Boss, I quit...

[scoobs]

Honest question here, is it worth staying and hoping things will change for the better? Or getting out and flying in a guard/ reserve unit part time and looking for a job? Are most people seperating already employed when they transition to the civilian side?

[SuperWSO]

Honest question here, is it worth staying and hoping things will change for the better? Or getting out and flying in a guard/ reserve unit part time and looking for a job? Are most people seperating already employed when they transition to the civilian side?

Somebody has to stay in. As for having a job, you should at least have something that looks pretty solid before you pull the handles. I've seen cases and others on this forum have stories of guys who got out thinking that a job would magically appear (airlines, Reserves, start a business...) and it didn't.

Look around and get smart on your options before you start your separation paperwork.

[ClearedHot]

To All,

See email I received below. Marshall Michel Col, USAF (Ret.) is now a historian in USAFE. Please correspond with him at marshall.michel@gmail.com if you have any input that can help him.

From: marshall.michel@gmail.com

Sent: 7/22/2011 11:56:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time

Subj: Morale patches, t-shirts, etc.

Hi Hale, as you may or may not know, the AF is having a huge problem hanging on the fighter pilots (stop me if you've heard this before...). There was a new "Dear Boss" letter and General Walsh sent it out to for all the USAFE fighter pilots and others to comment on, then has been going out to the fighter wings to talk about it.

At exactly the same time, the AF has come out with a new reg that bans morale (Friday) patches, colored squadron t-shirts, etc.

Needless to say, that has the bro screaming and makes Walsh look like a hypocrite, so I have been asked to run down the history of morale/Friday patches, t-shirts, etc. for our lower leaders to have a run at changing the reg in the name of heritage.

My problem is they came in after I stopped flying -- can you help by shooting this out to all and sundry? My suspicion is it came in mid-80ish, and probably started in USAFE, but that is only a hunch. Also, it would be great -- necessary, probably -- to have pictures with names, dates and bases of folks wearing the patches and shirts, and especially if they went on to higher rank (hint...)

Can you help with this? If the 52 FW is any indicator, they are really loosing a lot of good pilots for stupid, unnecessary reasons...

Thanks, Marshall

Edited July 28, 2011 by ClearedHot

[matmacwc]

CH, you rock for getting this done. I'm in the middle of a separation PCS (yeah, for all the reasons everyone bitches about) and I can't wait to respond. I just can't for a few days, hope the bro's can get this done. Here is to the ANG!! Where we will where tan shirts on friday as well.....

[Guest IGB]

To All,

See email I received below. Marshall Michel Col, USAF (Ret.) is now a historian in USAFE. Please correspond with him at marshall.michel@gmail.com if you have any input that can help him.

Doc Michel is the real deal. Great dude. The current AF/CV often frequented his house parties when he was 3 AF/CC...

Here are links to two of his books for sale on Amazon:

The Eleven Days of Christmas: America's Last Vietnam Battle

Clashes: Air Combat over North Vietnam, 1965-1972

[PolyestherDuck]

To All,

See email I received below. Marshall Michel Col, USAF (Ret.) is now a historian in USAFE. Please correspond with him at marshall.michel@gmail.com if you have any input that can help him.

From: marshall.michel@gmail.com

Sent: 7/22/2011 11:56:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time

Subj: Morale patches, t-shirts, etc.

Hi Hale, as you may or may not know, the AF is having a huge problem hanging on the fighter pilots (stop me if you've heard this before...). There was a new "Dear Boss" letter and General Walsh sent it out to for all the USAFE fighter pilots and others to comment on, then has been going out to the fighter wings to talk about it.

At exactly the same time, the AF has come out with a new reg that bans morale (Friday) patches, colored squadron t-shirts, etc.

Needless to say, that has the bro screaming and makes Walsh look like a hypocrite, so I have been asked to run down the history of morale/Friday patches, t-shirts, etc. for our lower leaders to have a run at changing the reg in the name of heritage.

My problem is they came in after I stopped flying -- can you help by shooting this out to all and sundry? My suspicion is it came in mid-80ish, and probably started in USAFE, but that is only a hunch. Also, it would be great -- necessary, probably -- to have pictures with names, dates and bases of folks wearing the patches and shirts, and especially if they went on to higher rank (hint...)

Can you help with this? If the 52 FW is any indicator, they are really loosing a lot of good pilots for stupid, unnecessary reasons...

Thanks, Marshall

Oh dear Jesus, repealing the tab/morale patch and t-shirt rules would completely piss the E-9 + 1st Sgts community off!

[HossHarris]

Oh dear Jesus, repealing the tab/morale patch and t-shirt rules would completely piss the E-9 + 1st Sgts community off!

FUCK EM!

[guineapigfury]

Oh dear Jesus, repealing the tab/morale patch and t-shirt rules would completely piss the E-9 + 1st Sgts community off!

I hate to ever say anything bad about the enlisted corps, but someone needs to put these clowns in their place. O-1 > E-9 for a reason. I think the Air Force would be much better off if we just payed sergeants more, but stopped the payscale at E-7.

[MKopack]

I hate to ever say anything bad about the enlisted corps, but someone needs to put these clowns in their place.

Hell, I was a member of the enlisted corps, and I agree with you. Was never closer to being a pilot or aircrew than kicking chocks, but we've lost so much heritage due to self-inflicted political correctness as an Air Force, that perhaps this is just a bit of an opportunity to push back a little, so I'm in. I've lucked into a pretty good group of friends, who are way above my station, that flew between the 60's and the 90's that I've forwarded the Colonel's message to. Hopefully he'll be able to put together a package that will, if nothing else, send a message that gets heard.

[SocialD]

Here is to the ANG!! Where we will where tan shirts on friday as well.....

Hah! I wouldn't throw your Friday (err Thursday, depending on your squadrons work week) shirts away just yet! These adjustments take time in the ANG. Hell, I have yet to even see a tan shirt.

[Guest Crew Report]

I hate to ever say anything bad about the enlisted corps, but someone needs to put these clowns in their place. O-1 > E-9 for a reason. I think the Air Force would be much better off if we just payed sergeants more, but stopped the payscale at E-7.

I think Rated Officers should act like Officers all the time, instead of whenever it benefits them. I agree with what you're saying, however you can point the finger right at yourself and upper level Commanders who allow Enlisted personnel to get away disrespect.

[Guest]

I think Rated Officers should act like Officers all the time, instead of whenever it benefits them. I agree with what you're saying, however you can point the finger right at yourself and upper level Commanders who allow Enlisted personnel to get away disrespect.

Really?

Do you really think we should expect the rated officers to swap roles with the fucking shoe clerks and run around making on the spot corrections to enlisted troops on base because that's what acting like an officer is all about?

That's what I always thought/counted on NCOs for, and I mean that in a really good way.

Rated officers are technical experts, not the fucking t-shirt police.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Rainman A-10

[Spur38]

INDEED!

Where Have All The Fighter Pilots Gone?

We used to go to the Officers Club or NCO Club Stag Bar on Friday afternoons to drink, smoke and swap lies with our comrades. Think about this when you read the rest of the letter below. What happened to our Air Force (or Military)?

Drinking then became frowned on. Smoking caused cancer and could "harm you." Stag bars became seen as 'sexist'. Gradually, our men quit patronizing their clubs because what happened in the club became fodder for a performance report. It was the same thing at the Airman's Club and the NCO and/or Top 3 clubs.

Now we don't have separate clubs for the ranks.

Instead we have something called All Ranks Clubs/community clubs. They're open to men and women of all ranks....from airman basic to general officer. Still, no one is there. Gee, I wonder why.

The latest brilliant thought out of Washington is that the operators ("pilots?") flying remote aircraft in combat areas from their duty station in Nevada or Arizona should draw the same combat pay as those real world pilots actually on board a plane in a hostile environment. More politically correct logic? They say that remote vehicle operators are subject to the same stress levels as the combat pilot actually flying in combat. ----- REALLY!!!???

Now that I've primed you a little, read on.

There are many who will agree with these sentiments, but they apply to more than just fighter pilots. Unfortunately, the ones with the guts to speak up or push for what they believe in are beaten down by the "system."

Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in the following text - supposedly, Secretary Gates has a force beating the bushes to learn who wrote this....

Where Have All The Fighter Pilots Gone?

Good Question.

Here is a rant from a retired fighter pilot that is worth reading:

It is rumored that our current Secretary of Defense recently asked the question, "Where are all the dynamic leaders of the past?" I can only assume, if that is true, that he was referring to Robin Olds, Jimmy Doolittle, Patton, Ike, Boyington, Nimitz, etc.? Well, I've got the answer:

They were fired before they made major!

Our nation doesn't want those kinds of leaders anymore. Squadron commanders don't run squadrons and wing commanders don't run wings. They are managed by higher ranking dildos with other esoteric goals in mind.

Can you imagine someone today looking for a LEADER to execute that Doolittle Raid and suggesting that it be given to a dare-devil boozer - his only attributes: he had the respect of his men, an awesome ability to fly, and the organizational skills to put it all together? If someone told me there was a chance in hell of selecting that man today, I would tell them they were either a liar or dumber than shit.

I find it ironic that the Air Force put BG Robin Olds on the cover of the company rag last month. While it made me extremely proud to see his face, he wouldn't make it across any base in America (or overseas) without ten enlisted folks telling him to zip up his flight suit and shave his mustache off.

I have a feeling that his response would be predictable and for that crime he would probably get a trip home and an Article 15. We have lost the war on rugged individualism and that, unfortunately, is what fighter pilots want to follow; not because they have to but because they respect leaders of that ilk. We've all run across that leader that made us proud to follow him because you wanted to be like him and make a difference. The individual who you would drag your testicles through glass for rather than disappoint him.

We better wake the hell up! We're asking our young men and women to go to really shitty places; some with unbearable climates, never have a drink, have little or no contact with the opposite sex, not look at magazines of a suggestive nature of any type, and adhere to ridiculous regs that require you to tuck your shirt into your PT uniform on the way to the porta-shitter at night in a dust storm because it's a uniform.

These people we're sending to combat are some of the brightest I've met but they are looking for a little sanity, which they will only find on the outside if we don't get a friggin' clue. You can't continue asking people to live for months or years at a time acting like nuns and priests. Hell, even they get to have a beer.

Who are we afraid of offending? The guys that already hate us enough to strap C-4 to their own bodies and walk into a crowd of us? Think about it.

I'm extremely proud of our young men and women who continue to serve. I'm also very in tune with what they are considering for the future and I've got news for whoever sits in the White House, Congress, and our so-called military leaders. Much talent has and will continue to hemorrhage from our services, because wanna-be warriors are tired of fighting on two fronts - - one with our enemies, another against our lack of common sense.

I don't approve of political jokes--I've seen too many of them get elected."

[Guest Crew Report]

Really?

Do you really think we should expect the rated officers to swap roles with the ing shoe clerks and run around making on the spot corrections to enlisted troops on base because that's what acting like an officer is all about?

That's what I always thought/counted on NCOs for, and I mean that in a really good way.

Rated officers are technical experts, not the ing t-shirt police.

You can toss the "Technical Expert" term Old Man, shoulda/coulda/woulda been a Warrant. Flyers get pissy with queep shit done or said by Shoes, but will rarely do or act against a disrespectful Enlisted person for fear of getting talked to by a higher ranking Shoe O. I expect Officers period to act like Officers and lead. Confused? Go talk to the USMC, their O's seem understand that ideology, even their flyers.

NCO's have better things to do (I.e. making the military run) instead of making uniform corrections you're too to make yourself.

[jcollins]

You can toss the "Technical Expert" term Old Man, shoulda/coulda/woulda been a Warrant. Flyers get pissy with queep shit done or said by Shoes, but will rarely do or act against a disrespectful Enlisted person for fear of getting talked to by a higher ranking Shoe O. I expect Officers period to act like Officers and lead. Confused? Go talk to the USMC, their O's seem understand that ideology, even their flyers.

NCO's have better things to do (I.e. making the military run) instead of making uniform corrections you're too ###### to make yourself.

Slilock, if you were to actually spend some time around the USMC (instead of coming on here and running your mouth about things you know nothing about), you would know that NCOs in that service police their own, just like Rainman is saying. There should be no need for officers to get involved.

[Guest Crew Report]

Slilock, if you were to actually spend some time around the USMC (instead of coming on here and running your mouth about things you know nothing about), you would know that NCOs in that service police their own.

[GoAround]

I can imagine what you look like...Eminem, but tinier.

[brickhistory]

That's what I always thought/counted on NCOs for, and I mean that in a really good way.

2. But the trend of letting SrA/SSgt Snuffy be a uniform nazi has developed, so there's a failure developing among the NCOs. Who is supposed to fix it?

Rated officers are technical experts, not the fucking t-shirt police.

Same technical expert guy/gal who is now the WG/CC and letting the E-9 run wild?

At some point, the "technician" has to be the "officer."

[Shiner]

Same technical expert guy/gal who is now the WG/CC and letting the E-9 run wild?

Yes. I sat in on a brief the other day where the WG/CCC said that "good leadership is being a good example to follow...that starts with having your sleeves rolled down. If they aren't, A1C Snuffy will publicly correct you." This was in front of the WG/CC, who actually allowed that shit to be said. I must be ######ing crazy to think that issues like flying ops and deployments should be key topics at a CC call.

[ClearedHot]

If they aren't, A1C Snuffy will publicly correct you."

NO, he won't.

[Guest]

Slilock, if you were to actually spend some time around the USMC (instead of coming on here and running your mouth about things you know nothing about), you would know that NCOs in that service police their own, just like Rainman is saying. There should be no need for officers to get involved.

Shack.

[herkbum]

The Marines Security Detachment at the Embassy where I used to work definitely policed themselves. They were true professionals and the AF NCO corps should emulate them.

[Guest]

You can toss the "Technical Expert" term Old Man, shoulda/coulda/woulda been a Warrant.

You don't know me, which is cool, but you don't know how wrong you are on this one.

Flyers get pissy with queep shit done or said by Shoes, but will rarely do or act against a disrespectful Enlisted person for fear of getting talked to by a higher ranking Shoe O.

A sweeping generalization which does not apply to every pilot. I have given advice to young guys several times on this...ignore that person. It is on the Squadron and Operations Group CCs to handle the bullshit calls from the eaters of paste/kickers of box/cobblers of shoe.

I expect Officers period to act like Officers and lead. Confused?

No, I'm not confused. In fact, acting like an officer means making expectations clear to the NCOs that they need to police their guys wrt respectful behavior and let them know the same will be done from him to the officers. Respect does not equal sleeves rolled down. Respect means respect and recognition of the hard work Amn Snuffy does everyday bending wrenches and building bombs.

Go talk to the USMC, their O's seem understand that ideology, even their flyers.

Wait, what? You're fucked up.

I've spent plenty of time with Marines and I have never once seen a pilot nit pick an enlisted troop about a uniform issue. I have seen their NCOs rip the young pups a new asshole, many times. I have not seen an enlisted person get in the grill of an officer. Ever. Candor, yes. Disrespect, never.

NCO's have better things to do (I.e. making the military run) instead of making uniform corrections you're too pussy to make yourself.

Seriously? Is that how you really feel? I'm a pussy? C'mon man.

FWIW, I wasn't talking about policing/enforcing uniform standards. I was talking about the NCOs giving the Amn the perspective on stupid shit like uniform issues and teaching them to sort and prioritize the bullshit so that the important work gets done and the mission gets accomplished. That is what NCOs are supposed to do, IMHBAO.

[backseatdriver]

"Culture of correcting standards"

"Proper Airmanship is correcting each other about things such as "your sideburns are too long," "take your sunglasses off the top of your head," "tuck your PT shirt in," "why didn't you pay proper respect to the flag," and so on...."

Ugh...

Edited August 4, 2011 by backseatdriver

[Champ Kind]

Dear God.... They are turning "airmanship", the basic quality in all flyers, into just another shoe clerk buzzword.

I can see it now:

EP: Good checkride but I'm going to have to unsat you for airmanship.

Examinee: ......?

EP: Yeah I noticed you didn't correct the barely out of reg sideburns on that MX troop as we were stepping. Airmanship is so much more than just flying a good plane. Blah blah blah professionalism warrioir ethos.