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Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) Certificate

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I checked yesterday with the dudes in little rock.. Scheduled for 3 days, checked on the second.  DPE is a good dude, knowledgable CFI's (both herc FTU dudes), nice airplane with garmin glass and Aspen PFD/HSI.. 

2800 out the door...

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2 hours ago, bagasticks said:

I checked yesterday with the dudes in little rock.. Scheduled for 3 days, checked on the second.  DPE is a good dude, knowledgable CFI's (both herc FTU dudes), nice airplane with garmin glass and Aspen PFD/HSI.. 

2800 out the door...

So obviously not the same guys involved in the crash last week?  I thought it was the same outfit.

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Here is a question that maybe somebody can weigh in on, I have been searching for an answer and calling the FAA for weeks with no satisfaction.

I took the written a few days before the deadline back in 2014 expecting to take the checkride well before now.  I recently got hired at Skywest and they bumped my training date to the point that my written will have expired prior to completion of training.  They are willing to send me to a CTP program, but the last think I want to do is take that damned written again!

Somebody had once told me that if you were a current and qualified military pilot, that your ATP written didn't expire so I went digging and found some pretty clear verbiage that essentially allows any current/qualified guy to extend their expiration date (references to 8900.1 and 61.39 are below).

The problem is, when I went to the FSDO, they really had no idea about these paragraphs, so they just said "no" with really no explanation.  I then called the FAA Airmen Certification Branch and, once again, they had no familiarity, so they said they'd call me back, but probably "no".  Again without explanation of the reg or why it didn't apply to me or thousands of guys like me that got in under the wire on the written.  I mean, it even tells them what to write on the written certificate.  It couldn't be any clearer to me.

They did keep mentioning the SFAR 100-2, which, to me, doesn't seem to apply to these regs in any way...just amplifies it.

 

Does anybody have any experience or success with this?  Thanks for your help guys...I really hope that I can get some light on this to help everyone out.

 


(I removed paragraphs that didn't apply)

From 8900.1

5-807    EXTENDING VALIDITY PERIODS OF ATP KNOWLEDGE TEST RESULTS—REFER TO § 61.39. Except under the following conditions for extending the validity of an ATP knowledge test, the FAA does not accept expired knowledge test reports.

C.    U.S. Armed Forces Pilots. For any ATP Certificate, U.S. Armed Forces pilots currently assigned as a flightcrew member in U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test, who have completed the PIC aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the pilot certificate and rating sought, may have the validity of their ATP knowledge test report extended per §    61.39.

D.    Extending Validity Period of the ATP Knowledge Test. If a pilot applicant qualifies for extension of their ATP knowledge test validity period, in accordance with §    61.39, the following will be stamped or typed on the airman’s knowledge test report: “The validity period of this ATP knowledge test form is extended in accordance with the applicable provisions of §    61.39.” Following this statement, the authorizing inspector or examiner will sign, date, and show their current Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) or certificate management office (CMO) assignment.

 

And then from 61.39
(pay close attention to paragraph C)

(b) An applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane type rating may take the practical test with an expired knowledge test only if the applicant passed the knowledge test after July 31, 2014, and is employed:

(1) As a flightcrew member by a part 119 certificate holder conducting operations under parts 125 or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved pilot-in-command training or checking program; or
(2) As a flightcrew member by a part 119 certificate holder conducting operations under part 121 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved initial training program; or

(3) By the U.S. Armed Forces as a flight crewmember in U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test and has completed the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the pilot certificate and rating sought.


(c) An applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate with a rating other than those ratings set forth in paragraph (b) of this section may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that the applicant is employed:

(1) As a flightcrew member by a part 119 certificate holder conducting operations under parts 125 or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved pilot-in-command training or checking program; or
(2) By the U.S. Armed Forces as a flight crewmember in U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test and has completed the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the pilot certificate and rating sought.

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4 hours ago, sorryforpartying said:

I recently got hired at Skywest and they bumped my training date to the point that my written will have expired prior to completion of training.

C.    U.S. Armed Forces Pilots. For any ATP Certificate, U.S. Armed Forces pilots currently assigned as a flightcrew member in U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test

(2) By the U.S. Armed Forces as a flight crewmember in U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test

Not 100% clear on where you are right now--but is the combination of "currently assigned" and "at the time of the practical test" what's getting you?  Are you still "currently assigned as a flight crew member"?

Otherwise, I've no ideas....

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Bottom line: all ATP written exams taken before 1 Aug 14 expire on 31 Jul 16. 61.39 is very specific...you are "An applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating"...so paragraph B does not apply unless you are applying for another rating.

Exception: if you are deployed, you may be able to get the SFAR applied to you.

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The way I read it is para b does apply.  He is an applicant for the atp with a multi engine rating or a type rating so the test can only be extended if he took it after 31 July 2014.  If he didn't have those ratings then he could go to para c.  

   Since he took it before 31 July 2014, is an applicant for an atp, and has a type rating or multi engine class, the test will expire at the normal expiration date and can't be extended under the provisions referenced.  I have heard of folks extending because of being deployed but it sounds like that is not the case. 

Edited by Buenos Diaz
Spelling is hard

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13 hours ago, sorryforpartying said:

Somebody had once told me that if you were a current and qualified military pilot, that your ATP written didn't expire so I went digging and found some pretty clear verbiage that essentially allows any current/qualified guy to extend their expiration date (references to 8900.1 and 61.39 are below).

They did keep mentioning the SFAR 100-2, which, to me, doesn't seem to apply to these regs in any way...just amplifies it.

(c) An applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate with a rating other than those ratings set forth in paragraph (b) of this section may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that the applicant is employed:

(2) By the U.S. Armed Forces as a flight crewmember in U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test and has completed the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the pilot certificate and rating sought.

 

SFAR 100-2 specifically allows for extension of the written test deadline if you were deployed overseas - It doesn't help you.

I've never seen the other portion you quotes, but I think that it is in reference to getting a civilian type rating for a similarly typed Air Force aircraft.  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense since there is no practical test to have a type added to an existing license if you are USAF qualified, but that's the only thing I can think of.

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15 hours ago, sorryforpartying said:

 (c) An applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate with a rating other than those ratings set forth in paragraph (b) of this section may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that the applicant is employed:

I can't say I agree with you, ThreeHoler, but I can't really come up with a coherent interpretation... Para c is pretty clearly talking about only an ATP certificate. So if it were to apply only to military pilots with other than a multi-engine airplane rating...then who DOES it apply to? Helo and single engine guys? And for what purpose would that be in there? It doesn't make any sense at all.

I know that it USED to be the case (for decades), that mil dudes ATP written didn't expire. And that is what I think the intention of this is, but it sure is worded confusingly.

The SFAR is a whole separate issue...and unfortunately in my case my deployment orders ended about a month too soon.

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23 hours ago, BADFNZ said:

So obviously not the same guys involved in the crash last week?  I thought it was the same outfit.

Same guys.. They're just a couple c130 ip's, CFI types, with access to planes. They still have the Seneca.. You basically fly the profile with them and then you check with a local DPE.

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I would avoid Accessible Aviation at all costs - I found out the hard way after paying the $3250 non-refundable fee. Plane was in pieces when we arrived and wasted the first two and a half days waiting for it to be put back together. Ground instruction was non-existent and Carl was more interested in his personal business than teaching us. Lots of wasted time. When I was finally ready for the checkride, the plane was grounded due to mechanical issues. I gave up after my third attempt trying to reschedule. Three guys from my unit have had the same experience... all paid up front with no ATP to show for it. There have also been multiple recent ATP checkride failures out of this program. Definitely not worth the frustration and risk. 

Highly recommend Downtown Aviation for the ATP. Solid program and instructors. Finished in a day and a half, $1900 out the door, including DPE fee.

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Anyone have any gouge on places in the Anchorage area? I have a decent chunk of leave set aside and will be visiting family in the area mid July time frame.    

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Sky Warriors in Pensacola no longer takes the GI Bill. Not sure what their prices are now, but I know they recently raised them. They have a DPE "Bob" who's a former Air Force shoe clerk with the standard sob story that his vision was too bad to become a pilot. Word on the street is that he's a bit tougher on USAF guys as a result, but they do have several other mil-friendly examiners.  

If you're looking for something in the Pensacola area, they seem like an OK group. Their scheduling is a train wreck and avoid Bob, but otherwise good to go.

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Heard from more than person Bob is a terrible DPE - if anyone goes there, reschedule checkrides until you don't have Bob.

  • Upvote 1

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There has been more than one ATP check ride failure at Skywarrier at KPNS.  Don't know if it was the DPE referenced above and don't know of the circumstances in each, but the gouge is to go elsewhere or proceed with caution. 

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On June 20, 2016 at 2:57 PM, ARAMP1 said:

There has been more than one ATP check ride failure at Skywarrier at KPNS.  Don't know if it was the DPE referenced above and don't know of the circumstances in each, but the gouge is to go elsewhere or proceed with caution. 

Heard the same from my buddy who did it there. He passed but said it was the hardest flight of his life.  He got everything through his commercial before he came into the AF so he's not just whining.  They actually called me the other day to schedule me because I had inquired in the past.  Any place proactively trying to fill ATP slots at this point must be bad.  Glad I used Downtown.

Edited by flyaf05
  • Upvote 2

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Recommend Navy Annapolis Flight Center, knocked it out over a weekend. Frank Kennedy (ret USMC) owns the joint, does all pre-check instruction. Good guy, but an SOB to fly with. He'll have you ready for the check ride though, it was the easiest part of the process. His go-to DPE is a great guy, pleasure to fly with. Schedule is pretty packed until 31 July, but he may be able to work with you.

Additional details:

Plane is a Piper Geronimo. Cost is variable, depending on when you're ready to check (in the ballpark of $3K).

Plane - $240/Hr

Instruction - $45/Hr

Check - $450

Edited by Spoo
Added details

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Crazy Carl is also running a part 141 operation. You may have some "getting a refund" leverage by offering to take your issues to the FAA

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On 6/24/2016 at 10:36 PM, flyaf05 said:

Any place proactively trying to fill ATP slots at this point must be bad.  

 

True.

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