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What's wrong with the Air Force?


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So essentially the AF is so systemically dysfunctional, that not even an inspirational and respected leader--placed at the very top--can affect the service in a lasting and meaningful way? Sounds about right I guess.

It sounds right because it is. I've never met the CSAF, but he seems like a solid bro who's trying to get shit done. I have met and worked with a couple hundred CGOs, NCOs, and Airmen. For the most part they're good people doing amazing stuff. So if the problem isn't the top or bottom, then it must be somewhere in between.

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the guys who are Sq/CCs now are the ones who were burned by decision to unmask AAD last time. Therefore they have no trust and actually think they're helping you not get painted into the same corner they did.

I don't agree with them, but as with any advice, consider the source.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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the guys who are Sq/CCs now are the ones who were burned by decision to unmask AAD last time. Therefore they have no trust and actually think they're helping you not get painted into the same corner they did.

I don't agree with them, but as with any advice, consider the source.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's probably the crux of it. Little to no trust remains within the system and so guys are forced to play defensively.

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In my US Airways indoc class, out of 7 military dudes, 5 were DGs from CGO level PME. If you want to get hired by an airline, make sure to check that container.

There seems to be so much wrong with this post.

1. Why are pilots making DG at SOS?

2. Why would any airline care?

3. Why are DG types bailing out?

4. Why doesn't the AF care?

5. Finally, I'm very confident the pilot interview board members were not DG at SOS!

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There seems to be so much wrong with this post.

1. Why are pilots making DG at SOS?

2. Why would any airline care?

3. Why are DG types bailing out?

4. Why doesn't the AF care?

5. Finally, I'm very confident the pilot interview board members were not DG at SOS!

...not sure if serious?

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...not sure if serious?

I'm not the greatest communicator, I guess. Probably because I never went to a PME school. All multiple choice via mail...

The point I was trying to make is that being DG at SOS is not very important to Airline recruiters.

Conversely, the AF should be concerned why some of their top performers are leaving.

Maybe I missed some sarcasm in Vetter's original post?

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I'm not the greatest communicator, I guess. Probably because I never went to a PME school. All multiple choice via mail...

The point I was trying to make is that being DG at SOS is not very important to Airline recruiters.

Conversely, the AF should be concerned why some of their top performers are leaving.

Maybe I missed some sarcasm in Vetter's original post?

SOS DG != top performer.

Sometimes, yes, but not always.

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The issue isn't whether or not the airlines care about SOS DGs, or even why SOS DGs are leaving the Air Force. The issue is why the Air Force has determined that SOS DG is somehow an accurate indicator of leadership ability/potential. It's truly amazing how content the Air Force is to watch so much talent and potential walk right out the door everyday. "Thanks for your service!"

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You know who cares about SOS DGs? Other Captains at SOS. And maybe some Lts hoping to someday go to SOS. I have never once heard anyone above O-3 talk about SOS DGs. Will it make it to the PRF? Yep. That's pretty much it.

Unfortunately, you couldn't be more wrong. I've seen commanders ask for year group lists that included if they have been a Flt/CC, completed a masters and if they were an SOS DG. Every rack and stack that I've seen at the Group and Wing level had a column for whether or not you were an SOS DG. Oddly, the people at the top of the lists were always SOS DGs. Recently a "nobody" in my Wing went from barely having a crappy squadron level strat to suddenly getting a Wing CGO strat. The only reason that I could see for this happening was that he "returned from SOS as a DG."

I can't tell you how much I hate SOS and the weight that SOS DG carries. It makes me sick.

Edited because I can't write good.

Edited by Spartacus
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As an SOS DG, I can tell you that it is complete crap how much weight is put on it. I got DG because my flight did really well at the point earning events and I tried to help out in that regard. I have several bros that were better individually than I was while at SOS but did not earn DG due to the fact that their flight didn't do well.

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You know who cares about SOS DGs? Other Captains at SOS. And maybe some Lts hoping to someday go to SOS. I have never once heard anyone above O-3 talk about SOS DGs. Will it make it to the PRF? Yep. That's pretty much it.

I got back from SOS and the first thing the CC asked was, "Did you reing home any hardware?" I started laughing and he knew that was a completely ridiculous question.

After speaking with an SOS instructor I went to college with, it turns out you just have to be a good writer with the current SOS system. It's based on grades and nothing else. DG is determined before the final peer evals.

And lastly, you say no one cares about DG. I knew a fellow capt who posted that shit on Facebook when he DG'd...yea, drink it in. Future commander in the making.

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No, I said that only other Captains care about DG at SOS. Maybe I should qualify it by saying that nobody in my community ever cared about your SOS DG, or your ROTC DG, or your USAFA Top 10%, or your UPT DG. Nobody. Ever. Except on your PRF...where it belongs.

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No, I said that only other Captains care about DG at SOS. Maybe I should qualify it by saying that nobody in my community ever cared about your SOS DG, or your ROTC DG, or your USAFA Top 10%, or your UPT DG. Nobody. Ever. Except on your PRF...where it belongs.

Why does it belong on your PRF? How does being a good writer = potential to lead in the next grade? How is it that your performance amongst a bunch of random capts means that you'll be the next chief of staff? I understand what you're saying, but it goes back to the fact that we weigh DG so heavily when it doesn't mean shit.

I know another DG who's got a fukcin 15lb brain but can't perform the simplest of tasks. What leadership quality does he have?

Sure it's a good way of identifying a few truly good dudes, but that would mean DG is voted on by your peers. Who do we collectively think is a good dude who can get shit done? I'm not saying we wait til Nov and vote on our DG's/future AF leaders, but if they valued the peer evals then I think the DG would be a little more accurate.

I've had 2 good Sq/CCs that I would follow anywhere. But I've also had about 5 others who were SOS DG and can't lead for shit.

We all know they're out there, the trick is to fly low enough to avoid them.

Edited cause I don't spell so much goodly

Edited by Herkasaurus
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Why does it belong on your PRF? How does being a good writer = potential to lead in the next grade? How is it that your performance amongst a bunch of random capts means that you'll be the next chief of staff? I understand what you're saying, but it goes back to the fact that we weigh DG so heavily when it doesn't mean shit.

I know another DG who's got a fukcin 15lb brain but can't perform the simplest of tasks. What leadership quality does he have?

Sure it's a good way of identifying a few truly good dudes, but that would mean DG is voted on by your peers. Who do we collectively think is a good dude who can get shit done? I'm not saying we wait til Nov and vote on our DG's/future AF leaders, but if they valued the peer evals then I think the DG would be a little more accurate.

I've had 2 good Sq/CCs that I would follow anywhere. But I've also had about 5 others who were SOS DG and can't lead for shit.

We all know they're out there, the trick is to fly low enough to avoid them.

Edited cause I don't spell so much goodly

So does any DG belong on a PRF or should we eliminate all DGs across all programs in the AF? I'm talking ROTC, SOS, FTUs, all initial skills training?

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

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So does any DG belong on a PRF or should we eliminate all DGs across all programs in the AF? I'm talking ROTC, SOS, FTUs, all initial skills training?

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

Wait, what?

Lots of difference between DG at an FTU and DG at SOS. One shows you have skills in your primary duty. The other one shows.......

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Wait, what?

Lots of difference between DG at an FTU and DG at SOS. One shows you have skills in your primary duty. The other one shows.......

Wait, what? All of them are of limited value since it is an evaluation over a short period of time. C-130 FTU is for example is 4-6 months long...why should a DG there catapult you to the top of the heap versus a guy out hacking the mission everyday. Primary duty performance is evaluated 24/7, 365 through your OPR. Eliminating all DGs would take out short periods of performance "surge" graded against only those in your class versus the larger pool of CGOs in your unit. Why not eliminate them all and only allow duty performance evaluation by your supervisor, Sq/CC and Wg/CC documented through your OPR?

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

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Lots of difference between DG at an FTU and DG at SOS. One shows you have skills in your primary duty. The other one shows.......

Take this line of thought to its logical conclusion, and you will have answered your own question. For better or worse, the AF believes its PME is a critical piece of crafting it's senior officers (enlisted, too, but we're talking about SOS). You can argue for or against that all day, and possibly even have a case against it, but that's clearly the state of affairs as it exists today. Another "clearly the state of affairs" is that every officer is to be groomed as a potential general. Put those two together, and the "primary duty" you cite becomes being an officer, and a PME DG (to the institutional eyes of the AF) is therefore more important than DG from an FTU.

A better question altogether is why DG (from any source) is assumed to be such an indisputable indicator of quality. It's a snapshot--no more, no less.

I don't have an answer to the problem. As an ORF, I also don't sweat it any longer.... :beer:

ETA: Herk Driver beat me to the "snapshot" comment....

Edited by Jughead
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Wait, what?

Lots of difference between DG at an FTU and DG at SOS. One shows you have skills in your primary duty. The other one shows.......

Please, as a prior FTU instructor getting DG sometimes is just luck of who you flew with/checked with and whatever grade they wanted to fill out in the Rec/Check database. It's as flawed as PME DG.

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I've always thought DGs were shady. In pilot training I saw a guy bust 3 checkrides in 38s but still get DG. The most checkride busts anyone else in the class had was 1. I've seen supervisors and leadership basically pull DGs out of their a$$ to take care of guy that they liked. I also recently saw someone who is a complete slug get a Wing level strat because he was a DG out of the FTU.

DGs are definitely flawed.

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