Guest johannagain Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Question for the Airlift folks. Does flying in Iraqi (Or Afghani) Airspace, and not landing, count as an O-1 sorty? Is it airframe specific (ie; Would it count as O-1 for one MWS and not for another)? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I'm not airlift, but I don't see why the policy would be different. For us, O-1 (combat) time is logged anytime you cross into the AOR. We fighters obviously don't land but we all log combat time. O-2 (combat support) is logged when you takeoff but don't make it out there (air abort, mission CNX, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C17AFPilot Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Yes - even if you dont land in the AOR, the time you spend overflying does count as combat time and can be logged as a combat sortie (per the forms guide) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Driver Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 It's actually the entire sortie that is logged as O-1 time. That's how the B-2 boys chaulked up 40+ hours of combat time in one sortie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Right, all I was getting at is that if you never reach the AOR, the entire sortie is logged as O-2. If you touch the AOR, air abort, then RTB, the entire sortie is logged as combat time. Regardless, it's sortie count (not sortie time) that counts towards an air medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerkDerka Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 To clarify the AOR terminology and time vs mission: Any flying done withing the CENTAF AOR outside hostile airspace is O-2. Anything that penetrates (sts) CENTAF-directed hostile airspace is O-1 time. For time. If you hit the hostile zone and go home it's all O-1. However, for any stops outside of the box, that leg is logged as O-2. For AM purposes, you have to at least hit the border to get the 15 points. HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 This brings up a good point - it seems like things are done incorrectly. If I take off 30 minutes prior to sunset and fly a 2.0, I log 1.5 of night time. If I have my nogs on for 30 minutes of that time, I log 0.5 of NVG. Eventhough it was a night and NVG sortie sortie (granted that's an AFORMS thing and not reflected in the 781 or flight records) I don't log the entire amount of time as night or NVG. By the same rational, just because a sortie is logged as combat doesn't necessarily mean all the time is O-1. If it takes me 45 minutes to get to Iraq from base X and 45 minutes to get back, my 6.0 sortie should actually only be 4.5 of O-1 time. That's not the way I've ever seen it done, though. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreudianSlip Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 I always thought this was silly too but I bet there were people double dipping medals. I bet people were logging O-1 time for their actual in the box time and O-2 for all the other time. Then using the same mission number for an Air Medal and an Aerial Achievement Medal. Some of our Es (who need medals for points and are excellent at interpreting the rules for their benifit) tried to do this and it didn't fly. I've always been told if you reach the Box that day, its all O-1, if not then O-2. Silly, yes; surprised thats how we do it, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baseops.Net Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 PREFACE: This is not an attempt to start a flame war... Example: A C-17 takes off from Ramstein or Frankfurt (after an relaxing evening in a hotel or at the bar) -- flies 8 hours to Afghanistan, lands, refuels, then flies 8 hours back to Germany and LOGS 16 HOURS OF O-1 TIME - most of which transpired while flying over central Europe & outside of "the box". Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest johannagain Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 ^^^ According to what's posted, that's perfectly legit. For AM purposes, it's the sorties, not the hours, so it's pretty irrelevant. The only time that'd come into play, is if someone wanted to have bragging rights to "x" amount of O-1 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Originally posted by Baseops.Net: Example: A C-17 takes off from Ramstein or Frankfurt.....and LOGS 16 HOURS OF O-1 TIME Thoughts? Although that's how it's done, I don't think it's right -- for fighters or heavies. That's the point I was getting at. Originally posted by johannagain: The only time that'd come into play, is if someone wanted to have bragging rights to "x" amount of O-1 hours.True, but it's exactly bragging rights that most guys are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergman Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Originally posted by Toro: True, but it's exactly bragging rights that most guys are looking for. Which is really too bad. I almost feel guilty for orbiting in a -135 and getting the same medal dudes in F-105s and F-4s had to go "down town" and fend off SA-2s to get. [ 14. July 2005, 22:03: Message edited by: Bergman ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFM this Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Sheepishly, I have a tough time describing why it is that I wear my AMs with as much pride as I do. I didn't to anything spectacular or heroic. Sure, I felt a little wary going where I was sent. I learned. A LOT. But I came home every night to a hot shower and usually an AC'd tent. It was when I got a glimpse of the real action figures that my outlook changed. Three in particular who began their FINAL trip home in my solemn Battleherc on a moonless night. At that point all the faceless numbers hit home. I wear my AM's as a reminder that maybe my small bit part helped someone else who put a lot more on the line than I. Someday, I may get called to put my money where my mouth is and finish paying them off (my AM's). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheBurt Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 I was laying over last week in beautiful Dayton Ohio, I had the hotel van take me to the Air Force museum. In a display case next to the snack bar they had several desert flight suits on display, one of them had navigator's wings and the plaque read, "flight suit of Capt. xxxxx, she was awarded the DFC while flying a KC-135 during a rescue mission over Iraq." I guess I don't know the story, did the KC-135 fly low level and fend off the bad guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rainman A-10 Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by heloguy: According to his version it was the heroic actions of the A-10's that saved this pilot. Talking with the pave guys on the mission, the -10's didn't even come under the cloud deck that was there. Excellent point. Whoever told you that story was either being kind to the A-10 guys or you are being polite. I can verify this much...No, they didn't go under the weather. No, they didn't get shot at. What they did do was stay above the weather, threat reacting to RWR that was extraneous or out of range and they provided better coordinates for the Pave Low guys who were going to the wrong place. These were not coordinates they got from being eyes on the survivor (also a former Hog guy) but from comparing DF cuts to the sets of coordinates passed down from the JSRC. Sandy 1 got a Silver Star for that mission and sat between Hillary Clinton and Hank Aaron at the State of the Union address. Yes, I said he did not go into the threat, did not go below the weather and did not get shot at and he did get a slver star and a seat next to Hammerin' Hank and he was promoted to Lt Col BTZ. No one worth a sh!t in the A-10 community was proud of that act. It is, however, a perfect example of exactly what I am talking about. A tanker guy gets a DFC and the helo guy gets a pat on the back for the same CSAR durning OIF. An A-10 guy gets a Silver Star for a CSAR in OAF and never had eyes on the survivor. I'm not sure what my point is except you can't judge a guy's combat performance by the medals on his chest and the whole medal game is never going to be a fair fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by TheBurt: did the KC-135 fly low level and fend off the bad guys? No...they pushed about 40 miles north from one of the north tanker tracks (Dog North?) and close to the Baghdad Super MEZ to support fighters that were working the F-18 shootdown near Karbala. As far as I know, nobody else involved in that operation (two guys in my old squadron were the initial OSCs for that search...) were awarded *anything*. That's okay...at least they're not eating as much crow as the B-1 crew that were awarded DFCs for "killing Saddam" on a TST tasking. One of the guys who was on that crew apparently was awarded his DFC while flying T-6s at Moody (and after Saddam was found alive-and-well). Reportedly the Squadron Commanders briefed everyone to not laugh when the citation was read! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rainman A-10 Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by Bergman: That's exactly my point! All too often the medals go to the people whose squadrons have the best awards/decs shop not the people who really deserve them. Some commanders use the number and quality of medals as a yardstick for their own leadership performance in combat. Things can get our of control when that happens. Most of the words in a medal write up are a joke. Medals are a great way to reward guys but the write ups get blown out of proportion to justify the hardware. It's no big deal unless the guy getting the medal starts believing he actually did everything it says he did. Some guys can't settle for being proud of what they really did, which was probably pretty sh!t hot on its own but maybe not good enough for the medal without a little Hollywood thrown in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rotorhead Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 I went to a dining in one time hosted by a 2 star who was a Sandy pilot in Vietnam. Chest full of medals. Then in walked a just-pinned-on major, who sported SUBSTANTIALLY more medals than the general. The youngster's career was a C-21 tour, C-5 Dover, C-5 Altus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 This is nothing new... Recall this piece, written by a USAF fighter pilot who had recently returned from an exchange tour. He posted it on Col Hackworth's website circa '99 while he was in ACSC, and relates the situation regarding medals during ALLIED FORCE: Then some of my close fighter brethren relayed to me the medal frenzy - it went something like this: If you supported the operation from Missouri, England or Aviano and you're a LtCol - you get a Bronze Star. If you saw a Surface to Air missile in flight - you apply for a DFC. If you threat reacted - you're a shoe-in. Each wing gets a Silver Star to distribute - What, a ****ing lottery for a Silver Star? My buds told me it became fighter wing versus fighter wing versus bomber wing to see which wing commander could win the most Kosovo Olympic Gold. You either jumped on the team bandwagon or you were considered against it. It further inbred worse since it was primarily an Air Force show - therefore our LtCols with their Bronze Stars could outperform the other services when competing for those hallowed joint jobs - You Gotta Be Shitting Me! The service with the motto "Integrity in all we do" is mortaging its dignity to promote its manufactured self image. Sorry this litany is so long - I'd love to see an article comparing all the sorties of WWII - pilot KIA in WWII - to the DFC ratio of WWII and then compared to the Kosovo debacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baseops.Net Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 How about the C-17s that all received DFCs for their high-altitude airdrops in Iraq - in a supposed "medium-threat environment"? It must help when you are carrying CNN news crews on board (during your "combat" airdrops)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerkDerka Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 How about when OEF first kicked off and the C-17 guys were getting DFCs for doing the Barney's first dirt assaults, while the Herks were doing them every single day. HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thebronze Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 I heard that a -135 crew got DFC's for tanking a couple of Brit jets that were about to run out of gas. They had to descend to like 7K to tank them, in *gasp* Iraq! So basically, the crew got DFC's for "doing their job"... Nice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rainman A-10 Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Don't think about it. I was told yesterday that none of my guys are eligible for the Iraqi Campaign Medal. I'm confused. The real air war lasted about 3 weeks. We flew 1000 sorties during that time period. WTFO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Originally posted by Rainman A-10: I was told yesterday that none of my guys are eligible for the Iraqi Campaign Medal. I'm confused. The real air war lasted about 3 weeks. We flew 1000 sorties during that time period. WTFO? Chicken, beef, same-same. Guys from my squadron who flew during the shock-and-awe portion of the war, but went home prior to 30 days after 17 March, aren't eligible either. What a f*cking joke. Guys who are over there now flying "Operation Noble Baghdad" can get it, but those who flew back when the Hadjis were actually shooting back *don't* get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rainman A-10 Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Roger. You can get it without dropping a bomb or shooting a bullet or having a single thing shot at you. On the other hand, you could get shot down or take battle damage and not get it. Like I said, best not to think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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