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Solution: Everyone who signs up for the service starting tomorrow will be under the new system. Everyone who signed up yesterday will be under the old system. Problem solved.

I'm going to need additional pics of the driver in order to better assist you.

Dammit, I thought this thread was going to be about revolution in the AF!

Too easy and makes too much sense.....which is why it won't happen.

I like your optimism...you must work at the Pentagon or some staff and tell the bosses "yes Sir, everything is great Sir!" even though they are not. Rewind back in time to the mid 90s (you may be too young for this)...yes, pilots got out in droves. And just think...they were deploying less, putting up with less BS (AAD/PME emphasis), and actually doing more "fun" flying with less office work (the days of the OST). Do you remember when and why the "pilot/nav bonuses" started? I think you're spot on if you're talking about those on the support side of the house probably not getting out...the job market is a little different right now on the outside for those guys. But then again, most non-rated AFSC aren't being offered $25K bonuses either. However, if you think those on the rated side won't get out because they are "addicted" to benefits that congress is currently talking about taking away, you Sir, are sorely mistaken. I'll be sure to revive this thread after Oct 2012 when the AF finally figures it out...I'll see your call and raise you a stop loss/higher bonus proposal courtesy of the USAF probably starting in FY2013. This isn't new...we've seen this before. Probably because you can't afford to get out because you're not ready. Stay in...hopefully you'll be the change for "what you think is wrong with the Air Force." As for me, I'll give up my "addiction" because I can, and I'm ready...

This is a really good point. Where is PYB when you need him? And just to save someone else the time, I tried refractive indices and it only hurts his case.

Got this in the email today. I had an unforgettable day yesterday and wanted to share it with you. I know we've all sat around and discussed in detail why we do what we do and if we will be willing to continue to do what we do day in and day out regardless of deployments, retirement decisions, job opportunities, missed birthdays, missed holidays, etc. This is something I wanted to share and you were the people that came to mind. It's another reason I continue to serve.I guess because many others do and sacrifice a lot more, some even their lives. My crew was alerted yesterday to find that our mission had changed. We were now a backup to a high priority mission originating from Afghanistan. When I asked where we would be going the answer was "back to the states". Later I learned our destination was Dover. I was the aircraft commander for one of two C-17s that transferred the Chinook helicopter crash soldiers back home. The crew that started this mission in Afghanistan would end up running out of crew duty day and need another crew to continue the soldier's journey. We just happened to be available. After being alerted and going through our normal sequence, I found myself at the foot of the aircraft steps. Before I took my first step upward I noticed a transfer case close to the door. I had only seen one in pictures. The American Flag was tucked smartly, folded and secured on top. I paused at the bottom of the stairs, took a deep breath and continued up with my mind and eyes focusing on making it to the next ladder leading to the cockpit. However, as I entered, I couldn't help but notice the remaining nineteen transfer cases in the cargo compartment. The entire cargo compartment was filled with identical transfer cases with American Flags. I made my way up to the cockpit and received a briefing from the previous aircraft commander. After the briefing we exchanged a handshake and the other pilot was on his way. I felt a need to ensure the crew focused on their normal duties. I instructed the other two pilots to began the preflight. I went back down into the cargo compartment to see what needed to be done and find the paperwork I needed to sign. The cargo compartment was now filled with numerous people from the mortuary affairs squadron. They were busy adjusting, resetting and overall preparing the cases for their continued flight. Before they began I asked who was in charge because I knew there was paperwork I needed to sign. I finally found a Staff Sergeant who was working an issue with the paperwork. After it was complete, he brought it up to the cockpit for me to review and sign. There are moments in life I will never forget. For me, it's the days my son and daughter were born. Another occurred five months ago when I had to deliver the unthinkable news to a mother that her son was killed in Afghanistan and although I didn't anticipate another day like that this soon, yesterday was another. I looked at the paperwork I was signing and realized the magnitude of the day. I glanced over the paperwork and signed. In a way, I felt I had taken ownership of these fallen soldiers. It was now my duty to ensure they make it home. After confirming the preflight was complete and the aircraft was fueled, I went outside to start my walk-around. As I walked down the steps, a bus had parked in front of the aircraft and unloaded eleven passengers. The passengers were fellow SEAL team members who were escorting the fallen back to the states. I stood at the front of the aircraft and watched them board. Every one of them walked off the bus with focus in their eyes and determination in their steps; just as I imagine they do when they go on a mission. I made eye contact with the lead SEAL, nodded my head in respect and he nodded back. Finishing my walk-around, I stopped at the bottom of the stairs. I looked up into the cargo compartment; two American Flags and one SEAL Team Six flag hung from the top of the cargo compartment. Three of twenty transfer cases visible; one with an American Flag and two with Afghan flags. I looked up at my aircraft and saw, "United States Air Force" painted on the side and I stood trying to take it all in. I wanted to make certain that I never forget these images. That I never forget the faces of the SEALS, the smell of the cargo compartment or the sun slowly rising over the landscape. It's important that I don't forget. We need to honor the dead, honor the sacrifice of the fallen. I understand my role in getting these fallen soldiers home is insignificant compared to the lives they lived and the things they did for our country. Most of it we will never know. All I know is every American should see what I've seen. Every American should see the bus loads of families as they exit the freeway headed for Dover AFB to reunite with their fallen or witness the amount of time, effort, people and equipment that go into ensuring our fallen have a honorable return. The very next day we took the same aircraft back overseas. We had leveled the aircraft at our cruise altitude and I walked down to the cargo compartment. No more American Flags hung from the ceiling. All the transfer cases were gone. Instead I watched a father lay with his son, cradled on his chest, on the same spot that only yesterday held a fallen soldier. I watched a young girl, clutching a teddy bear, sleeping quietly where the fallen had laid. I realized so many Americans have no idea where the fallen lay. I'm honored to be one that does.

The reasonable doubt should be that there is zero physical or circumstantial evidence that your girl was operating the vehicle. It's absurd that someone can be convicted of a crime where the relationship between an owner of the vehicle and the literal/metaphorical vehicle in which the crime was committed in/with cannot be proven. If you were poor and disenfranchised I would say just call the ACLU. I would load up with everything. Grab all the case law/precedent you can, get your science/math on, then hit them with the "its your job to PROVE it was her, not mine to prove it wasn't. FU!"

They have two current suggestions for retirement from the linked document. The first keeps the current system with three changes: one time lump sum with no monthly payout until 67; 2.0 multiplier (40% base pay for 20 years); High 3 changes to High 5 which will drive down the average monthly payout. There is no mention of what they might do with the CPI. The second is the TSP + matching. Based on the math they've done, they're going to save huge amounts of money because they're not paying out a monthly amount...they're only matching what members contribute over their careers ($16.5k max gov't contribution per year unless in CZTE, then max $49k gov't and member combined contribution). For the hypothetical situation, let's assume a 2Lt starts contributing immediately and stays in 20 years: Gov't money spent (not counting overhead etc): 16.5k * 20 = 330,000 or 24.5k (max gov't matching to stay below 49k) * 20 = 490,000 Current system gov't money spent (assume retires as LtCol with 20 years, pay frozen at proposed 2012 charts): 7,908 * .5 = 3,954/month 3,954/month * 12 months * 36 years (average military life expectancy remaining past retirement) = 1,708,128 As a Maj: 7,136 * .5 = 3,568/month 3,568/month * 12 months * 36 years (average military life expectancy remaining past retirement) = 1,541,376 Looks like 66%+ savings to my shitty math skills (based on the PPT available information).

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Read about Robin Olds, but also read about guys like Heinie Aderholt. There are plenty of others as well, but I seriously doubt Aderholt and Olds would have seen eye to eye, but both where great leaders.

I'm out if they implement this. 3 years left on ADSC and I'll be a current flying viper pilot when I am eligible to get out. Why would I stick around and put my family through the asspain while the airlines are hiring, etc? My plan is to remain in for 20 but if they pull this act I'm gonna have to take a knee. Good luck AF.

This is the truest statement in the entire thread. If I can get this new military "retirement" at most any job a college grad would get in the public/private sector, why would I stick around for the most taxing final decade? Sorry AF, you no longer have me over the barrel for a 365... I'll take my TSP and 7-day opt. It's not like anything significant happens at 20 years anymore. My patriotism will only get me so far with ditching my family for months at a time EVERY YEAR. I don't want to hear that anymore. If I served out my commitment, I'm a patriot. If I'm a 4-year one-term airman, I'm a patriot. The DBB needs to stop hiding behind this recurring "fairness" theme... we don't need to be fair to the 83% who don't stick it out for 20 years... we need a retention tool to keep people from turning down shitty deals between 15-20 years. Get real, the DBB has never been about fairness... it's a cadre of Bob Slydells from Office Space.

We all know changes are coming to the current retirement system, the questions is how drastic will the changes be and how drastic will the effects be on the force. There are a lot of different plans out there...the one I think is most likely to be implemented is the one that takes a snap shot of the current force and offers a percentage of current years served as retirement at 20 in addition to matching TSP contributions between implementation date and 20 years of service. They sound like great ideas on paper when it comes to saving money, but I think it will have severe impacts on our readiness and force structure of the future...specifically 10 years from now. Here are a few points to consider: If there is no longer an incentive to stay in past 20 for a guaranteed annuity, where will your leadership come from? What benefits are left that would keep people in up to or past 20? Will the strength of the force become dependent on the investment market? In other words, will people start to take the money and run at 15 years if it looks like the stock market will crash? What happens to people at 19 or 20 years who are invested in the TSP when the market crashes? What happens to the readiness of the force if while at war the market is in flux? Should our troops have to worry about their nest egg while fighting a war because the market is in flux due to irresponsible government spending? This new retirement system seem to be just a pay cut, especially to our younger troops. TSP becomes mandatory and is only "matched" up to 16.5%? So SrA Yummybritches has to invest 16.5% of her already low base pay to save for a retirement that may or may not be there when she hits 20? They make this seem like it is "fair" for everyone who serves, but without a guarantee of a set annuity, I find it hard to believe anyone will stay invested in a retirement fund for much longer than 10 years. We are already hollowing out the force now by forcing out experienced NCOs with the HYT rollbacks and with the FGO RIF that just happened. Now you want to hollow out the force more by implementing a market-dependent retirement system that doesn't encourage anyone with experience to stay longer than 10-15 years? I'd like to get everyone else's thoughts on impact to the force with this new retirement system. I think there is more to it than just trying to save money...and I don't think any of the leadership making these decisions are considering ANY of the implications of any of these new plans. If they have been thinking about them, they haven't addressed them. I know they've talked about targeting certain specialties and increased benefits during wartime, but I think they'll have to apply them to ALL career fields to cover the personnel shortfalls that are going to happen. Thoughts?? Edit for GRAMMAH

Yeah I agree they're a little goofy looking. Not as pretty as the RV's but the goofiness has grown on me! They have some pretty cool projects going up there at Sonex too. When I visited in February they were testing a single place folding-wing model, which I think is for sale now. I guess with the wings folded up it's only as wide as a car! They also had a jet-powered model that they're testing but I don't think it has flown yet. That probably won't come out any time soon, if ever, though. Here's a pretty nice cockpit video: It just seems like a simple, fun airplane!

I remain skeptical of all the people who say they would bail if retirement was changed. I really do want to call that bluff, because I believe that even without a pension plan, people are still addicted to the benefits, pay, and job stability. I think that for guys who are unmarried and have no kids, it's not as big of a stretch to get out and switch careers, but I seriously doubt you'll see a mass exodus of guys with families and mortgages used to a higher standard of living suddenly willing to test a precipitous job market. People might bitch, complain, and threaten to leave, but they'll stay, because they can't afford to leave until they're ready. And if say 100,000 people suddenly left, then 100,000 people would suddenly get promoted early, and 100,000 civilians would get incentives to join the military. And then we would be in a "new normal" where people get paid higher, because the DoD can't just rely on a massive expensive, unsustainable retention tool. Now the DoD is actually more beholden to how it treats is members. Ironically, if all the people weathering the bullshit for the 20 year pension left in droves, I would most likely stay in, as I see them as the main problem with the military. The massive staff officer bureaucracy between 10-20 years of service (not counting prior enlisted), the careerism, and the willingness to let things go unchecked because they're holding on for a pension, are the biggest causes of what I see wrong with the Air Force.

For the masses... a sample letter to your Senator/Congressman. A place to start... change it up/write your own, but take the time to make your voice heard. We can't bitch about how little Congress does if we didn't attempt to suggest some changes. ------------------------------------------- My name is Ken Blankenship. I'm a Texas resident and a registered voter in XXXX county. I'm married with XXX small children. I'm also an X-year combat veteran who has served in Operations IRAQI FREEDOM, ENDURING FREEDOM, and UNIFIED PROTECTOR, piloting both the C-130 and KC-135. With regard to the pending military retirement change proposed by the Defense Business Board, I can assure you that it will be a game changer for myself and my family if implemented. From my earliest years at <XX COLLEGE>, I've mentally and physically prepared myself to become a useful instrument of national policy, ready for my country's call to arms. After the completion of various training programs over the years, I've signed multiple military service commitments extending my active duty contract. I've deployed XX times in support of global contingency operations and dealt with extended time away from my family. We know that military service is a life of sacrifice so our great country can continue to prosper and act in our defense and the defense of our allies. In XX years, my family has moved XX times to support my training and duty assignment changes. During this time, my wife has held several part-time jobs, as very few companies are willing to support military spouses long-term. She has been unable to establish a successful career using he rBachelor's degree due to the uncertainty of our frequent moves. Last year, we were finally able to purchase our first home, which we will live in for three years and then sell (if able) because our budget can't support multiple mortgages. This constant cycle of moving has created instability with my wife's potential income and will result in a constant regeneration of a mortgage payment for the duration of my military career, resulting in restarting a final 30-year mortgage when we're finally able to settle down in one location. If the current 20-year cliff-vested retirement is traded for a 401k style traditional IRA with income matching, it will significantly affect my family's decision to continue to serve our great country on active duty. Like many military officers, I have marketable career options in the public and private sector based on a resume highlighting years of leadership experience and multiple advanced academic degrees paid for by the military. As a pilot, I'm also aware of the massive commercial airline hiring boom that will occur in the next five years. The military has paid for all of my academic degrees and aviation certifications, and for that I am grateful. That gratefulness will only go so far as I weigh options for my family's future. All these factors are included in my long-term family planning. Despite the draw to the civilian sector, my family has thus far chosen to stay the course with the military because we understand that our sacrifice will be recognized financially at the end of my career. Military life is inherently volatile, but the stability of the military paycheck and eventual pension has made our decision to stay an easy one. If we continue to soldier through the rough times, we will eventually reach the 20-year retirement which would offset the financial reality that my spouse has been unable to start a career and we are just beginning a 30-year mortgage in our 40s. I've signed commitments that I've upheld throughout my career; if the Department of Defense can change its financial commitment to my family at a moment's notice, there is little difference between military service and a career in the civilian sector. I can get a 401k with income matching as a private citizen. By design, the military life is different from the private sector, and the notion that we should be treated the same is ludicrous. If the Department of Defense wants to align its business practices with Fortune 500 companies, the end result will be a mass exodus of highly qualified service members to those same companies from which the model was created. The cliff-vested retirement is not about being 'fair' to the 83% of service members who do not serve 20 years (as stated in the Defense Business Board's brief); it practically functions as a retention tool to keep highly qualified individuals in the service when years of patriotism and service does not balance with family planning and stability. Senator/Congressman XXXXX, I urge you to consider this letter when the Defense Business Board's proposal makes its way to your desk. I realize budgets cuts need to be made, but gutting the current military retirement system will result in many potential future leaders of the this great country taking their experience and government sponsored educations to the public and private sector. The end goal should not be to align the military with civilian companies; the service requires a greater amount of danger, dedication, and sacrifice. Those individuals who dedicate 20 years to that cause should be able to count on the U.S. Government to repay that debt. Sincerely, Ken Blankenship -------------------------------- Edit: Bureau for Board

Am I the only Air Force pilot just not 100% impressed with the Robin Old's style? It is a niche leadership style that worked for a certain type of person in a particular era. As I mentioned in the previous post, I agree with his tenacity and am obviously not a fan of the complete slide to political correctness today. But, Olds' style was much like a Patton. Olds and Patton are great battlefield commanders. But, imagine if Eisenhower and Omar Bradley weren't present to keep aggressive leadership style such as Patton's in check. Similarly, I think an Olds style leadership simply caps out at a point. Disregard for politics in total favor for mission and bros is simply an ideal that doesn't exist in the real world. Personally, I prefer Gen Welsh, Colin Powell, Petraeus type that seem to strike an excellent balance between politics, morale, and mission. Unfortuantely, this style is few and far between so we tend to herald back to the days of Gen Olds and set an unrealistic benchmark

I was surprised about the 20% too...but even more surprised at the enormous costs associated with such a small percentage of retirees that continues to rise. I think this new "retirement" system that pretends to be "fair" to all who serve is really just an attempt to create another pot of money (required TSP contributions) to raid in order to fund the current retirees until they can find another solution. I think they are hoping this new investment strategy lasts long enough to fund and eventually phase out the 20-year annuity retirees so there will no longer be a liability. We are living longer, so it will obviously take decades before that happens. The problem is that I don't see people motivated to stay longer than 10 years...so in the long run, the DoD spends billions of dollars training new recruits to replace the ones who are no longer motivated to stay in past 10 years. Where are the savings? If I were coming into the military today under the new retirement system, I would contribute for 10 years into the TSP, get my free education, free $1M flight training, and transfer my investments to a real 401k when I transition to the airlines. Other than patriotism, give me another reason why I should stay any longer than that? My question is what other benefits will they offer to keep people in past 10 years in order to continue "funding" the current benefits?Because we are living longer, the retirement benefits currently funded by DoD won't decrease fast enough in series with the proposed defense budget cuts. So, in theory, entitlement spending for DoD will become a larger percentage of the smaller DoD budget. It has to be funded somehow...