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On 7/10/2022 at 9:32 PM, 08Dawg said:

It's almost like....people who do stupid bullshit don't like being called out for their stupid bullshit.  Oh BTW, if I'm, I dunno, ANY OFFICER in that formation, no fucking way am I letting myself be inspected by some former MTI trying to relive his glory days. 

And it was an “officer”, likely the LRS/CC that condoned this. Shoes get away with this crap because fellow officers don’t have a backbone to put the mission first and not engage in dog and pony shows…much like all the deployed Wing Kings that let their Chiefs and Diamonds run wild. 

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2 hours ago, dream big said:

And it was an “officer”, likely the LRS/CC that condoned this. Shoes get away with this crap because fellow officers don’t have a backbone to put the mission first and not engage in dog and pony shows…much like all the deployed Wing Kings that let their Chiefs and Diamonds run wild. 

 

Reminds me of way back when I was an Airmen Crew Chief during an ORI.  We had an old school (flew in Vietnam) WG/CC who must have wanted to "make a good first impression."  They had all our jets lined up on the ramp and each DCC/ACC stood at ease in front of their respective jets.  The WG/CC picked up the IG/CC from his C-40 transport on the taxiway, then on their way to the in-brief, they made a pass down the line of jets.  As the car approached each of us came to attention and saluted (on the flight line no less) the car as it passed.  What a fucking ridiculous waste of time and pepper grinding to the max.  Does anyone think this shit really matters?  My guess is the IG was cringing on the inside. 

Edited by SocialD
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Unbelievable. I have reserved all judgement and opinions until now. Well, now that video evidence is out - fucking pussies. Of all places, I wouldn’t have expected LEOs in Texas to be so dickless (not applying this Texas-wide). 

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1 minute ago, brabus said:

Unbelievable. I have reserved all judgement and opinions until now. Well, now that video evidence is out - fucking pussies. Of all places, I wouldn’t have expected LEOs in Texas to be so dickless (not applying this Texas-wide). 

The fucktard posted in the hallway checking his phone with a punisher background along with the kitted out bloke getting hand sanitizer was a nice touch. 

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39 minutes ago, uhhello said:

The full Uvalde video was released. Absolute cowards. All of them. 

That's a complete lack of training.  They have no idea what to do, they're out of ideas.  Not knowing what to do, is what breeds that fear.  

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7 minutes ago, busdriver said:

That's a complete lack of training.  They have no idea what to do, they're out of ideas.  Not knowing what to do, is what breeds that fear.  

Horse shit. Grab a fellow cop and run towards the gunfire. These guys were buddied up but hopped away at every gunshot they heard. 

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9 minutes ago, uhhello said:

Horse shit. 

Clearing a school building is a MFer, I would guess that they're taught to wait for SWAT and only go in, in an emergency.  I would guess they've never drilled the emergency part, which is based on their god awful movement/positioning/etc. 

My contention is if those pistol packing cops had drilled that emergency situation (clearly this situation fit that description) repeatedly, to the point of automatic response, they would have moved in this case.  Your contention is they are just a whole group of pussies?  Some of them, maybe, but all of them?

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2 hours ago, brabus said:

Unbelievable. I have reserved all judgement and opinions until now. Well, now that video evidence is out - fucking pussies. Of all places, I wouldn’t have expected LEOs in Texas to be so dickless (not applying this Texas-wide). 

Might be a stretch, but I’m wondering if this might be a second hand effect of the George Floyd riots, defund the police etc.  Could be..it’s tough to find quality recruits, who would want to be a cop in the current environment? It could be that Uvalde is mostly a minority town and the cops are more afraid of an incident landing them on national news (no excuse not to go defend children).  This is what happens when we have built a generation of cowards and sissies. God help us if we ever actually go to war, and not the BS kind we had in Afghanistan. 

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6 hours ago, busdriver said:

Clearing a school building is a MFer, I would guess that they're taught to wait for SWAT and only go in, in an emergency.  I would guess they've never drilled the emergency part, which is based on their god awful movement/positioning/etc. 

My contention is if those pistol packing cops had drilled that emergency situation (clearly this situation fit that description) repeatedly, to the point of automatic response, they would have moved in this case.  Your contention is they are just a whole group of pussies?  Some of them, maybe, but all of them?

When unarmed civilian parents are more willing to enter the building than tactically outfitted cops...I'd say the pussy label fits pretty well.

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6 hours ago, dream big said:

Might be a stretch, but I’m wondering if this might be a second hand effect of the George Floyd riots, defund the police etc.  Could be..it’s tough to find quality recruits, who would want to be a cop in the current environment? It could be that Uvalde is mostly a minority town and the cops are more afraid of an incident landing them on national news (no excuse not to go defend children).  This is what happens when we have built a generation of cowards and sissies. God help us if we ever actually go to war, and not the BS kind we had in Afghanistan. 

Maybe not that big a stretch, I was thinking this myself.

I think what we see in the video speaks volumes about lack of training and leadership.  They have no idea what to do, and the person-in-charge doesn't know what to do either (or is a straight-up coward).  

Why is that police chief still there, they should run him out of town on a rail.

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Yeah, my limited understanding is they had some level of training on what to do in the event of a school shooting.  Can't comment on the level of skill of the officers involved.  I've heard of PD's having a tough time recruiting/retaining officers in the wake of "Defund the Police," ACAB, etc.  Maybe Uvaldle has lost experienced folks, but I expected that to be more of an issue in the blue states and not Texas.  Who knows.

All that aside, if it's possible for good to come out of an abhorrent event like this, maybe it'll crystallize the fact that "calling the cops" is not some panacea.  Folks like the NRA like to tout clichés like "When seconds count, police are minutes away," but the fact of the matter is it's true.  The 2018 Parkland Shooting resulted in the Coward from Broward.  Maybe these guys will be dubbed the Uvalde Useless.

I supposed it all depends on the environment in which you were raised, but most everyone I know defaults to "I'll call the cops!" when serious trouble arises.  As if Johnny Law will instantaneously teleport to your location, defuse the situation, and put any preparator in cuffs and a striped shirt.

Here in Chicago, violence has always ebbed and flowed.  Over the years, the local government and PD seemed to be "business as usual" as long as the crime stayed in the right places and amongst the right people (i.e. on the South and West sides, and amongst the gangs and the poor).  Every now and again, crime would spike in the Loop or the North side (where all the money is), and city government and PD would respond with a quickness, upping patrols and reassigning manpower until the crime abated.

Now, you've got events like this.  In Lincoln Park, one of the nicest neighborhoods in the city, some dude lies in wait behind a building, then jumps out to rob someone of their phone.  Guy fights back, there is a struggle, and the poor SOB gets shot twice.  While the victim is lying on the ground in agony, the perpetrator demands his phone password, and once he has it, he puts a bullet in the guys head.  It's like something out of a movie.

Since it's in a nice neighborhood full of monied people, the whole thing is caught in high definition audio and video via some homeowner's security camera.

In days past, this would have ignited a flurry of police press conferences and the like.  Now, it's just another Friday.

Shits getting bad.  It's gonna get worse.  If you run into trouble, by all means, dial 911.  But realize that may just get you some guys to arrive after-the-fact and take down the official report of what transpired.  You may be all on your own.

As awful as it is to think about "the next school shooting," I assume it's bound to happen.  I'd like to think any concerned parents will wait a hot second to determine what the cops are doing.  If the parents don't see immediate action, they'll take the opportunity to jump in themselves.

Edited by Blue
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10 hours ago, busdriver said:

Clearing a school building is a MFer, I would guess that they're taught to wait for SWAT and only go in, in an emergency.  I would guess they've never drilled the emergency part, which is based on their god awful movement/positioning/etc. 

My contention is if those pistol packing cops had drilled that emergency situation (clearly this situation fit that description) repeatedly, to the point of automatic response, they would have moved in this case.  Your contention is they are just a whole group of pussies?  Some of them, maybe, but all of them?

They aren’t clearing a school building. They know exactly what classroom the gunshots are coming from almost immediately.  All active shooter training for the past 10 years or more says to immediately stop the killing. No waiting. Grab a partner and go.  

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Here in Chicago, violence has always ebbed and flowed.  Over the years, the local government and PD seemed to be "business as usual" as long as the crime stayed in the right places and amongst the right people (i.e. on the South and West sides, and amongst the gangs and the poor).  Every now and again, crime would spike in the Loop or the North side (where all the money is), and city government and PD would respond with a quickness, upping patrols and reassigning manpower until the crime abated.
Now, you've got events like this.  In Lincoln Park, one of the nicest neighborhoods in the city, some dude lies in wait behind a building, then jumps out to rob someone of their phone.  Guy fights back, there is a struggle, and the poor SOB gets shot twice.  While the victim is lying on the ground in agony, the perpetrator demands his phone password, and once he has it, he puts a bullet in the guys head. 

It's like something out of a movie.



Blue, you’re not wrong. It absolutely is like something out of a movie.

The fact that someone getting executed (or critically wounded with life altering injuries) on the street with a bullet to their head for their cell phone is something we equate to Hollywood and what society sees on the big screen.

It’s kind of sick if you stop and think about it.
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35 minutes ago, uhhello said:

They aren’t clearing a school building. They know exactly what classroom the gunshots are coming from almost immediately.  All active shooter training for the past 10 years or more says to immediately stop the killing. No waiting. Grab a partner and go.  

The totally failed police response to this active shooter situation reminds me of something really simple = 'Lead, Follow, or Get the Hell Out of The Way - NOW'.  Most of the Law Enforcement officers actions during this active shooter incident were equivalent to a modern-day (Real World) version of F-Troop, particularly the scenes from the new video that was just released.

 

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1 hour ago, uhhello said:

They know exactly what classroom the gunshots are coming from almost immediately.  All active shooter training for the past 10 years or more says to immediately stop the killing. No waiting. Grab a partner and go.  

Is there only one shooter?  So they shouldn't be covering other potential axis' of approach?

I'm not saying they shouldn't have gone in, obviously they should have.  I said this fits the description of an emergency situation.

 

Put it this way.  Look at the first handful of cops going in on the video.  Do they look anything like any video you have ever seen of dudes going into a building?  But they are moving towards the shooter.  Then shooting, and then running.  Panic.  No idea what to do.  Success in that environment requires speed and teamwork, which requires training to acquire.

If one or two of them had straight up banzai'd the shooter, the outcome would have likely been hero of the day.  But if the plan is rely on a hero emerging instead of training competence and confidence, well hope is not a tactic.

So the lesson learned in debrief of this thing is to stop hiring pussies?  Essentially "do better,"  great lesson learned....

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55 minutes ago, Scooter14 said:

It’s kind of sick if you stop and think about it.

 

 

Extremely sickening.  If we started actually punishing people for their crimes, maybe there would be less of this shit.  The dude that pulled the trigger does not belong among the living, anything less than the death penalty is a disservice to justice.  The dude executed an innocent person for a damn cell phone.  Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll die from an overdose from whatever drug he bought with the sale of that cellphone. 

 

Mentioned this before on this site, but someone hit on it above.  My Guard base is filled with great dudes/dudettes who are staying on orders rather than go back to their LEO jobs.  Many of their friends are leaving for other careers because of the way things have become.  With good people leaving, I cringe at who fills their spots...

Edited by SocialD
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That video is hard to watch.  Now that I have a soon to be 6 yr old, I cant imagine having to live through something like this or the fear or it happening.  We chose to homeschool our kids for many reasons.  This being one of them.  It can happen anywhere.

We lived in CO and there was constant issues with guns in wealthy suburban areas.  Lots of drug issues in schools with kids and parents.  The police reaction is similar in Uvalde is similar to a shooting in Arvada a lil over a year ago.  Arvada is a wealthy burb of Denver with a historicish downtown.  Some wackjob parks his truck walks up to a cop and offs him right there.  A hunting store across the street had 3 cops in it and 1 civi with a CCW.  COps hid, Civi takes out the shooter.  Then, more cops show up and take out the civi.  

I cant think of a better time to argue pro 2A then now.  If my kid was in that school I know what me and my wife woudl have done.

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2 hours ago, busdriver said:

Is there only one shooter?  So they shouldn't be covering other potential axis' of approach?

I'm not saying they shouldn't have gone in, obviously they should have.  I said this fits the description of an emergency situation.

 

Put it this way.  Look at the first handful of cops going in on the video.  Do they look anything like any video you have ever seen of dudes going into a building?  But they are moving towards the shooter.  Then shooting, and then running.  Panic.  No idea what to do.  Success in that environment requires speed and teamwork, which requires training to acquire.

If one or two of them had straight up banzai'd the shooter, the outcome would have likely been hero of the day.  But if the plan is rely on a hero emerging instead of training competence and confidence, well hope is not a tactic.

So the lesson learned in debrief of this thing is to stop hiring pussies?  Essentially "do better,"  great lesson learned....

The training which the officer in charge of the scene attended just before this massacre was based off instantly reacting and neautulizing the shooter.  I don't care what you look like or the level of training you have, your job as a police officer in that situation is to respond, react, and get to where the killing is happening.  There were 20 assholes "guarding axis of approach".  They knew where this guy was less than 5 minutes in.  There were 911 calls stating the killing (obviously) was still going on in specific rooms.  

Sure training is great and would only help but they literally had specific detailed training for responses to this exact scenario a couple months before it happened.  This was one of the quotes from the training....‘First responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field,’ the training stated

 

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/06/03/uvalde-cisd-police-hosted-active-shooter-training-in-march-that-urged-immediate-decisive-action/

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29 minutes ago, uhhello said:

The training which the officer in charge of the scene attended just before this massacre

How many days of drilling over how many years of training? 

How many years of training within a culture of constant learning as an aircrew member before you started acting in a leadership role?  Academically knowing what you are supposed to do, is different than doing it with proficiency under stress, without thinking.

Whatever training system produced those cops will produce the same in the future.  "Courage under fire" isn't innate.  It is taught and built over years.

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5 minutes ago, busdriver said:

How many days of drilling over how many years of training? 

How many years of training within a culture of constant learning as an aircrew member before you started acting in a leadership role?  Academically knowing what you are supposed to do, is different than doing it with proficiency under stress, without thinking.

Whatever training system produced those cops will produce the same in the future.  "Courage under fire" isn't innate.  It is taught and built over years.

So you're saying none of these police officers were cowards?  I'm not getting what you're throwing down other than the obvious.  This isn't rocket science.  This isn't SEAL team six taking down a giant building full of bad dudes.  This was one confirmed shooter in one room and these assholes ran away from it versus engaging.  These guys from leadership down to the youngest cop on scene there failed to take ANY sort of action when it was required of them to do so.  You sound like the Uvalde mayor.  Nice.  

Edited by uhhello
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30 minutes ago, uhhello said:

So you're saying none of these police officers were cowards?  I'm not getting what you're throwing down other than the obvious.  These guys from leadership down to the youngest cop on scene there failed to take ANY sort of action when it was required of them to do so.  You sound like the Uvalde mayor.  Nice.  

It was an absolute top to bottom failure, no doubt.  Was it cowardice, well in a definitional sense (lack of bravery), sure I guess.  What I'm saying is righteous indignation about a bag of pussies doesn't fix anything.

In other words, is the root cause of the problem a constitutional problem with the specific people hired to do the job?  Or a complete failure of department training and culture?

You want cops who will act in that type of situation, then you have to have enough on the force that you can pull a percentage of them off the street on a routine basis and have them drill building entry.  They have to have to tools to actually solve the problem.  If they haven't drilled it to the point of second nature, they won't do it under stress.  They "freeze."  

How many people in the military who've done amazing things, have afterwards basically said they didn't think about it, they just did what they were trained to do?

EDIT:

I guess I'm just really beating around the bush of an old dead guy quote:

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations; we fall to the level of our training." -Archilochus

Edited by busdriver
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Not just since Floyd; I've thought the quality of police recruitment had to significantly decrease since the Ferguson riots.  In recent memory, that seems to be the tipping point.  Ten years ago I had considered being a cop as a retirement job.  Once Ferguson happened and the cop was guilty until proven innocent, and even then not believed by many despite an exhaustive investigation that proved he was being physically assaulted by a guy twice his size, that was the end of me even considering that as an option.  And it has only gotten worse since then.  There has to be more people like me that would have considered being a cop, but decided that helping the society wasn't worth potentially being put in prison for correctly doing the job.

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3 minutes ago, busdriver said:

 

In other words, is the root cause of the problem a constitutional problem with the specific people hired to do the job?  Or a complete failure of department training and culture?

You want cops who will act in that type of situation, then you have to have enough on the force that you can pull a percentage of them off the street on a routine basis and have them drill building entry.  They have to have to tools to actually solve the problem.  If they haven't drilled it to the point of second nature, they won't do it under stress.  They "freeze."  

 

Thanks for this post.  I’ve been following the conversation until now and had been completely baffled by what point you’d been driving at.  I think your point is simply the cops needed better training? 
 

I totally disagree.  Those cops are not worth investing in.  I get the initial chaos, but after 10 minutes without a decision?  It’s go time and if that isn’t innate then you should turn in your badge.  They were worse than frozen by fear or incompetent C2, they actually tazed & cuffed parents!  Disgusting.  Indefensible.  Happy to have a training discussion once every cop on scene has been fired & prohibited from employment in public safety.  Accountability first.

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