Tnkr Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Who would you rather follow into combat, the one who is dignified and would never stoop to looking goofy on the internet, or the one who knows their people and isn't afraid to occasionally look a little foolish for them? No issues with foolishness, just with anything that can be seen by millions and lasts forever. Just like how we all say we'd never speak to the media. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PropWash Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Because the constitution was written by Christians, that included the words freedom from religion....oh wait, they didn't include that. This is a bullshit platitude. Here's an example of the Supreme Court disagreeing with you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale. There are several others. In all my years in the military, I don't specifically recall ever hearing the words 'Jesus' or 'Christ' in a military prayer (I'm sure it has happened, but if I can't remember it then it must not happen too often). Heard it yesterday at a mass awards/promotion ceremony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I'm cool with one's personal religion/philosophy being discussed at personal events...like a promotion ceremony or a retirement. But that's about it. I agree on it being weird (and I'm a Christian) that people are invited to pray at an official ceremony that is inclusive (awards dinner, change of command). Didn't they also recently take out the 'So help me God' portion of the oath if the member chose not to say it? (I'm too lazy to look it up)...either way, I'm cool with that too. Here's a question for debate: Guest speaker at an awards ceremony, class graduation, etc--should the invited speaker be able to mention his/her personal faith? For example, if they say "Back when I was at X school and struggling, I was able to find that praying Y prayer helped me remain calm and focused..." Can't say it bothers me at all. Just as I can't say it would bother me for a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or Wiccan to give the invocation. If your faith is so weak that it can't stand up to someone's expression of a different faith, you probably need to re-examine your own beliefs, not the legal jargon governing the work of chaplains. It's not that hard to stand quietly while someone offers a sincere prayer that THEY believe will help the person they are praying for. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 It's not that hard to stand quietly while someone offers a sincere prayer that THEY believe will help the person they are praying for. Agree. People need to get over it; by in large we are a Christian country, just like Thailand is a Buddhist country. This doesn't mean there aren't other religions allowed or the "main" religion is the right answer for everyone. It's just simply the predominant choice. I don't go to Thailand and immediately start bitching about a monk praying in public or demanding they melt down statues in public places because it makes me feel uncomfortable. If you can't just politely stand there and not take part, then you're an idiot and need to get over yourself. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HU&W Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 It's always seemed odd to me as well that religious prayers are routinely given at official functions under the jurisdiction of the federal government. If you don't think it's weird, try to imagine a change of command with a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or Jewish invocation. I could see that not going over too well. It went over just fine last time I saw it happen. There are Muslim and Jewish chaplains. They pray according to their belief system. Allowing people their freedom of religion in a situation where you invite them to express their beliefs isn't weird at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hispeed7721 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Agree. People need to get over it; by in large we are a Christian country, just like Thailand is a Buddhist country. This doesn't mean there aren't other religions allowed or the "main" religion is the right answer for everyone. It's just simply the predominant choice. I don't go to Thailand and immediately start bitching about a monk praying in public or demanding they melt down statues in public places because it makes me feel uncomfortable. If you can't just politely stand there and not take part, then you're an idiot and need to get over yourself. Big 2. The problem is, as a society, we've started a downward spiral into the realm of everyone being whiney, politically correct and getting offended at anything they don't agree with. I'm absolutely sick and tired of hearing how everything offends someone so were no longer allowed to do/say/think it. Get the fvck over it and move on. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim richalds Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 The fact that people get so hot and bothered by chaplain invocations but didn't raise an eyebrow when maj nadal Hassan signed all of his letters "Allah Akbar" is pretty telling about our ridiculous PC military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnimalMother Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 The fact that people get so hot and bothered by chaplain invocations but didn't raise an eyebrow when maj nadal Hassan signed all of his letters "Allah Akbar" is pretty telling about our ridiculous PC military. Honestly, that's really not all that different from all the people who sign their emails "have a blessed day," or something similar. "Allah Akbar," is not a terrorist rallying cry. But, I agree, the level of "PC awareness" in the military is off the deep end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnimalMother Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Agree. People need to get over it; by in large we are a Christian country, just like Thailand is a Buddhist country. This doesn't mean there aren't other religions allowed or the "main" religion is the right answer for everyone. It's just simply the predominant choice. I don't go to Thailand and immediately start bitching about a monk praying in public or demanding they melt down statues in public places because it makes me feel uncomfortable. If you can't just politely stand there and not take part, then you're an idiot and need to get over yourself. I hear this a lot, and while I agree with it in some respects, I think you have to be a little careful. Our founding fathers were indeed Christian, and they certainly invoked many of the teachings of that religion. However, they did not do so in an attempt to proselytize. Honestly I think they realized that at a very basic level, many religions are very similar and they wanted to protect the ability of people to follow a religion of their choice in order to lead a moral life without the government having the ability to dictate what religion that would be, or even worse, what constitutes morality in the first place. When exercised properly, religion is a vastly preferable guiding institution than the dictums of big government. Much of this is nearly moot however, as we have strayed very far indeed from the vision of our founding fathers. I highly recommend the book "The 5000 Year Leap," if you haven't read it, absolutely fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 My thoughts exactly, ...except about the religious people. It's simple: Keep the church and state separate like you're supposed to and you don't get these problems. Show me in the constitution where this is written again? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyinGrunt Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Guys, can we just take the religion stuff to another thread? Let's get back to sport bitching about nonexistent leadership, broke planes, and acquisition debacles. And CBTs. And . . . And . . . 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachAT802 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I don't want to live in a theocracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I don't want to live in a theocracy. This is what I constantly tell people at my local church who pray for more Christians in government, and for more "Christian" policies from lawmakers...Seems to me many of us have spent over a decade fighting against a group of people who thought their religious ideas should form the basis of their government. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I get it, I've read it AND I agree with you. Some people just hate religion, some people understand our laws. Just seeing where you were coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PropWash Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I get it, I've read it AND I agree with you. Some people just hate religion, some people understand our laws. Just seeing where you were coming from. So your idea of honest debate is to troll the conversation with positions you know to be inaccurate? Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 The constitution does not require that people check their religion at the door. It does require, however, that the government establish no religion, nor provide religious test for office. This is to protect religion and its free practice, not necessarily allow only secularists to serve in government. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slackline Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Wrong thread for this dead horse conversation... Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) My point is above. Edited April 3, 2014 by matmacwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSCguy Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 To throw in something that's not religious: The AF places way too much emphasis on higher education. It used to be like this: enlisted: high school graduate, line officer: bachelors, professional/medical officer: advanced degree. Now it's advanced degrees pushed across the board. When enlisted members have the same or more education than officers what the hell kind of environment is this supposed to foster? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panchbarnes Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) No high paying civilian business cares about an associate degree (CCAF). If the E-9s really care about their folks, they would steer them towards a bachelors degree. But nope, it's about making sure people check the boxes to indicate "desire and potential." Edited April 10, 2014 by PanchBarnes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB Stacker Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 No high paying civilian business cares about an associate degree (CCAF). If the E-9s really care about their folks, they would steer them towards a bachelors degree. But nope, it's about making sure people check the boxes to indicate "desire and potential." To be fair, that's less about an enlisted culture issue and more about the fact that by AFI (signed by a three-star) you are prohibited from getting SR without CCAF complete. I agree that CCAF is stupid but I think the fire is a bit misplaced if we're directing it solely at org level SNCOs...fact of the matter is until the AFI changes you ain't getting promoted past MSgt without your CCAF, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panchbarnes Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I didn't know about the AFI requirement. Thanks for the education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 No high paying civilian business cares about an associate degree (CCAF). If the E-9s really care about their folks, they would steer them towards a bachelors degree. But nope, it's about making sure people check the boxes to indicate "desire and potential." Never been enlisted, so correct me if I'm wrong...but isn't CCAF more "job related training" than most degree programs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialD Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) Never been enlisted, so correct me if I'm wrong...but isn't CCAF more "job related training" than most degree programs? Yes. I got college credit for basic/tech school/course 1 (SSgt test for the guard) and 5 or 7 level. After I received my bachelors, I transferred my basic electives into the CCAF and a A.A.S. in aircraft maintenance showed up a year later while I was in UPT. Edited April 10, 2014 by SocialD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSCguy Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 No high paying civilian business cares about your masters in underwater basket weaving from TUI either. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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