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What's wrong with the Air Force?


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So the draft outline for the script for Top Gun 2 has leaked (probably Trump and/or Russians.  Same thing, right?):     "TOP GUN 2:  This Time It's Non-Gender Specific"   Having be

I'm deployed and busy. I still check the forum to see what's new. I'm tired of reading posts from whiners who continue to bitch and moan about not being required to get an AAD until Col. Drama quee

Just as I would never trivialize the sacrifices or challenges our airmen faced in Vietnam or WWII, I would expect our officers to not trivialize the sacrifices and challenges our military has faced si

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6 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I need you guys to check me. I think I'm in shoe clerk hell. Rant light on:

"If airmen can't complete said obstacle course, they can't graduate. They should be on medical hold. While at this obstacle course they need to practice MOPP and combative skills training to graduate blah blah.."

Me: Enlisted airmen aren't the ones taking out the bad guys based on my deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan unless they are a JTAC or a Sensor Operator. I don't think the CSAF is going to be happy you held a pharmacy tech back because they rolled an ankle and couldn't do an obstacle course. Chances are the CSAF doesn't want to wait 2 hours to pick up his medication at the pharmacy just like the rest of us. Is a rolled ankle going to prevent you from completing tech school to hand out meds? No, then he or she should graduate. The same could be said about  other AFSCs in the AF. Before you deploy you typically receive the training you actually need. 

Am I out of order with my thinking?

Nope. Spot on. Much like the O senior leadership I have found myself speechless at some of the bs that comes out of our senior Es. Mostly being the near 20 year types that were prob young NCOs around the safety belt/sock inspection era. Don’t get me wrong, some of these guys are shit hot, but more than a few are off their rocker. My old unit had a shirt that was non aircrew, he spent most his day wondering the squadron correcting people for “only having their backpack on their right shoulder”, (didn’t know that was even a thing) asking the last time they shaved, open zippers and other non sense. Meanwhile some of Es had real issues that needed mentoring/help and were to afraid to talk to him because he was such a dick. 

I would say it’s a systematic problem with our E culture to blindly follow rules to the T, without ever wondering if they have meant the intent of the reg/pub/rule/course. 

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Agreed. And why have a chief parking spot when every person that out ranks him can park there. Never understood that one.

 

Over powering senior E’s with a lack of guidance to properly carry out the mission is a major problem. As well as people and organizations who support the mission (which is essentially everyone) thinking they are the mission and forgetting they support something else other than themselves. (Again pretty much everyone)

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3 hours ago, Prozac said:

Why does a pharmacy tech need to be a uniformed military member? Seriously. That question applies to any number of jobs. 

A pharmacy tech told me the CSAF has to pick up his meds too. Civilian pharmacy techs at a certain base be like, "we are out at 1700...peace." But the CSAF needs his meds and he called to say he would be late. Oh, our civilians.....

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A pharmacy tech told me the CSAF has to pick up his meds too. Civilian pharmacy techs at a certain base be like, "we are out at 1700...peace." But the CSAF needs his meds and he called to say he would be late. Oh, our civilians.....


Staying until 1700 everyday could be an improvement, depending on which base you're at.

To your point, I bet they believe warriors need an obstacle course. ...and that, my friend, is what we are/are making motherfvcking warriors.

Now recite the Airman's Creed out loud,
~Bendy
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21 minutes ago, Bender said:

Staying until 1700 everyday could be an improvement, depending on which base you're at.


To your point, I bet they believe warriors need an obstacle course. ...and that, my friend, is what we are/are making motherfvcking warriors.

Now recite the Airman's Creed out loud,
~Bendy

 

If you want airmen to be expeditionary then you have to train for the fight. All these training days off medical and finance receive, some needs to be converted into days where they shoot, practice MOPP, and combative skills. Most of them will never use this training unless they PCS to Korea to sit in MOPP gear.

When a base was attacked in Afghanistan, a bad ass from special forces went outside the wire to kill one of the insurgents in PT gear. Watching it on video looked really cool. Wasn't AF that ran outside of the wire. When the bases are being attacked it's Special Forces or a Task Force that rolls up the bad people. 

Does anyone remember the attack on Camp Learherneck in Afghanistan where the insurgents took out 2 harrier jets? So insurgents were able to penetrate a base held by Marines. Just think about a base with only shoe clerks and Security Forces protecting the base and aircraft.

Shoe Clerk Airbase: "The insurgents are attacking! Did they not see the sign on the gate because we are doing training and X-mas party planning."

Insurgents: Oh, we will come back later.
 

Edited by HarleyQuinn
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22 minutes ago, Bender said:

 


Staying until 1700 everyday could be an improvement, depending on which base you're at.

 

 

Better than "closed for training" all day long. Or how it seems every admin office decides they all need to take lunch at the same time rather than split it up because we couldn't actually be available to those they're supporting. That sounds like work. 

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1 hour ago, LiquidSky said:

Better than "closed for training" all day long. Or how it seems every admin office decides they all need to take lunch at the same time rather than split it up because we couldn't actually be available to those they're supporting. That sounds like work. 

SARM office was pulling that crap. I rolled in on them hot. Where is SARM? Lunch... leaving early..WTH?  Have to work at the Med Group or in the MPS for those types of hours.

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If you want airmen to be expeditionary then you have to train for the fight. All these training days off medical and finance receive, some needs to be converted into days where they shoot, practice MOPP, and combative skills. Most of them will never use this training unless they PCS to Korea to sit in MOPP gear.
When a base was attacked in Afghanistan, a bad ass from special forces went outside the wire to kill one of the insurgents in PT gear. Watching it on video looked really cool. Wasn't AF that ran outside of the wire. When the bases are being attacked it's Special Forces or a Task Force that rolls up the bad people. 
Does anyone remember the attack on Camp Learherneck in Afghanistan where the insurgents took out 2 harrier jets? So insurgents were able to penetrate a base held by Marines. Just think about a base with only shoe clerks and Security Forces protecting the base and aircraft.
Shoe Clerk Airbase: "The insurgents are attacking! Did they not see the sign on the gate because we are doing training and X-mas party planning."
Insurgents: Oh, we will come back later.
 


You mean Camp Bastion where they destroyed 6 Harriers?
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2 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

If you want airmen to be expeditionary then you have to train for the fight. All these training days off medical and finance receive, some needs to be converted into days where they shoot, practice MOPP, and combative skills. Most of them will never use this training unless they PCS to Korea to sit in MOPP gear.

When a base was attacked in Afghanistan, a bad ass from special forces went outside the wire to kill one of the insurgents in PT gear. Watching it on video looked really cool. Wasn't AF that ran outside of the wire. When the bases are being attacked it's Special Forces or a Task Force that rolls up the bad people. 
 

If you want your finance troop to be effective at combat, then you have to actually train them properly on how to be effective. That means training with firearm outside the CATM range doing convoy ops, base defense, CQB, etc. Otherwise they are just checking off items to green up a slide and are more of a liability than an asset. 

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1 hour ago, Bode said:

At the time yes it was a joint installation. Now there is only a USMC component and AF det.


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It was the single largest loss of Marine aircraft in an attack ever. If I remember right. 

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10 hours ago, Prozac said:

Why does a pharmacy tech need to be a uniformed military member? Seriously. That question applies to any number of jobs. 

They don’t have to be, but it helps, here is why: you can’t force a civilian to come in at 2200 on a Saturday to give malaria pills or ambien to aircrew deploying short notice the next day.  Also, it’s a lot harder to fire civilians when they suck at their jobs.  

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10 hours ago, Prozac said:

Why does a pharmacy tech need to be a uniformed military member? Seriously. That question applies to any number of jobs. 

Same reason the US is still in Afghanistan, with no end state in mind and zero incentive to ever win.  ForeverWar feeds the jobs program that is the Defense Industrial Complex.  

As another poster pointed out- once you realize the purpose of the DoD is to spend taxpayer money, everything starts to make sense.

 

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It was the single largest loss of Marine aircraft in an attack ever. If I remember right. 

 

It was also over in minutes. Not before Marines on the flight line led by the squadron commander (who was KIA) dropped whatever they were doing to stand too and fight. Those Marines were reinforced by Rangers from TF 3-10 and the insurgents basically died fighting in place.

 

They took out every Harrier in the squadron (9 at the base) with a platoon size element that snuck through the post incident identified serious security hazard of a shanty town allowed to build up next to the perimeter fence. Dudes were wearing a cobbling together of stolen Coalition uniforms and sneakers/small arms with a bunch of grenades they used to demo the aircraft. Once they got a fire going, the moved to the next in succession. Doesn’t take long for aircraft in parking to end up like this 7e67ad8de4228cb8dd3d19500a463aa3.jpg

 

It didn’t help the night of the attack it was near zero illumination and crap ceilings. So complacency of “nothings going down tonight, let’s play some Xbox” was in full effect.

 

After that we finally got some level of security with T walls and an active security force in the towers at Mustang Ramp in KAF. We obviously completely forgot all those lessons though after my last trip to Taji.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lawman said:

 

It was also over in minutes. Not before Marines on the flight line led by the squadron commander (who was KIA) dropped whatever they were doing to stand too and fight. Those Marines were reinforced by Rangers from TF 3-10 and the insurgents basically died fighting in place.

 

They took out every Harrier in the squadron (9 at the base) with a platoon size element that snuck through the post incident identified serious security hazard of a shanty town allowed to build up next to the perimeter fence. Dudes were wearing a cobbling together of stolen Coalition uniforms and sneakers/small arms with a bunch of grenades they used to demo the aircraft. Once they got a fire going, the moved to the next in succession. Doesn’t take long for aircraft in parking to end up like this 7e67ad8de4228cb8dd3d19500a463aa3.jpg

 

It didn’t help the night of the attack it was near zero illumination and crap ceilings. So complacency of “nothings going down tonight, let’s play some Xbox” was in full effect.

 

After that we finally got some level of security with T walls and an active security force in the towers at Mustang Ramp in KAF. We obviously completely forgot all those lessons though after my last trip to Taji.

 

 

 

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Loved flying over that house directly on the fence every day and picturing a dude stepping out with an RPG and making things interesting

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Expeditionary Mindset - Complete loss of SA on the peacetime aspect when you are captured because you strayed across a border during an exercise in a military vehicle. How do you handle yourself? Thinking of Navy P-3 crew who declared an IFE and landed an ISR asset in China. They received specialized training for peacetime that I was fortunate enough to attend as well.

Most countries will quickly realize SrA Hung and SSgt Ball are just finance troops. They strayed across the border because both were playing Fortnite on their phones or using the  Polish Tinder app.

 

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How many aircraft has the USAF lost to ground attack since the Vietnam War?

A look back at ground attacks on USAF Air Bases, Aircraft Destroyed/Damaged, Casualties, and Evolution of USAF Air Base Defense during the Vietnam War (1964-1973).

- Total Attacks; 475.

- Aircraft Destroyed/Damaged; US Aircraft Destroyed 75/US Aircraft Damaged 898 and RVN Aircraft Destroyed 25/RVN Aircraft Damaged 305.

- Casualties; US Casualties KIA-155/WIA-1702 and RVN Casualties KIA-154/WIA 504. 

- Data from 10 USAF Air Bases; Bien Hoa (BH); Binh Thny (BT); Cam Ranh Bay (CBR): Da Nang (DN); Nha
Trang (NT); Phan Rang (PR); Phu Cat (PC); Pleiku (PK); Tuy Hoa (TH); Tan Son
Nhut (TSN).
- Type of attacks: Standoff (m); Sapper (SAP); Standoff and Sapper Multi-
Battalion (MBN); Sabotage (SAB); Automatic Weapons (AWP).

 

https://media.defense.gov/2010/Sep/21/2001330253/-1/-1/0/AFD-100921-023.pdf

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Lawman said:

 So complacency of “nothings going down tonight, let’s play some Xbox” was in full effect.

I had internet in my CHU in Iraq and B-Hut in Afghanistan. The internet was really good in Afghanistan.  Got on top of my CHU in Iraq and slapped a 4 ft antenna on top and never had to go to the Community Center. You think I'm rolling out of my CHU with my M-9 with my baby momma on video chat looking all good? 

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I had internet in my CHU in Iraq and B-Hut in Afghanistan. The internet was really good in Afghanistan.  Got on top of my CHU in Iraq and slapped a 4 ft antenna on top and never had to go to the Community Center. You think I'm rolling out of my CHU with my M-9 with my baby momma on video chat looking all good? 

 

The shit people forget is Bastion wasn’t the first attack. It was the 4th.

 

Salerno, they hit it and got plastered. Just a poor combined attack and timing basically blowing their wad on the VBIED and then strolling in after the shock and audacity effect had already worn off.

 

Frontnac, they hit well and got in but had no clear goal other than “attack!” Ended up dead but took the chow hall with them.

 

Shank... huge VBIED cement truck. But they hit the bazaar and really only killed a lot of Afghans.

 

After each of those we did... pretty much nothing.

 

After Bastion people suddenly remembered this was a war and actions like the brigade at KAF put the pathfinders on the line in the dark because we had no idea if we were next. T walls instead of a cheap unguarded chain link fence. Crew chiefs were launching aircraft strapped, because of anything is more vulnerable than a parked aircraft it’s a parked aircraft with an APU and engines running. Really it was a wake up call to stop pretending just because you could go to the boardwalk and get ice cream you weren’t in a war zone.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lawman said:

Really it was a wake up call to stop pretending just because you could go to the boardwalk and get ice cream you weren’t in a war zone.

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What do you have against ice cream on the boardwalk? 🤣😂 But seriously, I appreciate your perspective because it gives me even more ammunition against shoe clerks who not only think they know what they are talking about, but don't even have the clearance to know how things really work. 

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Couldn't find a better place to put this; I wonder if Gen Johns will cite himself as a contributing factor to the issue by driving out a lot of experienced pilots from his time as AMC/CC.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/11/07/congress-names-aviation-crisis-panel-members/?utm_campaign=Socialflow+MIL&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social

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8 hours ago, Lawman said:

After Bastion people suddenly remembered this was a war and actions like the brigade at KAF put the pathfinders on the line in the dark because we had no idea if we were next. T walls instead of a cheap unguarded chain link fence. Crew chiefs were launching aircraft strapped, because of anything is more vulnerable than a parked aircraft it’s a parked aircraft with an APU and engines running. Really it was a wake up call to stop pretending just because you could go to the boardwalk and get ice cream you weren’t in a war zone.

I don't understand how any one can consider a "conflict" like Afghanistan a "War" zone.  Yes stuff is exploding, people are dying, but I'm sorry when you've been at it this long it can't be considered a War any more.  It's like the 3 star making a plea to a auditorium full of pilots that are approaching their ADSC to please stay in because we are needed to keep releasing bombs, support the war etc etc.  I'm sorry but when I've been deploying to that conflict for my entire 12 years in, when that conflict was already 6 years old the whole point becomes lost. 

This isn't an excuse for people to get complacent, because that can easily mean you are risking others and your own lives while out there. But calling this long term live action shooting range a "War" gives it too much credit.    

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1 hour ago, DirtyFlightSuit said:

I don't understand how any one can consider a "conflict" like Afghanistan a "War" zone.  Yes stuff is exploding, people are dying, but I'm sorry when you've been at it this long it can't be considered a War any more.....

This isn't an excuse for people to get complacent, because that can easily mean you are risking others and your own lives while out there. But calling this long term live action shooting range a "War" gives it too much credit.    

Afghanistan is definitely a war.  What is the timeline when a war becomes a conflict in your mind?  

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