Questions on TPS (Test Pilot School)

[Fozzy Bear]

Yeah, even as a Heavy guy, you'll get qualed in an F-16, F-18, T-38, and maybe one or two other fast movers.

[Guest RenegadeCK]

Is it the same deal with Navy TPS as far as qualifications? Also is TPS a must to apply to become an astronaut?

[Guest LittleMan]

Anyone know what the chances of a Guard fighter guy getting into TPS (assuming the minimum requirements are met)? I assume you would have to transition to AD, but could you hold off on the transition until you were selected, or must you be AD to apply?

[Guest thefranchise]

Also is TPS a must to apply to become an astronaut?

nope. you can look on the NASA site for the requirments; that said it seems TPS does a ton for you application though

[Guest Dagger1]

Quick question for anyone who has applied to TPS.

I know they recently changed the requirements for entry, they can be found here:

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/medi...s/AFI99-107.pdf

My question is: On page 4, under the Experience (hours) section, "Pilots must be qualified instructor pilots in a major weapon system or have at least 750 hours total time"; does the "750 hours total time" mean you must have 750 hours in your MWS? or just 750 hours total flying time in any/all aircraft? The way it is worded is a little vauge.

My question is in reference to FAIPing. If TPS looks at MWS time only and total time means jack then all those FAIP hours seem kind of worthless as far as your application goes...

[Guest Coxor]

http://www.tps06a.com/multimedia.htm

Well documented, well laid out. Some of the videos are pretty amusing. A good way to kill an hour.

Looking at that 06A TPS site I'm pretty sure I saw a 1LT or two in the pix. Does that happen often? Anyone know their backgrounds?

[Guest thefranchise]

Quick question for anyone who has applied to TPS.

I know they recently changed the requirements for entry, they can be found here:

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/medi...s/AFI99-107.pdf

My question is: On page 4, under the Experience (hours) section, "Pilots must be qualified instructor pilots in a major weapon system or have at least 750 hours total time"; does the "750 hours total time" mean you must have 750 hours in your MWS? or just 750 hours total flying time in any/all aircraft? The way it is worded is a little vauge.

My question is in reference to FAIPing. If TPS looks at MWS time only and total time means jack then all those FAIP hours seem kind of worthless as far as your application goes...

i believe as a pilot you must meet both criteria:

Pilots must have served at least 12 months as aircraft commander in a major weapon system

AND

Pilots must be qualified instructor pilots in a major weapon system or have at least 750 hours total time.

im pretty certain they are talking about 750hrs in an MWS or you are an IP in an MWS. MWS means alot in TPS from what Im told since you will be focusing your efforts testing aircraft related to your prior MWS field. Having a FAIP get into TPS would be sorta useless since the FAIP can offer no real experience on MWS airframes.

[Mitch Weaver]

Having a FAIP get into TPS would be sorta useless since the FAIP can offer no real experience on MWS airframes.

There are students/graduates who had FAIP experience in addition to meeting the AC requirements for a MWS. There are guys who also left their MWS for a white jet tour and applied as a UPT or IFF IP. Other guys who didn't meet the AC hours requirements had to wait to finish up their white jet tour and reapply after requaling in their previous MWS.

Looking at that 06A TPS site I'm pretty sure I saw a 1LT or two in the pix. Does that happen often? Anyone know their backgrounds?

Yes, it's fairly common to have a few 1Lts per class. They are, however, non-rated engineers.

Anyone know what the chances of a Guard fighter guy getting into TPS (assuming the minimum requirements are met)? I assume you would have to transition to AD, but could you hold off on the transition until you were selected, or must you be AD to apply?

I asked an attached reservist (w/prior Guard test experience) this question and yes, you'd have to accept an AD commission and serve your time on AD as a test pilot. If you want to know more, PM me and I'll pass you his info.

[Prefontaine]

Hi everyone,

I have a question for someone with much more wisdom and knowledge than I have.

Got a pilot slot out of ROTC in February -- stoked. Still waiting to hear back about ENJJPT, but I'm very, very happy with the UPT slot. Just got back a few weeks ago from Brooks as well and I'm 99% sure everything went well.

I've been thinking more about my future in the AF later on down the road and have been considering a few options: namely, the U-2 program and TPS and/or NASA. These last two options require technical degrees, which unfortunately I don't have (PoliSci/History double major). I'd really like to pursue a math degree especially if it'll help me fulfill these requirements and thus I'm piling on a bunch of math courses before I graduate (and some finance ones to help set me up for a masters). But, here are the questions I have:

1) Is it possible to get another bachelors after having already graduated? How hard would this be after graduating UPT and/or knocking out some of it as I sit waiting to start UPT?

2) From what I've gathered by reading this thread, engineering is more highly desired versus a math or physics degree. Is this right?

3) I know this largely varies based upon what schools are willing to do, but if I take a bunch of math courses this year and do well (I plan on taking calc 3, linear algebra, differential equations, and 1-2 more) has anyone heard of schools accepting students to a MS program and simply requiring them to take more undergrad level courses before hitting the masters level stuff?

4) If #3 is possible, would TPS/NASA honor my MS given that I don't have the BS as stated as a requirement on the Edwards TPS site/NASA website?

Sorry for the truckload of questions; any answers are greatly appreciated.

[Karl Hungus]

1) Is it possible to get another bachelors after having already graduated? How hard would this be after graduating UPT and/or knocking out some of it as I sit waiting to start UPT

Is it possible? Absolutely. Is it likely? Hell no. You're ROTC, so you're going to most likely attend ASBC a few weeks to a few months after graduation. Six months to a year after that, you'll start UPT, with IFS thrown in for good measure. You'll attend UPT in either Enid, OK, Columbus, MS, Wichita Falls, TX, or Del Rio, TX. Where do you think you'll go get another bachelors during that time? And where will you get the time to do so? Most casual bases will have you doing odd jobs that won't accommodate a drive to Austin/ Stoolwater/ etc to attend a bachelor's class. Once UPT starts, you'd be a moron to try to get a degree alongside training. You won't make it. After UPT, it depends. Numbers wise, you most likely won't get a T-38, and even if you do, you most likely won't get a fighter. If you get some sort of airframe that has a long wait for post-UPT training, you could probably get a second bachelors. Big if. Best bet is to start now, online or real life, with the realization you won't be done for another 4-5 years.

2) From what I've gathered by reading this thread, engineering is more highly desired versus a math or physics degree. Is this right?

I dunno. Considering you're not close to an engineering degree, let alone a math or physics degree, I'd say get whatever one is easiest/fastest and take your chances.

3) I know this largely varies based upon what schools are willing to do, but if I take a bunch of math courses this year and do well (I plan on taking calc 3, linear algebra, differential equations, and 1-2 more) has anyone heard of schools accepting students to a MS program and simply requiring them to take more undergrad level courses before hitting the masters level stuff?

No idea.

4) If #3 is possible, would TPS/NASA honor my MS given that I don't have the BS as stated as a requirement on the Edwards TPS site/NASA website?

No idea. Big picture: worry about graduating college. Then worry about passing IFS. Then worry about getting through UPT. If you're good enough, worry about which airframe you are awarded. Then worry about becoming the best pilot you can be in that airframe. If after all of that, you have time to worry about a second bachelors or a masters and TPS, go forward. But don't put the cart before the horse. And always remember... the answer will always be no if you don't try. Best of luck.

[brabus]

Here's the thing, I think you're severely underestimating the challenge of military flying/time it demands. Many guys get masters, most guys get something that is far from "TPS standards." Some guys here and there get a decent business degree, etc...but I can't imagine getting a reputable engineering degree on the side while actively flying. I'd almost say it's impossible. Now, if you can somehow get sent to AFIT after your first ops assignment, that's a different story. If this is something you really want to do, then try for AFIT, but I don't really see a way you can get a good engineering degree and be a pilot. You'll be working 12 hrs a day, 5 days a week plus coming in some amount of time on the weekends. It's more than a full time job. You don't have time to fit in a very challenging degree program...hell, even taking one class at a time might send you over the edge. But, you know yourself better than anyone else does.

[Prefontaine]

Thanks for the information Karl and Brabus. I didn't mean to imply at all that I thought I would have plenty of 'down time' during any sort of training. I haven't experienced it myself yet but from years of lurking on these boards and talking to as many people as I can, I have an idea of how tough UPT will be. I would never try to do anything other than learn how to fly during that time. The timeframe I was thinking of was starting before I EAD (most guys from my Det this year who were going to UPT or UNT didn't EAD until at least November and don't start UPT until mid next year) and then trying to complete it at the same time as other guys are working on their masters. If this is even possible, I know it'll be really tough -- that's exactly why I asked here.

Listen, I know it seems foolish to be asking these questions when I haven't even done sh!t in the AF. I haven't even finished ROTC yet. But I've realized that if I have any shot at this I need to start setting myself up NOW (I wish I had done this 3 years ago). Karl -- I wholeheartedly agree with your advice to worry about the big picture (aka getting through college and UPT first) before worrying about this stuff, but like you said, if I don't try, the answer will absolutely be no. So, I'd rather start putting every effort forth now while I still have a small shot at this and later learn that 1) it isn't possible or 2) I'm not good enough for TPS/NASA or 3) my timing is just off than to learn that everything would have worked out for me if I just had that technical degree. I hope that makes sense.

[Guest newguy2]

A few TPS application questions from a late-rated fighter pilot (first assignment grad school, PhD):

1. The new guidance from AFPC for this year's TPS board had the following change to AFI 99-107:

B. EXPERIMENTAL TEST PILOT APPLICANTS MUST HAVE A TAFCS OF FEWER THAN 9 YEARS AND 6 MONTHS (10 YEARS AND 3 MONTHS FOR HELICOPTER PILOTS). PILOTS MUST BE ON EXTENDED ACTIVE DUTY (EAD) AND NOT IN SUSPENDED FLYING STATUS. AT CLASS ENTRY, PILOTS MUST HAVE SERVED AT LEAST 12 MONTHS AS AIRCRAFT COMMANDER IN A MANNED MAJOR WEAPON SYSTEM. PILOTS MUST ALSO BE QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR PILOTS (MINIMUM 50 HOURS INSTRUCTOR TIME) IN A MAJOR WEAPON SYSTEM OR HAVE AT LEAST 750 HOURS TOTAL TIME (150 HOURS MAY BE UAS TIME). SEE TABLE 1 IN THE CURRENT AFI 99-107 FOR EDUCATION, PHYSICAL, AND CLEARANCE REQUIREMENTS.

Looking at AFI 99-107 (old version), the TAFCS requirement applied at class entry, e.g. you couldn't have a TAFCS > 9 years 6 months on day 1 of class. The new guidance above suggests that the TAFCS requirement applies at the time you submit an application. Is that true?

2. Are waivers for TAFCS common or likely?

3. I have heard (but not seen) that there is a requirement to have at least 2 years time on station by class start. If I'm applying near the end of my current tour and will PCS after the board meets but prior to class start, will that 2 year time on station requirement be a non-starter?

4. At my next base, how likely it is to get the 2 year time on station requirement waived so I can apply in my first year at the new base?

5. Obligatory "what are my chances" question - I'm a late rated fighter pilot with a narrow window within which to get the minimum total hours (750) before exceeding the TAFCS limit - basically, 1 ops tour. I had excellent undergrad grades, and have a PhD in engineering to show for my lack of flight experience relative to my peers. As best I can tell, the first time I apply I'll have ~450-500 hours (will make up the rest prior to class start), and the second (and last) time I apply I'll have ~750-800 hours. Thoughts?

Any guidance or advice is welcome - thanks fellas.

[Dupe]

I have heard (but not seen) that there is a requirement to have at least 2 years time on station by class start.

There is no time on-station requirement to apply to TPS. I know a couple guys who got an assignment RIP, then found out they got picked up to TPS. They then PCSed to the original projected assignment only to PCS to Edwards shortly thereafter. I also know a guy who got brought back from a Korea ALO tour to start TPS.

Obligatory "what are my chances" question - I'm a late rated fighter pilot with a narrow window within which to get the minimum total hours (750) before exceeding the TAFCS limit - basically, 1 ops tour. I had excellent undergrad grades, and have a PhD in engineering to show for my lack of flight experience relative to my peers. As best I can tell, the first time I apply I'll have ~450-500 hours (will make up the rest prior to class start), and the second (and last) time I apply I'll have ~750-800 hours

There was a late-rated guy in my class who had no trouble. There was a pilot with a PhD in my senior class. He also had no trouble. I spoke with the TPS Commandant a year or so ago about how they pick people. Here's the basics: they score you with respect to flying record, officership, and education. Some years, the board values education more than your flying record. Other years, they want IPs and don't care as much about post-undergrad education. As with all things in the AF, luck and timing are key. Like others have said...you'll never know if you don't apply.

[Guest Q36]

I am not a grad or anything, but I have been working at the school here for a while, and have seen how most of this works.

1 & 2) For the most part, if you are barely over TAFCS they don't seem to mind. TAFCS waivers are common enough that it shouldn't be a big deal. They will be much more concerned with you ability to hack the academics, than if you are 6-12 months over the limits. So with a PhD you should be good.

3 & 4) Never heard of this holding anyone back, pretty sure a TPS slot trumps PCS schedule.

5) The process for getting selected to TPS is the same as UPT. (The same office at AFPC runs it) They basically bring in a group of mostly rated guys (and FTEs) who have been around testing for a while have have them go through the packages. I believe the TPS Commadant oversees it. So every year you will see slightly different emphasis on who gets in. In general they seem to forgive not quit hitting the GPArequirements, so they might feel the same about hours. Don't forget that its an IP or 750 hours. Now with that being said, the average for the last couple of classes is 1400+ hours. I am not sure of your chances of getting picked up first go, it will depend on the board, but if you can make the hours, you will be very competitive based on the students I see here now.

What airframe are you in? They seem to prefer fighters, but I have seen most other airframes. If you make it to the canidate stage you will get a chance to come out to the school and fly in multiple different aircraft to see how you adjust to each.

The class size has gone from 20 to 24, so your chances are slightly better now. PM me if you want to know more, or I can put you in touch with a grad/student/fauctly member. They always take time to help anyone who is interested in the school.

Q

[Guest Nav_Guy]

What would be a better Masters degree for the Test world, Engineering or an MBA?

-Nav_Guy

[Whitman]

What would be a better Masters degree for the Test world, Engineering or an MBA?

-Nav_Guy

Definitely an MBA--without an advanced business degree, you don't stand a chance of getting into TPS! It's already competitive enough, make sure you set yourself apart and get an MBA.

[gimmeaplane]

Definitely an MBA--without an advanced business degree, you don't stand a chance of getting into TPS! It's already competitive enough, make sure you set yourself apart and get an MBA.

An MS (aero, mech, EE, physics, whatever) means more than an MBA (underwater basket weaving) to the TPS board--an MS is specifically "desired" for engineer applicants. MBAs are better than nothing, though. Both pilots/navs and engineers can get in without a masters (easier for rated dudes to pull that off). There's also a program where they send you to AFIT for a year, you go to TPS for a year, and you wind up with two MS degrees (from both AFIT and TPS).

http://www.edwards.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-070111-025.pdf

[Guest Nav_Guy]

An MS (aero, mech, EE, physics, whatever) means more than an MBA (underwater basket weaving) to the TPS board--an MS is specifically "desired" for engineer applicants. MBAs are better than nothing, though. Both pilots/navs and engineers can get in without a masters (easier for rated dudes to pull that off). There's also a program where they send you to AFIT for a year, you go to TPS for a year, and you wind up with two MS degrees (from both AFIT and TPS).

http://www.edwards.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-070111-025.pdf

I have heard of that program. Do you apply to each independently or is it a one application deal? I am just asking since AFIT seems to be pretty competetive for rated folks as opposed to engineer types.

-Nav_Guy

[gimmeaplane]

I have heard of that program. Do you apply to each independently or is it a one application deal? I am just asking since AFIT seems to be pretty competetive for rated folks as opposed to engineer types.

-Nav_Guy

It's one application--you just need to take the GRE. Only 2 spots a year for AFIT-TPS.

Edited December 11, 2009 by gimmeaplane

[Dupe]

An MS (aero, mech, EE, physics, whatever) means more than an MBA (underwater basket weaving) to the TPS board--an MS is specifically "desired" for engineer applicants. MBAs are better than nothing, though. Both pilots/navs and engineers can get in without a masters (easier for rated dudes to pull that off). There's also a program where they send you to AFIT for a year, you go to TPS for a year, and you wind up with two MS degrees (from both AFIT and TPS).

Let me make it more clear: The TPS board does not give a flying shit about your MBA. For rated applicants, a MS is "desired" but certainly not required. More than half the dudes in my TPS class (including me) did not have a technical master's degree. For engineers, a technical master's is effectively required to get selected.

If you do not genuinely want to go on to the PhD level, then the AFIT-TPS program is a bad deal. It takes you out of flying for two years and gives you a masters on top of the one you'll get from TPS. You will have more work to do at TPS because you will be managing your thesis project on top of every thing else. You'll have to hang around for a few months after TPS to write then defend your thesis. After its all said and done, you will have been out of your airframe for three and a half years then you will return to test the most cutting edge changes to your platform. It will be very difficult for you to have meaningfull input as a tester when you last flew your MDS 3+ years ago.

[Silentcom]

I have a few questions about TPS or planning for TPS that would be great to get cleared up.

1. I'm getting my bachelor's in EE right now, but I want to plan ahead for my master's before I'm done with my undergrad degree. Can someone explain the process of getting an educational delay? I've been searching but have only found bits and pieces thrown around and I want to know more. Mainly, do you give up your assigned AFSC when you do an educational delay?

2. How likely is it to be able to get into AFIT right after college? With the AFIT slot are you required to to serve in some sort of engineering capacity after you graduate from it? Going hand in hand with the previous question, do you have to give up your assigned AFSC if you get an AFIT slot?

3. Does the TPS board want an M.S. or does a M.Eng work as well? I will probably do the M.S. but I was just wondering whether the latter is acceptable or not.

Thanks!

[Muscle2002]

To answer a couple of your questions:

2) I don't know how difficult it is for someone going ROTC/OTS to get an AFIT slot right after college. I do know that at USAFA, we had about 20-25 slots. At the time, I was able to go to a civilian institution (sponsored by AFIT), kept my projected AFSC (92T0), and still went to the same UPT base I had selected originally. Talking to a more recent graduate, they no longer keep the base you chose, but you will still keep your projected AFSC...that is, unless you go non-PQ, etc. If you are a non-rated type, then you were probably already on the road to a 62 type AFSC and so it's a moot point. If not, then unless you washout of UPT/UNT, you're safe from the engineering field.

3) The only official guidance is that you must possess a BS vice BA. I would imagine a Master's of Engineering would be a beneficial thing in your records.

[HeloDude]

3) The only official guidance is that you must possess a BS vice BA. I would imagine a Master's of Engineering would be a beneficial thing in your records.

This is not true as there is MUCH more guidance on what undergrad degrees are acceptable for TPS applications and what are not. For example, a 'B.S. in Aviation Science' will not allow you to apply to TPS. It must either be an engineering degree (engineering technology is specifically prohibited) or a science degree such as Chemistry, Math, Physics, Astronomy, etc. I believe all of this information can be found in the TPS application AFI, if not, it is detailed every year in the official announcement sent to commanders for those who wish to apply.

[Muscle2002]

This is not true as there is MUCH more guidance on what undergrad degrees are acceptable for TPS applications and what are not. For example, a 'B.S. in Aviation Science' will not allow you to apply to TPS. It must either be an engineering degree (engineering technology is specifically prohibited) or a science degree such as Chemistry, Math, Physics, Astronomy, etc. I believe all of this information can be found in the TPS application AFI, if not, it is detailed every year in the official announcement sent to commanders for those who wish to apply.

I was thinking from the macro level (ie BS vs BA) while you were answering from

the micro level (what field of study). You're absolutely correct about required fields of study. The AFI is still under revision. At least it was last time

I checked the TPS website, but the announcement message spells out all that you said plus some additional

degrees that may be acceptable. The announcent also states to

contact TPS if your degree is not listed and want to know if it is "acceptable".

Officially that's true, but applying without a Master's Degree significantly hurts your chances. If you can, get it done.

I would say that depends. My friend who graduated a couple yrs ago stated many only had a bachelors. It really depends on who you are competing against (obviously not something one can know while applying) when you meet the board. If everyone competing on your board has an MS but you, then that will definitely hurt chances, but conversely if no one has one, then you're on more of a level playing field. BL: don't let not having a Masters detract you from applying. You cannot win if you don't play.