrast to right and wrong while the other is simply a matter of how you look.

Bu.. wha.. you just said... Huh? So they're born with it, again, using your logic god created them this way and put them on an express lane to damnation, but it's choice they make? Why would he decide to throw such a monkey wrench into his "perfect plan," I thought he loved all of us and wanted to save us?

Do you realize that you're asking someone to not be themselves, to not do what is natural to them in order to conform to your ideals? Sorry hoss, but your definition of what's right and wrong is for you and your family to follow, don't apply your standards to others then tell them they're wrong. But then again, that's the foundation of religion, "be like me or burn in hell." I see it all the time here in Taiwan, the Mormons, the Jehovah Witnesses and other evangelical Christians, all coming over in order to alter the beliefs of a 5,000 year old society, delivering a message that essentially informs the Taiwanese that they've been doing it wrong the whole damn time! It's so nice and generous of the them to come over and correct them so they too have the chance to conform and be "saved." Oh, wait....

[hindsight2020]

As I have grown to disect and question my faith, it dawned on me that outside my formal Catholic upbrining, the fundamental driver to my behavior is and continues to be based on the premise of reciprocity. This commonly gets refered to as the Golden Rule. Expanding that notion to humanity at large, it stands rather clearly then that the combination of:

1)fear-of-harm/pain/untimely-death at the hands of other humans, and

2) the self-initiated desire to self-actualize (unexplainable inherent sense of purpose)

..leads one to opt for and favor co-existing behavior in society. Religion is therefore a man-made social custom to formalize that inherent desire to thrive in an environment where absent those precepts of behavior, one would die in an untimely manner at the hands of a stronger neighbor. We're literally proposing coexistence in order to not die at each other's hands so that we get to achieve our sense of purspose, which drives us to think, question, breathe and feel.

I do believe in an invisible entity in the sky from the perspective of the relative uniqueness of our condition in a world where no other peer species exist to interact with us at the self-actualizing level. Condition which I haven't witnessed in animals nor those pesky UFOs that never stick around long enough to make themselves indisputable, is what cements my belief in the metaphysical. Other than that, to each their own. I certainly will not use my Christianity to yoke or otherwise prosletize others. Which makes me a pretty bad Christian I suppose...but at the onset I admitted I was a cafeteria catholic so I'm good in my own skin. I do think the more orthodox/literal interpreters of our religious precepts make us Believers look a bit crazy and non-coexistent in the bigger scheme. I wish they weren't the formative voices of the Faith by imposition. In the end I fall back to (1) and (2) for my own morality. That seems to be agreeable to atheists, and all but the most intolerant Believers, alike. The fucked up thing is, this philosophical approach to religion is more likely to piss off the aforementioned Christians than the Atheists...

[busdriver]

Of course I see the difference. However, when someone argues that a homosexual should follow their urges simply because they were born with them, then the comparison is quite relevant.

No it isn't. One involves consenting adults the other does not, why is that so hard to understand? I'll try one last time, if my thing is to tie up my chick, I'll seek out a chick that likes to be tied up, that's consent. If another dudes thing is little boys, that's rape. I can accept the first, never would I accept the second.

You want our government to recognize your marriage to him, files taxes with him, adopt children with him, etc. I can't support that. See the difference?

This is a bit of a tangent, but there should be no financial benefits to being married, the government should tax individuals end of story.

As to adoption, if you seriously believe a child would be better off not being adopted and staying in the system than being adopted by a stable gay couple (ignoring the sperm bank option for the lesbians, which fucks up your argument) I don't know what to say to you.

Let me ask you this: Say a Muslim (insert any group who's morals you disagree with) couple wants to adopt, should the government also restrict them from adopting? What if the only tenant of Christianity (in your view) that a gay couple breaks is sodomy, otherwise they are model Christians, this is such a big sin that they need to be lumped in with pedophiles? Seriously?

[Hammer]

This thread is gay.

[Troublemaker]

In order to make that statement you'd have to argue that homosexuality is a choice, not innate. I, most logical people, along with the majority of researchers agree that it is a innate trait.

Bu.. wha.. you just said... Huh? So they're born with it, again, using your logic god created them this way and put them on an express lane to damnation, but it's choice they make? Why would he decide to throw such a monkey wrench into his "perfect plan," I thought he loved all of us and wanted to save us?

Do you realize that you're asking someone to not be themselves, to not do what is natural to them in order to conform to your ideals? Sorry hoss, but your definition of what's right and wrong is for you and your family to follow, don't apply your standards to others then tell them they're wrong. But then again, that's the foundation of religion, "be like me or burn in hell." I see it all the time here in Taiwan, the Mormons, the Jehovah Witnesses and other evangelical Christians, all coming over in order to alter the beliefs of a 5,000 year old society, delivering a message that essentially informs the Taiwanese that they've been doing it wrong the whole damn time! It's so nice and generous of the them to come over and correct them so they too have the chance to conform and be "saved." Oh, wait....

I can understand why I confused you with my use of the word choice when discussing the race comparison. I meant it in the context that even though a gay person might be born that way, they still choose to act on their urges for lack of a better term (unlike an African America who simply is that way). God creates or allows lots of challenges for us all. Some are more difficult than others for sure. I'm not "asking" anyone to do anything. We're all born with the propensity to sin. That's who we are - fallen, flawed humans. So, the "gotta be myself and do what comes natural" argument isn't really going to wash when it comes to God. He has a plan for us all and I can't pretend to be in the know on it. He creates downs syndrome children, terminally ill infants, people with physical handicaps - it runs the gamut. Our free will allows many of us to make really poor decisions that put us in very difficult circumstances. Whatever challenge we face (whether we're born with it, create it ourselves or it finds us), he wants us to find our strength to deal with it through Him. Then our story of success through hardship glorifies Him and draws others to faith and similar success. Of course he loves us and wants to save us and fulfill his plan for each of us. Maybe the challenge is for a person with same sex attraction to not act on that, strengthen their faith and relationship with God and abstain. Maybe their faith and prayer results in a change to their attraction and they become a source of hope for other with the same struggle. I don't pretend to know. To be clear, the "ideals" you refer to are not mine and it's not my definition of right and wrong. I didn't right the Bible or make the declaration that a man should not lie with another man. I'm just trying to live by them.

[SCRIMP]

Some of y'all need some perspective. Next time you are over in the Stan, please feel free to swing by the PEDRO pad and clean the blood out of the back of our helicopters. I don't care if the patients in the back of my bird (dying, missing limbs, dead) are gay, straight, tuck their junk back and cluck like a chicken...they deserve equal rights. Their partners deserve equal rights if they are are one of the unlucky who don't make it back home.

IEDs do not discriminate...why should we?

[matmacwc]

Some of y'all need some perspective. Next time you are over in the Stan, please feel free to swing by the PEDRO pad and clean the blood out of the back of our helicopters. I don't care if the patients in the back of my bird (dying, missing limbs, dead) are gay, straight, tuck their junk back and cluck like a chicken...they deserve equal rights. Their partners deserve equal rights if they are are one of the unlucky who don't make it back home.

IEDs do not discriminate...why should we?

And I agree with that.

[di1630]

Homophobia is gay, so don't be a homo.

[Prozac]

Personally, I'm with George Carlin. I pray to Joe Pesci because he seems like a guy who can get shit done.

[DEVIL]

<Sigh>....and just when I thought this discussion was getting into the more important subjects about morality and truth. It's back to this talking point again. I guess its one step forward two steps back on this forum. So from where do we derive our sense of absolute right and wrong, again?

Sorry for the delayed response.

I derive my sense of absolute right and wrong from the idea that I want to leave this planet better than when I showed up. I want everyone to be happy doing their own thing as long as it doesn't harm others. I don't do this because I feel like if I don't I'm not gunna get into heaven, I do it because I learned in kindergarten not to hurt people, lie, steal, or be an asshole, I learned it in baseball, team work, competitiveness with rules, working towards a common goal. I didn't learn it from the bible. I learned it from my parents who didn't push religion on me. I'm a good person because I want this place to not suck.

I believe in baseball.

[pawnman]

The authors of the books in the Bible still lived in a time when slavery was an accepted practice. The words and messages in the Bible are God inspired but God and his words in the Bible no more controlled the free will of those in Biblical times than they do now.

The Catholic religion has its flaws and misinterpretations of the Bible because it's a man-made religion. I can show you plenty of scripture that supports what I said, such as:

Acts 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Your friend will have to help me find the passages that talk about needing works or how saying the Lord's prayer X number of times after confession absolves your sins.

Okay, so what's your plan then?

We can start with James 2:14-17

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

My plan? I'm just going to live my life without regard for a deity who has shown a marked reluctance to intervene when his "most beloved creations" need him the most.

[Troublemaker]

We can start with James 2:14-17

My plan? I'm just going to live my life without regard for a deity who has shown a marked reluctance to intervene when his "most beloved creations" need him the most.

You and I are actually discussing a topic that is a bit more complex than either of the simple Bible quotes we've used. It's easy to take quotes from the Bible out of context to make a particular point - that's why so many people in history were able to misuse and misinterpret the Bible resulting in the terrible actions some people have made reference to here. I have an excellent website that can address James 2 and the faith/works issue (and many other if you're interested): http://carm.org/grace-or-works Before you write off God, take a look at the site and use it to answer some of the questions you may have. It's certainly better than me, I'm no Bible scholar. God's actions in our life aren't always what we expect or think we need - just because he didn't do what YOU think he should of done in a particular situation isn't a good reason to disregard him. Take a look at the site.

[HossHarris]

For those that wonder where a moral "right and wrong" hierarchy come from WITHOUT a religious underpinning (or dictate), I would suggest taking a freshman level college philosophy course.

//Pastifarian

[WAG]

So what I'm gathering here (from some of you) is that I should not be denied the right to walk around in this country nude since I am not actually victimizing anybody? Roger that! Out.

Edited July 3, 2013 by WAG