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13 minutes ago, MTC said:

Nobody should have zero s to give.  If that's the case you need to exit service.  Let's end this narrative.  I get your point, and I hear this around the sq's, but as a community let's describe it in a more accurate manner, which fortunately is also more positive.  It will set the example to the younger guys in a more positive and accurate way.

BS. I have zero fucks to give for active duty asshattery, but plenty for the mission.  Choke yourself about this positive narrative BS; the world isn’t all roses. 

Edited by SurelySerious
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12 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

BS. I have zero s to give for active duty asshattery, but plenty for the mission.  Choke yourself about this positive narrative BS; the world isn’t all roses. 

Exactly my point.  Not sure why so angry.

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11 minutes ago, MTC said:

Exactly my point.  Not sure why so angry.

That’s not what you said. 

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9 hours ago, MTC said:

Exactly my point.  Not sure why so angry.

Words matter, I should’ve clarified “zero f$$$ to give” about the admin BS but will give their left nut to ensure the young guys are trained and equipped to go fly the mission. 

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Bringing it back to our circle....can confirm BPZ is going away.   The upcoming March O-5 board will remain with traditional 2BPZ, 1BPZ, IPZ, APZ but expect guidance from HAF/A1 shortly thereafter if not sooner.  

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1 hour ago, celtic020 said:

Bringing it back to our circle....can confirm BPZ is going away.   The upcoming March O-5 board will remain with traditional 2BPZ, 1BPZ, IPZ, APZ but expect guidance from HAF/A1 shortly thereafter if not sooner.  

Just saw that this board was being pushed to May in order to get rid of BPZ/APZ

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14 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Just saw that this board was being pushed to May in order to get rid of BPZ/APZ

Dang — they’re actioning this quickly!  I’m IPZ 2020....don’t know if/how it affects the promotion rates.   Haven’t thought that far ahead but overall, I feel it’s a good move for the Air Force and will get more aviators promoted.  

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3 hours ago, celtic020 said:

I feel it’s a good move for the Air Force and will get more aviators promoted.  

1IPZ or 5IPZ?

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5 hours ago, pawnman said:

Just saw that this board was being pushed to May in order to get rid of BPZ/APZ

So to quote the venerable Lloyd Christmas, ‘so you’re saying there’s a chance’.

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38 minutes ago, Bigred said:

So to quote the venerable Lloyd Christmas, ‘so you’re saying there’s a chance’.

Let's just say I'm still wearing my Iron Major patch.

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Dang — they’re actioning this quickly!  I’m IPZ 2020....don’t know if/how it affects the promotion rates.   Haven’t thought that far ahead but overall, I feel it’s a good move for the Air Force and will get more aviators promoted.  


If they’re making the five year window 2BPZ-2APZ it won’t change shit just like how the new sub-categories won’t change shit and how the 2-line PRFs only make us waste less time writing PRFs but won’t change how the board works.
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6 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

 


If they’re making the five year window 2BPZ-2APZ it won’t change shit just like how the new sub-categories won’t change shit and how the 2-line PRFs only make us waste less time writing PRFs but won’t change how the board works.

 

I was counting on walking from from Bonus commitment if passed over.  Does a 2APZ mean I now have to get passed over 3 times before I can walk?

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48 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

If they’re making the five year window 2BPZ-2APZ it won’t change shit just like how the new sub-categories won’t change shit and how the 2-line PRFs only make us waste less time writing PRFs but won’t change how the board works.

 

Change may be slow, but at least change is happening. Since I joined: Master's degrees are masked, we stopped picking school selects  at the O-4 board (everyone competes yearly now), you can decline school without prejudice (can turn down school after receiving orders without having to separate), 365s are on the decline (still more work to be done here), helmet art is back, sleeves can be rolled up, lots of civilian contractors have been brought (back) into the squadrons, etc. 

Can more be done? An unequivocal yes... there are so many other things that still need fixing, but things are changing. 

 

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6 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

If they’re making the five year window 2BPZ-2APZ it won’t change shit just like how the new sub-categories won’t change shit and how the 2-line PRFs only make us waste less time writing PRFs but won’t change how the board works.

 

Sounding like it will be current IPZ to 4APZ. Will make it harder for passed over people to walk.

Sub-cats will definitely change things. My prediction is less broad and more focused sub-cat officers... or more tribal and inbred if you want to see it that way.

Two-line PRFs will make it harder for folks with complex or poorly written records to get promoted as it is now the board’s job to read and decipher most of their record and, not that two lines are bad, but the strict rules for how the two lines are to be written does not allow SRs to repeat info already in the OPRs (that may be hidden or needs highlighted).

Overall, it will all help force retention, and by force, I mean force...but when they leave the door cracked folks will still escape.

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5 hours ago, Seriously said:

Master's degrees are masked, we stopped picking school selects  at the O-4 board (everyone competes yearly now), you can decline school without prejudice (can turn down school after receiving orders without having to separate), 365s are on the decline (still more work to be done here), helmet art is back, sleeves can be rolled up, lots of civilian contractors have been brought (back) into the squadrons, etc.

Masters: Great so we’re going to kick out people who went the extra mile. Good idea. (better alternative is to have separate tracks... aviation-only vs strategic)

School selects: This was a good move in conjunction with new strat rules... would have liked to have seen this in my day.

Decline school: Why would you apply in the first place? So we’re only sending folks who get their way now? Perfect. Again... need two tracks.

365s: Need more data, as in, more than a slide with a few numbers saying they’ve decreased, but a slide per 365 that still exists to explain why it still exists and who is vulnerable. The rotating bills is also a great trick because each community can say they only have 5-10 365s to fill each year (you could be next!) oh and btw a few (20-60+?) that rotate between various communities (like roulette?).

Helmet art/sleeves: Who wasn’t doing this anyway?

Civilians: Not being in the SQs, I’ll accept this, but it sounds like only ACC is getting this... and we wonder why AMC and SOF folks are leaving for the triple six figure paychecks and the 3 weeks off 1 week on plans.

We just can’t get enough of our boxes. Until we can think outside of them and handle that the best leaders might not check all of them, any changes we make will be superficial at best.

I love our Air Force so I hope we can turn this ship around. “Fingers” crossed for new SECAF to make some sweeping leadership/cultural changes.

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Sounding like it will be current IPZ to 4APZ. Will make it harder for passed over people to walk.
Sub-cats will definitely change things. My prediction is less broad and more focused sub-cat officers... or more tribal and inbred if you want to see it that way.
Two-line PRFs will make it harder for folks with complex or poorly written records to get promoted as it is now the board’s job to read and decipher most of their record and, not that two lines are bad, but the strict rules for how the two lines are to be written does not allow SRs to repeat info already in the OPRs (that may be hidden or needs highlighted).
Overall, it will all help force retention, and by force, I mean force...but when they leave the door cracked folks will still escape.


Sub categories didn’t work out so well for Naval Aviators.
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3 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

 


Sub categories didn’t work out so well for Naval Aviators.

 

How many Navy four stars are aviators?

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6 hours ago, K_O said:

Sounding like it will be current IPZ to 4APZ. Will make it harder for passed over people to walk.

The FY-18 NDAA created the option for 5 years zones. My Google-fu is weak and I’m unable to find anything about it getting rid of the need for continuation if 2x failure to select, so perhaps a loophole?


 

 

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20 minutes ago, Bigred said:

The FY-18 NDAA created the option for 5 years zones. My Google-fu is weak and I’m unable to find anything about it getting rid of the need for continuation if 2x failure to select, so perhaps a loophole?

“EFFECT OF FAILURE OF SELECTION.—In the administration of this subchapter pursuant to subsection (a)—
‘‘(1) an officer described in subsection (a) shall not be deemed to have failed twice of selection for promotion for pur- poses of section 629(e)(2) of this title until the officer has failed selection of promotion to the next higher grade the max- imum number of times specified for opportunities for promotion to such grade within the competitive category concerned pursu- ant to section 649d of this title; and
‘‘(2) any reference in section 631(a) or 632(a) of this title to an officer who has failed of selection for promotion to the next higher grade for the second time shall be deemed to refer instead to an officer described in subsection (a) who has failed of selection for promotion to the next higher grade for the maximum number of times specified for opportunities for promotion to such grade within the competitive category con- cerned pursuant to such section 649d.”

i.e. everything that talked about twice passed over previously, is now amended to ~”fails to promote in their [5 year] zone”

https://www.congress.gov/115/bills/hr5515/BILLS-115hr5515enr.pdf
 

loophole closed.  If you take the bonus and don’t get promoted you’re still committed through 4 more IPZ looks before continuation or getting out becomes an option.

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7 hours ago, K_O said:

....

Civilians: Not being in the SQs, I’ll accept this, but it sounds like only ACC is getting this... and we wonder why AMC and SOF folks are leaving for the triple six figure paychecks and the 3 weeks off 1 week on plans.

We just can’t get enough of our boxes. Until we can think outside of them and handle that the best leaders might not check all of them, any changes we make will be superficial at best.

I love our Air Force so I hope we can turn this ship around. “Fingers” crossed for new SECAF to make some sweeping leadership/cultural changes.

First, insert whatever socially acceptable "F the man" comments that will keep the Internet Police off my back.

But specifically to the civilians not being in the sqs, after being away for 3 years and returning to a mobility flying Sq, there are 4 civilians back in the sq to handle some of the worst jobs that were previously forced on aircrew, during the Do more with less years.  There's more to be done for sure, but at least that's a start.  So it's not just ACC.  The good fight will maintain more credibility if we can stick to facts.  

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9 minutes ago, MTC said:

specifically to the civilians not being in the sqs, after being away for 3 years and returning to a mobility flying Sq, there are 4 civilians back in the sq to handle some of the worst jobs that were previously forced on aircrew, during the Do more with less years.

...So it's not just ACC. 

 Nice! That’s good to hear.

12 minutes ago, MTC said:

The good fight will maintain more credibility if we can stick to facts.  

Well... wrt to reflecting positively on the good fight that only works if the facts are positive, but yeah sticking to them is the best idea (along with noting alibis).

We need 65% bonus take rate to maintain a healthy force. We have 44% retention in an unhealthy force. Some communities have less than 32% retention. Not good. If the civilians are there, why isn’t that helping?

Since the fact is that the MAF is apparently full up on civilian help, how is AFSOC doing on the civilian front? If all the MAJCOMs are good to go why isn’t it having an effect on retention? Isn’t the idea that aviators get to aviate more supposed to keep people in? I would’ve killed for 4 civilians taking over admin queep.

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26 minutes ago, K_O said:

 Nice! That’s good to hear.

Well... wrt to reflecting positively on the good fight that only works if the facts are positive, but yeah sticking to them is the best idea (along with noting alibis).

We need 65% bonus take rate to maintain a healthy force. We have 44% retention in an unhealthy force. Some communities have less than 32% retention. Not good. If the civilians are there, why isn’t that helping?

Since the fact is that the MAF is apparently full up on civilian help, how is AFSOC doing on the civilian front? If all the MAJCOMs are good to go why isn’t it having an effect on retention? Isn’t the idea that aviators get to aviate more supposed to keep people in? I would’ve killed for 4 civilians taking over admin queep.

I think it will have an impact on retention, but it isn't overnight.  You're not going to take a guy with airline apps already in and TAPS already scheduled and convince him to stay with a civilian hire.  But if we can make life better for the folks at 6-9 years in, we can influence their decision in year 10+.

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11 hours ago, pawnman said:

I think it will have an impact on retention, but it isn't overnight.  You're not going to take a guy with airline apps already in and TAPS already scheduled and convince him to stay with a civilian hire.  But if we can make life better for the folks at 6-9 years in, we can influence their decision in year 10+.

You need buy in from commanders to change culture as well. With the civilian help it's easy for some bosses to feel like you have lots of extra time to start new projects as well. There needs to be a clear culture that you job expectations are focused around operations and execution and not building admin systems and queep. 

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On 12/7/2019 at 6:17 AM, K_O said:

Decline school: Why would you apply in the first place? So we’re only sending folks who get their way now? Perfect. Again... need two tracks.

Civilians: Not being in the SQs, I’ll accept this, but it sounds like only ACC is getting this... and we wonder why AMC and SOF folks are leaving for the triple six figure paychecks and the 3 weeks off 1 week on plans.

I didn’t apply for school, but if I did it would’ve been to one of those foreign ACSC deals as a backup to what I primarily want to do. I would’ve appreciated the ability to say “no thanks.”

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