ElLoco Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Copy, could not hack UPT, punched out under guise of marital stress. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewskis Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Couldn't hack it? Puss'd out? GMAFB. I have not complained about my decision to leave UPT, ever. I asked my leadership for advice and guidance, and the consensus was that "making it work" between two married pilots that are not in the same year group or airframe is incredibly difficult. While people do it successfully, it frequently ends badly. Flying in the Air Force wasn't that important to me, it was more important to me to serve as an officer first and be stationed with my wife. I was fortunate in that I was assigned to a career field that I find very rewarding, but had I not been, it would have been because I chose to leave UPT, and that was a pill I was willing to swallow. There is absolutely nothing wrong with pilots (or anyone else) deciding to get out of the Air Force. I have never said I had anything against pilots choosing to leave; and I hope those that do find a better life in another career. What I am trying to convey is that AF pilots are some of the best paid and best taken care of service members in the entire DoD, so the complaining seems a lot like Saudi princes at UPT complaining about having to park their M3s with the rest of the studs, whereas in Saudi Arabia, they drive a Maserati, and they get to park wherever they want. I hope that BODN represents the vocal minority on this issue and these discussions don't happen in front of the maintainers or AFE folks you guys work with. We are clearly not going to find common ground here, so we'll just have to go with I'm right on this one, trust me. I'm not necessarily going for a pile on here, but whether you like it or not, support types have a stigma. At my base, when I roll in at 0600-0630, the MSG, Med Group and other support units have completely empty parking lots. When I leave at 1800-1830, those parking lots are also empty. Our Finance shop closes up at 1630, regardless if you are waiting in line or not. We have no flight docs on duty after 1630 usually. We asked if a doc would come in if we had a in flight physi after 1630, and were told to basically pound sand. I'm not accusing you of being one of those 'types' and the fact that you visit this forum makes me think you aren't. But there are more bad examples than good ones these days, at least in my world. The primary mission of my base is flying training. Yet, the support squadrons are far better manned than the ops squadrons right now, but there seems to be zero desire in the support units to help us either accomplish the primary mission of our wing or assist those that do. I wound venture to guess my example isn't unique or special, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperStud Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 The AF is a comfortable place for those mediocre types that don't have the skills or work ethic to succeed in truly competitive workplaces - you know, the types that punch out of difficult training. Those (you) are not the one with the options I was talking about on the outside. Enjoy your time-based promotions and keep scoffing those who finished what you couldn't. You fit right in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17D_guy Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) Amn (Pilot) exits USAF due to QOL concerns - ball slathering, high-fives with drinks and bro-fists Amn (non-Pilot) exits UPT due to QOL concerns - non-hack homo who couldn't cut it in any AFSC/Service Did I get it right? If I have to listen to another Ops person tell me about how hard they work, and how soft us "support" types are and how easy we have it with our "8 hour" days I might actually flick my eyes in a circular direction. Yea, you work 18 hr days, every day (I've been told this). No time in the Sq bar, ever. No naming ceremonies. No change of command parties. No sweet deal TDY's to air shows at Hurlburt or Pensacola or.. you know.. flying in a god damn magical steel tube that weighs thousands of pounds. Meanwhile. I send my Amn taskers about getting some Bullet Background Papers for the new Wing King, figure out how to explain to Ops types the newest cyber-directive that's come down to stop the stupid things they were doing. Another rape. Another DUI. Another Amn who's... probably going to be an active shooter. Data call on hours spent responding to data calls. Ops would like 15 tablets set up in 2 days for <insert DV visit here>. Does anyone here think Missilers had it soft and were a bunch of pussy crybabies? The jobs are different, they require different skills, mindsets and abilities. Just because you don't value it, doesn't mean it's not of value. Like I said in my other post, I'm in deep w/ the Ops Group at my base because that's the mission. I execute the mission I'm given - making sure you fly, fly well, and more importantly - land well. But don't fucking tell me, or GraveDigger, you don't have just as many fuckup, non-hack, wastes of space who contribute 0 to the mission as the MSG side. Don't tell me IFS, UPT, IQT and MQT didn't let some through just because they were on the line and the paperwork to kick them was just a little too difficult to do that day. Don't tell me you have a co-pilot that worries you, or a bag-wearing exec that constantly fucks up your paperwork, or schedulers that'll screw you. In fact, I would argue your pieces of shit are of even greater detriment since peoples lives are on the line. You have your guys that don't show up for days in a row, don't train, do unsafe shit, etc. One of my guys fucks up - no NIPR. One of your guys fucks up - lifetime benefits to some widows and kids with a folded flag to display. Don't tell me the MSG is full of slacker Amn who don't show up until 8, give poor service (because they enjoy pissing people off), and cut out early for "training days" just to make the CAF/MAF dudes pissed. I had to go to down Fridays in the CFP where I'm at. Why? We needed the time for training. Not CBT's, not SABC, fucking skill training. Because the AF separated all the experience (VSP/RIF/PT). Sounds like I'm writing about the same things you guys bitch about with the full-qual IP's getting bounced and keeping the party planner, doesn't it. Most of you fly. Super cool gig! It's awesome. I still run to the window to watch the flight-line. But don't tell me we're not working hard to get that magical vehicle floating, holding up the worst piece of shit you can find while you compare them to the Patch-wearing full-up IP. Edited April 8, 2015 by 17D_guy 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloDude Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I think we have emotionally upset the 'everyone should get a trophy' crowd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 There's a reason why they're called the Mission Supression Group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Amn (Pilot) exits USAF due to QOL concerns - ball slathering, high-fives with drinks and bro-fists Amn (non-Pilot) exits UPT due to QOL concerns - non-hack homo who couldn't cut it in any AFSC/Service Did I get it right? Nope. Big difference between someone who finished what they started, did their time, earned their keep, and decided to seek opportunities elsewhere and someone who couldn't hack shit in the first place. As for the rest of your words.... noted, with points of agreement. Shit sucks everywhere, got it. The problem is this culture the Air Force has actively been promoting in the recent past that has fed the line of horseshit that every AFSC is created equal, that we're all warfighters, and are all the tip of the spear. As for your gripes about having to close for training and other blah blah ballwash-- there's one key difference between pilots and most other AFSCs. Our primary job lately hasn't been to fly airplanes. That is pretty much a hobby or some kind of guilty pleasure that we occasionally get to partake in, usually at the expense of our ability to do our real jobs. And when I say "real jobs" I am referring, of course, to EVERYONE ELSE'S DAMN JOB. We have more finance officers by trade in our flying squadron than the comptroller squadron. More comm guys than the comm squadron, more personnellists... you get the point. When a support type goes to work, they do the job they were hired and trained for (somewhere between showing up at ~0800, Sq PT, 2 hour lunch, and 1615 departure). 90% of the reason I and most of my colleagues work 12+ hours on a regular basis is because of all of the other ancillary bullshit we have to do because "support" AFSCs can't do their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 So in dumb pilot speak, is this to say at least 5th gen should prioritize more weight of training effort to the "virtual" side in order to take advantage of full system capes? I'm well aware of all the "we can't go full up" limfacs, but no sim will ever replace the training available in live fly, even if there's some "trick fucking the system" that has to be done. Sims are great training tools, but they belong in the 10-20% max category when it comes to training allocation. Still have to be able to fly the $100M airplane and and land it, fly formation and deal with EPs. I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravedigger Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Copy, could not hack UPT, punched out under guise of marital stress. I punched before phase 1, EABOD. I decided to free up my class seat for another stud instead of waste people's time and money staying when I knew I was going to leave. The AF is a comfortable place for those mediocre types that don't have the skills or work ethic to succeed in truly competitive workplaces - you know, the types that punch out of difficult training. Those (you) are not the one with the options I was talking about on the outside. Enjoy your time-based promotions and keep scoffing those who finished what you couldn't. You fit right in. You are exactly right in the first sentence. Your second sentence is a baseless cheap shot, but your holiness has been called into question, so I can understand why you feel the need to attack. I'm not all that familiar with "support" units, as I've never been in anything other than an ops squadron in an ops group, but I'm also not part of the flying world, so to everyone with wings I'm support. It's just too difficult to understand ops outside of flying. I get it. Thanks for the support 17D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busdriver Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 Oh for fucks sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Man Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Where's Finance Guy been? That guy's the tits. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCan Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I think we've been played...and played well. I'm thinking Gravedigger is a crusty ole' fighter pilot who is getting a kick out of this shit. I mean, no way a dude quits pilot training because of his or his old ladies QoL requirements, becomes a satellite officer, then gets on a website called "flying squadron forums by baseops.net", then calls out those who finish an entire flying stint "a bunch of ing whiners". I've met some some characters in my time, but no one with the brass balls and/or total lack of SA to make themselves look so completely ridiculous. So here's to you GDigger...you got us good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperStud Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Dude I pointed out some miscalculations by management that have led to retention probs and offered an argument as to where they misstepped. I never called out non-flyers. I simply said that leadership is not doing enough to keep those of us with lots of options to stay in. You called us a bunch of whiners. GFY. I don't care how or why, but you didn't complete training and now have flight suit envy like countless other light switch dicked people in the AF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raimius Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 17D If the AF didn't allow me to occasionally fly their aircraft and all I had was AF office work, I might be a civilian by now. There is obviously a lot of disconnect between parts of the AF. It's sad and almost funny when another agency/squadron assumes they can just ask for a flying squadron to do something with 18hrs notice, not knowing it takes WG/CC or MAJCOM level approvals to do said thing. I'm sure you have seen similar things. It tends to leave a poor impression when people try to get stuff done, but the customer service window at whatever agency they are dealing with is only open when they cannot go, due to flying, crew rest, etc. It seems non-sensical to take 2-3 weeks to get 30 minutes of work done, because the only people who can submit your documents or conduct an appointment are never around when you are not otherwise committed. I realize that many support agencies are undermanned, and many of our processes are so convoluted that we probably generate 75% of our own misery, but that doesn't help the frustration. That said, the subject matter expert for travel vouchers should be the SrA/SSgt in finance, not the C-17 IP. In every support squadron/agency I've dealt with, there are always at least 1 or 2 people who are clearly experts at their jobs. I certainly appreciate them, as they get things done right, even when the customer (me) has little to no idea what's going on. The AF needs to figure out how to retain and promote them! ____________________ I think we've been played...and played well. I'm thinking Gravedigger is a crusty ole' fighter pilot who is getting a kick out of this shit. I mean, no way a dude quits pilot training because of his or his old ladies QoL requirements, becomes a satellite officer, then gets on a website called "flying squadron forums by baseops.net", then calls out those who finish an entire flying stint "a bunch of ######ing whiners". I've met some some characters in my time, but no one with the brass balls and/or total lack of SA to make themselves look so completely ridiculous. So here's to you GDigger...you got us good. Do you even internet, brah? That would be nothing compared to the average CNN/Youtube comments section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dupe Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) In the investment world, there's the idea of the risk vs return frontier. http://www.youngresearch.com/authors/ejsmith/risk-and-reward-an-efficient-frontier/ In life, there's the bullshit vs benefits frontier. The AF keeps talking about benefits, but leaves the idea of the cost of those benefits (the bullshit) off the table. It's not that the airlines pay more... It's that a low six figure salary for working 12 days a month is a compelling proposition to many. This rough arguement is the same in many areas: a shit hot cyber warrior may ask "Why am I working 14-16 hour days to answer data calls? I could just found my own start-up." To Gen Welsh's Staff: I know you are reading this. How the AF distributes the bullshit in a BCA environment will be linked to retention in future years. Edited April 8, 2015 by Dupe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 It's a simple equation... 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Why does anybody do non-flying stuff past, say, 4:30 in the afternoon? The only work I do "after hours" is 100% mission related--usually trying to figure out why my mission is all jacked up while I'm trying to crew rest somewhere. Sorry, but that other queepy b.s. can wait till tomorrow. Nobody gets paid for their overtime in this business. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Why does anybody do non-flying stuff past, say, 4:30 in the afternoon? The only work I do "after hours" is 100% mission related--usually trying to figure out why my mission is all jacked up while I'm trying to crew rest somewhere. Sorry, but that other queepy b.s. can wait till tomorrow. Nobody gets paid for their overtime in this business. Actually, I do. On another note, Welsh was at my base a few weeks ago and did mention online forums and their impact a couple of times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloDude Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Actually, I do. On another note, Welsh was at my base a few weeks ago and did mention online forums and their impact a couple of times. He must have been referring to BQZip's mom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 He must have been referring to BQZip's mom... Every time she falls over, she has a big impact. Sinkholes everywhere nowadays, yo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger41 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 You guys are seriously giving the dude shit because he made a decision that was the best for his family? I personally can't imagine doing something other than flying but I can respect another persons (never mind fellow AF officer) decision based on the circumstances. I'm sure you've all said it/heard it but the Air Force will be there when your career is over, your family might not be. And enough with the woe is me crap about support agencies. Learn to manage your time and delegate. Some of them suck complete ass, I agree. Notch appropriately. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 It's a simple equation...simple equation.jpg Oh my God...Zero just came out of the woodwork??? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperStud Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 You guys are seriously giving the dude shit because he made a decision that was the best for his family? Nope. I did the same thing, which is why I wear a Guard patch now. Some good sport-bitching was going on here and he busts in the door and calls a bunch of pilots whiny bitches from his pulpit, citing vast deployment experience with other services and how we are the biggest Sallies he's ever met. I taught UPT for a few years and there was one thing in common with every single SIE - their place/rank in the class. Hard-charging and bright dudes tend to worry less about their future and try to make it happen, thinking that one of them will punch (chicks get a freebie if preggo) when the time comes. Newsflash, people are not here just to whine. I care a lot about the AF, especially because I continue to serve full-time. I got the assignments I wanted, loved flying/traveling and met some great bros. I wanted to find a reason to convince myself to stay - it just wasn't there. We see big problems ahead in our particular area of expertise and we discuss (aka pontificate, sport bitch, throw spears). I wouldn't frequent this board if I didn't care. If you can't fence into the conversation other than to call a bunch of people, all who know the ups/downs of operational flying better than you, a group of whiners - then go surf the Chive. We are here because we are like-minded individuals that give a shit. Leave the talking to adults. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dupe Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 It's a simple equation...simple equation.jpg Every time I think I'm brilliant, I am humbled by others.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 It's a simple equation... simple equation.jpg I miss your old eDodo stuff, Zero. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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