Strike Eagles and BFM/ACM

[Timbonez]

Yeah, the pilots helmet makes it hard to see shit off the nose.

ZING! Well played.

[Toro]

WTF, were you guys fighting B-Coursers? Congratulations, your wingman beat someone with 69 hours in the jet.

Not unless Spang has an FTU (that happened at Lakenheath).

Anyway, you completely missed the point I was making. It wasn't about clubbing baby seals and nowhere in there was I bragging. The point to be made was about underestimating or not understanding the other aircraft's capabilities and/or overestimating your own.

[F16Deuce]

Not unless Spang has an FTU (that happened at Lakenheath).

Anyway, you completely missed the point I was making. It wasn't about clubbing baby seals and nowhere in there was I bragging. The point to be made was about underestimating or not understanding the other aircraft's capabilities and/or overestimating your own.

Touche

[Guest]

Nellis/FWIC/Gomer DACT was always fun. The bros were always cool, everyone knew how to fly their jets and training rules were advisory in nature (JK). Good learning, zero dick measuring and very fun. Nothing better than a fini flt with jets from every division split into teams and ultimately breaking down into multiple "8 or fewer" every man for himself furballs anchored over the Dog Lady. In the end, it was fun because the pilots were good.

As for CAS, all I can say is we need all players. CAS to an A-10 guy looks nothing like CAS to everyone else and that's the main rub, in spite of common JCAS TTPs.

The real answer is for the A-10 guys to be in a position to help everyone else act as a force multiplier.

Most A-10 guys know how to do CAS well with their own flight and sometimes with other A-10s. However, few really know much about what is going on in the cockpits of the other jets that are also pitching into the fight (as fragged or retasked...whatever).

That's a problem.

You can bitch all day about how shitty someone is or you can work your ass off to figure out how to get their ordnance on targets quickly without slowing your own flight down. That often means you give them the targets you have ready and were about to attack or are in the process of attacking (which most guys consider, wrongly, as "their targets" like they own them or something) and you keep moving to develop more while the other jets are attacking and you are guiding their weapons, marking their targets and or passing them good coordinates all while doing CDA, BDA and deconflicting weapons, friendlies, and jets. Do that and you can call yourself the Kings of CAS. If you can't do it you are just another asset to be allocated on the ATO...no different than a B-52 or F-16.

I didn't know too many guys that can do ASC and CAS effectively and simultaneously, especially in a true TIC (which most folks have never seen) at night, in shitty wx and challenging terrain. I doubt that problem has been solved since I retired. Ultimately, it is on the A-10 community to solve or they can shut up about being "the only people good at CAS."

JMHBAO

[Tex]

To pile on to what Hoss and Rainman have said. The current AO has a long way to go when it comes to integration. The onus falls on both the air borne assets and the ASOC. With limited assets the ASOC is very hesitant to have multiple flights on scene at any given time and do not task or re-task very well. The individuals making the call often don't have the experience or knowledge to make great calls, i.e. an KC-130 driver. That aside, there are a lot of cultural differences in the strike assets, and their individual squadrons, that have been in theater. The level and quality of integration always ebbs and flows dependent upon who is out there at any given time.

Rainman, part of the problem is that we are not doing ASC, the reasons why are an entirely different thread. That forces a JTAC, often displaced, to be in the loop no matter the scenario. All around there is a very limited understanding of Coordinated Attacks, formerly MFAs. To the extent that people don't grasp the difference in Air borne OSC and the FAC(A) roles. So as Hog guys we are often left out of the TAC(A)/OSC roles because platforms and JTACS can not separate target nomination and final control from racking, stacking, and updating.

Everyone has there roles in the AO, sometimes the ASOC does a great job complementing the various strengths and more often they bone it away. But as a Hog guy, I do think it is incumbent on us to help educate ourselves and other platforms as much as we can. More often than not we are the ones who have seen the capabilities of massed and coordinated firepower not the other guys. The end service is to the guy on the ground. It doesn't matter who does the killing just so long as it is done.

We might not be the Kings of CAS as a community but I think we do it better than anyone else. Now lets prove it.

[Hacker]

Welcome back, Rainman.

[ClearedHot]

Some of the better CAS integration papers in recent years have been written by dudes that do CAS while flying left-hand turns.

If we could ALL stop measuring dicks (STS), and start working on TTP's the entire community would be much better off.

[discus]

Some of the better CAS integration papers in recent years have been written by dudes that do CAS while flying left-hand turns.

If we could ALL stop measuring dicks (STS), and start working on TTP's the entire community would be much better off.

"2".

[Vetter]

Why would you be hesitant? MFA's are not cosmic.

[Guest whatever]

Why would you be hesitant? MFA's are not cosmic.

But apparently, using the correct 3-09.3 terminology is...

[schokie]

Why would you be hesitant? MFA's are not cosmic.

I've participated in MFA on a couple occasions. One was a 4-ship strafe attack. We've all been to a range before, so between a standard container pattern and 3-09.3 there were no problems. I will caveat that with it was CAVU, simple tactical scenario on the ground, minimal to no S2A threat, and the OSC was an A-10 patch.

I haven't had the opportunity to coordinate attacks with an AC-130, only to sit high and dry while they do the Lord's work. However we did pre-coord in case something bigger than a 105 was needed.

It seems that standardizing comm and formations is useful and important.

[Guest]

disagree...

I know.

you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Some can. Become one of them.

[F16Deuce]

If we could ALL stop measuring dicks (STS), and start working on TTP's the entire community would be much better off.

Shack.

[Guest whatever]

Really? ...Then where are they and what have they all been doing this whole time? They sure haven't hooked schokie up with the gouge:

I'm not here to complain (defined as bitching without a solution) and say it's impossible to get people on board. My solution is to add an additional chapter to each 3-1 and to expand the oversimplified MFA matrix found in 3-09.3. It's then to emphasize these TTPs in more joint exercises that prepare the CAF to fight the fight (Atlantic Strike, Jaded Thunder, Green Flag). Finally, it's to implement a comprehensive and constantly updated source of after-action reports from anyone that employs these TTPs downrange so we can get the lessons learned back here and focus our training appropriately.

The CAF needs to get serious about working together to kill bad guys quicker and more effectively, but it has to start with the leadership. Fortunately for our enemies, our leadership is instead focused on reflective belts, pencil patches, promoting the O'club, Blues Monday, and Shoe Flag in correspondence.

_{**New readers to this topic beware: You might be confused by the missing sections of this thread. Some shoe clerk masquerading as an Air Force pilot has made it his business to censor massive portions of this thread in an attempt to safeguard your emotions and shield grown adults from getting their feelings hurt. Be mindful of questioning the rationale of others, particularly with a scornful tone. The resultant pick-and-choose editing process will leave you feeling like you're in communist N. Korea....or the second grade. In fact, this post will probably be deleted any minute now by those that would rather see this site resemble AFN than take the time to locate their testicles and apply a small amount of pressure to check that they're still attached and functioning properly. ...So much for thick skin. Viva la resistance!}

Is this really the place for tactics? You'd be crushed for this in any squadron i've ever been a part of. Do yourself a favor and quit...your future squadron bros are watching and laughing.

cheers

Edited February 28, 2010 by whatever

[Guest Hawk]

_{**New readers to this topic beware: You might be confused by the missing sections of this thread. Some shoe clerk masquerading as an Air Force pilot has made it his business to censor massive portions of this thread in an attempt to safeguard your emotions and shield grown adults from getting their feelings hurt. Be mindful of questioning the rationale of others, particularly with a scornful tone. The resultant pick-and-choose editing process will leave you feeling like you're in communist N. Korea....or the second grade. In fact, this post will probably be deleted any minute now by those that would rather see this site resemble AFN than take the time to locate their testicles and apply a small amount of pressure to check that they're still attached and functioning properly. ...So much for thick skin. Viva la resistance!}

Huh?

You mean removing the total thread derailment pissing contest between two individuals (that caused the thread to initially be locked), thereby allowing the thread to be re-opened and discussion to continue?

Yeah, sounds just like North Korea.

[Tex]

Not to get lost in the queep, but if we are talking about standardized comm, they are now known as Coordinated Attacks. It might help the new guys as they try to research them.

[Guest]

Really? ...Then where are they and what have they all been doing this whole time?

They are out there. Become one of them.

[Guest whatever]

Did I miss something? Was someone discussing tactics while I was sharing an opinion on how to fix a broke system?

Crushed for discussing tactics? ...sounds like an awesome squadron. Good luck with that.

Actually, I consider about 90% of the bros in my future squadron to be close personal friends who I've known and flown with for years. I think I'll be just fine, but thanks for your concern.

Crushed for talking tactics on a message board? Yes. For getting in internet fights with BUFF Navs? No...but still lame.

[schokie]

Crushed for talking tactics on a message board? Yes. For getting in internet fights with BUFF Navs? No...but still lame.

It isn't like this is a Yahoo group where a couple of SNAPish ROTC cadets are debating if the F-16 could beat the F-15C in BFM or why you should vector roll instead of ditch. Hoss isn't talking out of his ass or getting even close to anything classified. Most of the people on this forum have already established their bona fides, otherwise no one would care what they say. I know quite a few people on this forum in the real world, so I know this to be a unique message board where most people are actually no-kidding AF aviators.

I view this place to be exactly what it claims to be, a virtual squadron bar. If it's a conversation I might have in my squadron bar, then I see no problem to have it here.

Not to get lost in the queep, but if we are talking about standardized comm, they are now known as Coordinated Attacks. It might help the new guys as they try to research them.

Thanks. Looks like I have some reading to do tomorrow morning in the vault.

[163 FS]

Is this really the place for tactics? You'd be crushed for this in any squadron i've ever been a part of. Do yourself a favor and quit...your future squadron bros are watching and laughing.

cheers

Hoss wasn't discussing tactics, simply saying what he would change. He makes valid points and, as stated before, wasn't even approaching classified.

What exactly would he be crushed for? I personally know Hoss and hold him in very high esteem in the flying world. I'm sure this discussion will lead to at least one person re-reading the JP or their 3-1 or whatever. That makes this a successful thread and, probably, why Baseops was created in the first place.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Tweet FAIP

[Guest]

I personally know Hoss and hold him in very high esteem in the flying world.

Good start. Can you say why?

[Guest whatever]

Hoss wasn't discussing tactics, simply saying what he would change. He makes valid points and, as stated before, wasn't even approaching classified.

What exactly would he be crushed for? I personally know Hoss and hold him in very high esteem in the flying world. I'm sure this discussion will lead to at least one person re-reading the JP or their 3-1 or whatever. That makes this a successful thread and, probably, why Baseops was created in the first place.

Nevermind, you won't get it. It's too bad this discussion doesn't occur in some of your squadron bars/vaults. Anyhow, I was hoping the rainman/Steve D. fight would go on a bit longer. It had potential...

[schokie]

It's too bad this discussion doesn't occur in some of your squadron bars/vaults.

Now there's something we can all agree on.

[Guest]

Really? ...Then where are they and what have they all been doing this whole time? They sure haven't hooked schokie up with the gouge:

If you're serious, you really don't know the answer and really want to know just tell me where you are (PM is ok in this case) and I'll see if I can give you some names right in your neighborhood.

[BQZip01]

1. I'm a BUFF guy (relatively new to it as well, so I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert)

2. Standardizing the way we do things is generally a good thing. I'd like to see an expansion of guidance from the aforementioned JP

3. A pissing match between "my jet's better at mission X" where "mission X" is something general like CAS is a loser's argument. It is entirely situationally dependent. I can think of historical examples where B-52s were the best selection for CAS (the siege at Khe Sahn comes to mind). In other situations it's the closest/fastest aircraft ("Who can get here the fastest 'cause we NEED help!") and in other cases they need aircraft to pick through the targets one at a time up close and personal (in which case the slowest aircraft are ideal). Hell, maybe a C-17 with a belly full of paratroopers would be the best solution in some cases! Maybe an intel/computer geek might be able to hack into their radios and get them to surrender without firing any more shots. Bickering over who is best at it is a losing argument; we ALL have our roles.

4. It's all pilot/crew-dependent too. You have a rookie and he might not be able to juggle everything Whereas a veteran BUFF crew might be the best solution 'cause they can handle it.

I'm just saying, stop the pissing match and try to find a solution. Some folks in here have some pretty good ideas.