C-17 Globemaster vs C-130 Hercules

[Tunes3]

The biggest difference in the mission is Intra vs Inter-theater airlift. The 17s will bring stuff to and from the theater while Herks are in the theater taking bullets and beans to the troops. The biggest satisfaction in flying a Herk is knowing that by taking the army's stuff from town to town in the air, they dont have to risk getting blown up in a convoy. 17s tend to go TDY more shipping stuff in the US and around the world. The Herk takes it to the smaller fields once it gets to the main hubs.

I love flying Tac airlift and the J has all the cool toys of the C17s with the mission of a Herk. Corpus was a ton of fun, live on the island if you can. The T44C offered a good mix of Navy style training with the avionics of a T1.

Just remember...at the end of the day, jets suck and props screw.

[PirateAF]

Obviously there are a lot of 130 dudes on this forum. I guess I'll speak up for the "pretty boy" C-17.

When you're deployed at the two stages you will fly the 17 as a tactical airlifter. I've logged 10 minutes sorties in OIF carrying everything you can imagine - including the 50K MRAPS (we usually carry two at a time). I've landed in the dirt in OEF and airdropped bullets on the side of mountains too, just like a 130. While the 130 does have a shorter takeoff and land capability (2500-3000? I believe compared to our 3500), the 17 is certainly NOT relegated to 10,000 feet long "AMC hubs" as you might be led to believe (that's more of a KC-10/135 and C-5 thing). Yes, the 130 is more tac air, but that's only due to it's nature of being smaller. I suppose I could argue the CASA-235 is more tactical than the 130. The 17 does 300 ft contour LLs, NVG airdrop, etc.

There is some crossflow especially between the 17 and the 130J.

130 - You'll find yourself in more varied locations in the AOR. You just might deploy TO the AOR. You'll be trained in airdrop; you will be a tactical airlifter. You'll deploy a lot.

17 - You'll deploy to the stages for 120 around every 2 years. You'll fly tactical then, but while at home flying missions you'll be more strat. If you get a slot, you'll be trained in airdrop. You'll air refuel.

I certainly respect the 130 and it's many variants. I wish we had an AC/MC17.

Good luck with your choice and avoiding a UAV. If you go for the 17 and want the airdrop training, try to get CHS, TCM, HIK, or Elmo.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Wow...a whole bunch of Herk replies...

Regardless, here's my $.02...and from a C-17 perspective. My only C-130 experience is working w/ Linda at ETAR OSX, so I'll keep the comparisons simple since I don't claim an expert on the Herk.

Tac Airlift vs. Strat Airlift....this is and has always been a in ridicuous argument. While we do not go to every little LZ in the theater, we do go to every little LZ in theater. Get it. If the airlift requirement to LZ "X" was 60K, you guys wouldn't be used. However, for the amount of airlift you guys do - it's suitable for the situation. Bottom line, the C-17 is DEFINATELY more Strategic Airlift (moving big shit numbers into theater) than Tac lift (moving small shit numbers) around theater....however, don't get all spun up around the fact of the word "TACTICAL"....such as Tactical Flying, because we ALL do that.

We can pop in at 502100 lbs and stop 3500' - Take off in about 3000'. We can airdrop up to 110000K. We have a continious 1A1 alert backing up the POTUS and JCS. We have Antartica. We have inter-theater medical alerts, the list goes on and on...

1.) Airdrop. Been there, done that. OEF drops on our last deployment. I do acknowledge the fact that the C-130 is the work whore of the OEF AD mission, you guys are extremely limited in that capacity. On our 11 Sept 2007 drop, we pushed 38 CDS over 5 DZ...2 were "hot". You guys do the same of course, just not the amount per pass capability.

2.) Money. It's all coming to the C-17 and C-130J model. Period.

3.) Location. Per capita, you cannot beat the C-17 locations. Try.

4.) Deployment. Shit, I'm glad that after 10 days I'm home w/ my wife. However, I've also been gone 310 out of the past 365, or that's what PEX shows.

There are plenty of threads comparing and contrasting airframes. Unless you have been flying BOTH airframes and can compare, then you don't have a swingin dick to compare. I think the C-17 is a great assignment. You think the C-130 is great. Perfect.

Anyone want to compare and contrast....I'm 3 inches off of the floor in a pushup position.

Swizzle,

I flew from Domascus, Syria to Travis AFb w/ 2 aerial refuelings...19 hours of flight time....sucked ass...

Pirate, great reply.

Edited for Pirate comment

Edited November 11, 2008 by C-21 Pilot

[MD]

Related: Does the C-5 do any airdrop like the 141/17 did/does? Or airlift only?

[Clayton Bigsby]

C-5 airdrop mission was discontinued. They used to have a SOLL group out of Dover...

C-21 and Pirate, great replies. Only thing I'd add is that while the C-17 does go to quite a few of the smaller off-the-beaten-path places like the Herk (I've got my dirt qual too), it just doesn't stay the night there like the Herk does. It's not always back to a 5-star place though, if you want that w/ 'defined AMC enroute network' go C-5/KC-10. No argument that the Herks are doing the majority of the BFE stuff, but it's not like they have an exclusive monopoly on it either.

Native, if it isn't obvious already, if you choose herks you get to go through life with a ginormous chip on your shoulder. This 'tac v strat' bullshit that's been going on forever and ever is fvcking pathetic.

[Shut up 'n color]

Just like someone said above, you really need to consider location....at least that's what I did. You need to analyze your own way of life and the fact that C130 locations suck, that's no problem b/c you'll be deployed all the time anyway. Doing the "cool" tactical crazy flying is fun, but just like anything else, it gets old, and before you know it the main objective is to just not get Q3'd (for all UPT guys that means "hooking" a ride...any ride, not only checks). I personally think there's nothing wrong with flying from point A to point B using a stick and a HUD, traveling the world and seeing cool places. No matter what you fly you'll see the AOR, plenty of it. And not to get too political, but with our new POTUS select, I think we'll all have jobs as we "pull out of OIF!"

Another thing to consider (not sure about C130 manning), but the C17 manning status is about 113% with efforts to shrink that to 99% sending people to U28s and RC12s. Chucktown and other bases currently has copilots PCSing b/c there is a push to fill these new airframes. So expect less C17s to drop in UPT if they havn't already. It may get to a point for a while where if you dont put if first you wont get it.

[TacAirCoug]

I am a C-130 guy. I think C-130's rock. I think Herks are better than Barney. I have a ginormous chip on my shoulder, BFD. Look, the fact of the matter is everybody is doing some cool shit over there. Right now, if you're an airdrop guy in the -17, you're going to do some airdrops. Right now, if you're at Bagram or Al Udeid in a 130, you're going to do some airdrops. Everybody else is just a glorified bus driver. Five years from now, who knows? Have you heard anyone here bash their own airframe? No. Everybody loves the horse they're riding, so the lesson here is this: learn as much as you can about all of your choices, pick one, and I'm betting you won't look back.

Barney sucks.

[LJ Driver]

however, don't get all spun up around the fact of the word "TACTICAL"....such as Tactical Flying, because we ALL do that.

Define "tactical flying", because not really. You might do tactical landings, occasionally. You don't do much tactical flying.

We can pop in at 502100 lbs and stop 3500' - Take off in about 3000'. We can airdrop up to 110000K. We have a continious 1A1 alert backing up the POTUS and JCS. We have Antartica. We have inter-theater medical alerts, the list goes on and on...

When the hell was the last time this happened? It simply isn't needed more than once a year, maybe. And I know that you can't drop 110,000,000 pounds of shit

1.) Airdrop. Been there, done that. OEF drops on our last deployment. I do acknowledge the fact that the C-130 is the work whore of the OEF AD mission, you guys are extremely limited in that capacity. On our 11 Sept 2007 drop, we pushed 38 CDS over 5 DZ...2 were "hot". You guys do the same of course, just not the amount per pass capability.

Please son, don't talk to C-130 guys about AD. We own airdrop. We do it more often and we do it better. Again, 38 cds bundles in one mission is VERY unusual. And congrats for getting a hot DZ, I haven't ever AD'd to a cold one, and I assure you my number of passes are higher by an order of magnitude...

2.) Money. It's all coming to the C-17 and C-130J model. Period.

Wrong. SOF is getting anything and everything they want. Including J's.

3.) Location. Per capita, you cannot beat the C-17 locations. Try.

How about Hurlburt, Duke, Eglin, Albuquerque, Kadena, Mildenhall, Yakota, Ramstein? Not bad when you think about it.

Anyone want to compare and contrast....I'm 3 inches off of the floor in a pushup position.

Swizzle,

WTF?

[XL0901]

Another thing to consider (not sure about C130 manning), but the C17 manning status is about 113% with efforts to shrink that to 99% sending people to U28s and RC12s. Chucktown and other bases currently has copilots PCSing b/c there is a push to fill these new airframes. So expect less C17s to drop in UPT if they havn't already. It may get to a point for a while where if you dont put if first you wont get it.

Along those lines...class 08-14 @ XL had 9 AD C-17s in their drop (Rumor...The Flt/CC had to trade away one just to give the bottom person something else so they didn't get their top choice). I think 08-15 had 7 or so. 09-01 had 4 AD -17s. 09-02 had 2. Not to discourage anyone, but they aren't handing them out like they used to.

If you decide not to go to CRP in hopes of a C-17...just realize they aren't handing out 8-9 at a time anymore.

[FlyinGrunt]

that's NGP . . . unless you want to fly for Chataqua(sp?).

hehe.

[FourFans]

Concur with most of the above.

Alright. No one ever says it but they should.

If you have doubts about your stick and rudder skills, PLEASE stay out of the herk.

I know that ain't the PC thing to say, but I don't care. I'm sick of having 'those' ACs and IPs in the squadron. You know, the ones the schedulers have unwritten rules about flying with seasoned CPs. Seriously. That AF won't wash out the ones that need to be washed out. If there is one airplane in the that is unforgiving to bad rudder riders, it's the herk. If you don't think you've got it, sack up and admit it.

As for the rest of the decision, pick the mission not the airframe. You'll love whatever airplane you end up in. Lots of good info above as well as in the prior ops IPs, in your squadron.

From my point of view, it seems like you can go everywhere from the herk but it difficult to get into the herk from somewhere else. If you want a lot of options after your first assignment (NSA, AFSOC, crossflow, etc) go for the herk. The Air Force is always in need of good prop and rudder pilots, even if it's not always advertised that way.

FF

[Guest lovek]

Ok, to the OP... I'm a C-130H1 guy, and as you can see, alot of C-130 guys have a chip on their shoulder.

Here are some of my thoughts.....

The Airplanes (Cargo models only):

- The legacy C-130: Was mostly designed in the 50s... produced in the 70s (except for the engines and some other upgrades which were designed in the 70s)... There's alot lacking in the plane for "human factors design". It's slow, low, and doesn't refuel (which is both good and bad). It has 4 people up front... (which is good or bad depending on the situation). It has props, which have many more moving parts and is more complicated.... I'm not convinced it's better for short field landings, though... after the design of the "blown flaps" or whatever the C-17 has. The C-130 fleet, as a whole, are like frankensteins... we have C-130Es, H1, H2s, H2.5s, H3s, Js (and I you need a seperate qual for each model) then there's the other variants of the herk... ACs, ECs, HCs, LCs, MCs, WC - 130s.... and variants inside each vairant (if that makes any sense).

- The C-17: Was designed in the late 80s/early 90s. Was designed after "human factors engineering". It can fly high, fast, and is air refulable(which is both good and bad). When I flew the C-130AMP sim, my SA was 10x greater than the legacy C-130s, I imagine your SA is just as much in the C-17. 95% of what the "slick" C-130s can do, the C-17 can do better (I know this sentence will cause controversy on this message board, but even as a herk guy, I believe it).... the only problem is, most C-17 crews are focused on Strat airlift (as mentioned earlier), so most aircrews don't take advantage of their toy (because they don't have the beans/training/requirements).... alot more of the C-17 I can't talk about, because I don't know it. But since this aircraft was designed in a later era, I believe the airplane can do almost everything better than the legacy C-130 airplane.... I just don't think many C-17 crews are trained to do the types of missions/flying every C-130 crew does.

The Mission:

- The C-130: Absolutely awesome or absolutely terrible.... it just depends. 4 months on 4 months off to a medium security prison (you'll know what I mean when you've visited the Deid, or some other OIF bases).... well, it gets tiring fast. Most of the stuff in Iraq... at least the times I was there, wasn't very "C-130 specific".... there were large built up runways/airfields. I don't really know what it was like in 2003, but I've heard stories... the herk was needed then. I've never been to Afghanistan or much of Africa so I can't tell you much about that. But those are things the C-130 was designed for (but I don't know cause I've never been). I'm beginning to experience an overseas base, which absolutely rocks.... great off station missions, great exotic locations, great people... pretty much great everything. Right now, I love my job. At my previous stateside C-130 base... not so much. Of course, this is all very short sighted.... we could be doing things completely different in different regions of the world in 4 years.

- The C-17: I have no idea... part of me thinks it's 1)"gear up" then 7 seconds later 2)"auto pilot on" then 16 hours later 3) 1 ILS to a full stop 4)collect massive per diem and tax free for the month 5) complain about hotels/meals in some fancy location 6)repeat.... but I honestly have no idea.

The location:

- C-130s: some very good places, some not-so-good places

- C-17s: I can't think of a bad location

-----

I'm sure you can get more info from everyone else, but that's some of my perspective about the herk. I love the (NON-OIF) C-130 mission and it's a good community. But I wish I flew a C-130J C-17 JCA newer aircraft (but I'm a minority, most legacy herk guys like the aircraft). I wish we had people on here that flew the legacy C-130s and also the C-17... I know they exist.... I'd really like to hear their thoughts.

[Butters]

- The C-17: I have no idea... part of me thinks it's 1)"gear up" then 7 seconds later 2)"auto pilot on" then 16 hours later 3) 1 ILS to a full stop 4)collect massive per diem and tax free for the month 5) complain about hotels/meals in some fancy location 6)repeat.... but I honestly have no idea.

You forgot.. 7)Good looking and 8)hot girls that want to bang you every time they see you flying it.

Just remember...at the end of the day, jets suck and props screw.

Yea, they screw.... Guys!

[busdriver]

I feel left out of the poo flinging, so I'll add this...

If you can't hover, you're queer.

Go helos, you'll sleep better at night knowing that you are a superior pilot, better looking and over all a better human being than those stuck wing weirdos.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I haven't flown the C-17, but I have flown other airframes (C-21 and UH-1). Like everything else, there's good and bad about an airplane. The legacy Herk guys that grew up in the airplane and know nothing else can't speak from an objective viewpoint about other aircraft. Likewise for C-17 guys that haven't flown anything else. Those people are probably absolutely convinced that there's nothing better than what they are flying. For example, I'm going to move on to the C-130J in the future, and I've gotten plenty of comments about how the J sucks, people that fly the J are gay, it's stupid to have an airplane without a navigator or engineer, and so on. But I realize that the people that say those comments haven't known any other type of flying, so flying a 3-person airplane with glass is absolutely foreign. To them, they see it as "doing it the easy/lazy way", rather than recognizing that the airplane doesn't do everything for you, it just provides you with more information.

I look at it this way....these days, you won't find many crews that WANT to fly a non-TCAS bird...TCAS provides a lot of info about the traffic situation around you. The J and C-17 are a lot like that in that the airplane provides incredible SA to the pilots, and it's moved beyond 1940s technology that requires an individual person to throw each switch to get an engine started or configure the airplane.

If you're having a hard time trying to decide what you want to do, look more at the mission rather than the airplane itself. If you want to do more strategic airlift (cross oceans, travel the world) then go C-17s. If you want to deploy to a location and support the user, go Herks. That would be about the best advice I have.

Locations-wise, the Herk has some so-so and not-so-good locations...Dyess, Pope come to mind. They aren't terrible locations (like Clovis), but not all that great either. Then we have some above average locations...Little Rock isn't too bad. Cheyenne is good if you like the outdoors, but it's not a huge town. Colorado Springs should stand up soon, and that'll be a prime location, as are Germany and Yokota.

The C-17 community, hands-down, has the best locations of any AMC asset. Charleston, McChord, Dover, Travis, Hickam, Elmendorf and McGuire...not all are dream locations (McGuire, Dover), but at least they are an easy drive to some cool cities. So take that into consideration as well. Deployment-wise, you will be gone on deployment often in the Herk community...not quite as often in the C-17, although you will be on the road a lot. Having flown C-21s and gone on trips, I'd rather be on a several-day TDY than on a 120-day deployment. That's just me. And that's my .02.

I feel left out of the poo flinging, so I'll add this...

If you can't hover, you're queer.

Go helos, you'll sleep better at night knowing that you are a superior pilot, better looking and over all a better human being than those stuck wing weirdos.

Then there's those of us who can hover AND fly fixed-wing aircraft!

[XL0901]

that's NGP . . . unless you want to fly for Chataqua(sp?).

hehe.

My bad...NGP it is

[PirateAF]

Concur with most of the above.

Alright. No one ever says it but they should.

If you have doubts about your stick and rudder skills, PLEASE stay out of the herk.

I know that ain't the PC thing to say, but I don't care. I'm sick of having 'those' ACs and IPs in the squadron. You know, the ones the schedulers have unwritten rules about flying with seasoned CPs. Seriously. That AF won't wash out the ones that need to be washed out. If there is one airplane in the that is unforgiving to bad rudder riders, it's the herk. If you don't think you've got it, sack up and admit it.

Well we don't want bad pilots in the 17 community either. The 130 stick and rudder skills requirement that FourFans is citing (usually every other approach in the 130 when one of those awesome propellers has quit on you) translates directly into the 17 air refueling stick skills requirement. Since you have to be able to air refuel the jet as an AC, we keep our "special needs" ACs to a minimum.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Kind of funny how nobody's remembering that in the -17 you could end up at Altus at some point...not every barney base is idyllic. I've heard quite a few gripes about McGuire and Dover too...

[Karl Hungus]

Kind of funny how nobody's remembering that in the -17 you could end up at Altus at some point...not every barney base is idyllic. I've heard quite a few gripes about McGuire and Dover too...

What's so bad about McGuire and Dover? The location itself or leadership? Beats the crap out of Dyess/ Pope/ Little Rock IMHO, not to mention a number of other CONUS bases.

[Guest Boom]

Well we don't want bad pilots in the 17 community either. The 130 stick and rudder skills requirement that FourFans is citing (usually every other approach in the 130 when one of those awesome propellers has quit on you) translates directly into the 17 air refueling stick skills requirement. Since you have to be able to air refuel the jet as an AC, we keep our "special needs" ACs to a minimum.

You guys as a community suck at air refueling. I think I'm qualified to make that statement. As a seasoned IP, yeah you could do pretty well air refueling. Basic AC? Forget about it.

To the OP, fly whatever you want. Once you're a senior Captain to Lt Col you'll be crossflowing to a tanker in your future.

[sputnik]

What's so bad about McGuire and Dover? The location itself or leadership? Beats the crap out of Dyess/ Pope/ Little Rock IMHO, not to mention a number of other CONUS bases.

It's a to each their own kind of thing. Within the C17 world, those two (and Altus of course) are probably the least popular. While McGuire currently has amusing leadership issues, many of us don't like the locations. In general I think it's true that we have great, if not the best, locations. Certainly better than slicks--outside Germany.

To the OP, fly whatever you want. Once you're a senior Captain to Lt Col you'll be crossflowing to a tanker in your future.

Why do you say that?

[Guest AirTime]

What about avionics and overall SA? I would assume the 17 has the advantage for SA?

[Whitman]

If you want to go CV-22s at some point, why not go for CV-22s now? Pipeline is open. They're dropping at Rucker fairly regularly. Its not the best way to go if you want to fly for the airlines someday, or if you really want to fly C-17s or C-130s, but generally when I hear a guy say "Can I go to _____ later?", I always ask, "Why not now?"

Ya but you'd make a lot more money flying executives around in the commercial V-22. They won't have much experience to choose from when they're looking for guys to fly this thing if it gets certified in 2011. BACC has already received 80 orders for it! At least this one is pressurized!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell/Agusta_BA609

[Guest Boom]

Why do you say that?

My base has a lot of crossflow guys.

Wing King - C-141/C-17

Vice Wing - C-141/C-17

OG - C-17/KC-10

Sq/CC - C-141/C-17

DO - C-21/KC-135

My squadron has three people who crossflowed from C-5's, two people who crossflowed from C-17's, and one person who crossflowed from C-130's. On the flip side in the past two years we've sent a few people to C-21's, one person to C-130J's, and one person to C-17's. All of our Majors in my squadron with the exception of two are crossflows.

[Tunes3]

Air Time,

I can't speak for the other varients, but the J gives the pilots AMAZING SA. Between the Nav Radar display, CAPS, DIG Map and the HUD, there are plenty of toys to keep you in the loop. There are tools to help you locate your position in relation to the DZ, LZs, formation positioning, draw avoidance areas over the white line that is your route, and ways to alter your route with accurate time calculations. Lets just say, every day I find something else to love about my plane.