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Promotion and PRF Information

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59 minutes ago, osulax05 said:

You’re preaching to the choir on the work the WS cadre put in. 

A static close out would take away a SR’s room to maneuver for strats and pushes which will make the tough situation you and I both described worse. 

Are we projecting an officer SCOD without a corresponding change in strats?  They can't do a SCOD with how we're doing strats now.  There's so much double dipping (1/69 O3's, 1/969 CGO's, 1/6969 Officers) it would impact our "almost HPO's."

Granted we're all worker bees, so I'm sure no one's telling the AFPC trolls (retired O5 & 6's) how that'll screw the field.

Could always just get to narrative PRF's and do away with strats all together.

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17D, I agree that if we end up with SCODs for officers we will have to change the strat system and recalibrate our eyes to not expect everybody to be #1 of something. 

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5 hours ago, pawnman said:

People shouldn't go to WIC because they want the chance to lead a squadron of professional, tactical aviators in combat?

They will lead a squadron, wing, etc. tactically...as the expert in their community on tactics, at integrating with others, solving tactical problems many would say, "that's unsolvable" to, building up those around them to be the best ____ that person can be, etc.  WIC is very much a leadership school, and you will get a lot of leadership opportunity out of it, much of which occurs prior to being a SQ/CC.  People should do it because they want to do these things, not primarily as a container checked to help make SQ/CC down the road.

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7 hours ago, frog said:

CE guy here.

Support officers don’t want to run the show. We just want competent senior leadership. Much of the aircrew senior leadership that I have seen has been LESS mission focused than my CE leadership. I can’t count how many times I have pulled Airmen off of the airfield to make the base look better, trim the General’s hedges, etc.

Regarding pilots knowing how to talk to people in order to get what you want, “especially civilians”...you probably know the least about how the civilian system works or how to get long-term production from civilians. Check your ego at the door.

 

^That checks. 

I’ve had some experience with GS & contractors and you’re right, for many of us typical pilot types it won’t compute. That’s a different world. Approach them the wrong way and they’ll just slow roll shit till you move on to another position. Easy enough for them to just wait you out. 

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2 hours ago, brabus said:

People should do it because they want to do these things, not primarily as a container checked to help make SQ/CC down the road.

I wasn't trying to say that all who go to WIC are aiming to be Sq/CC's.  I'm sure every person there has their own unique reason for putting up with the challenges of the course.  However, all else being equal, when it comes time for a Wing to rack and stack or for the command board to pick names, being a WIC grad is a fairly big discriminator.  Haven't we all lamented at some point the waste of talent of sending a Patch to do a queepy Wing job that isn't related to Tactics or instruction?  Maybe those Patches were already sh!t hot to begin with and would have been selected regardless but maybe that Patch is just another easy way for leadership to pick "high potential" talent for grooming and it's value for that shouldn't be understated.

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I've never had a problem talking to or working with civilians. I can't speak for every rated officer, but I know a vast majority of the pilots would excel dealing with the oversight of civilians. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work with civilians.  Most of us switch jobs in a squadron every year so we are all fully capable. I've had contractors working directly for me. If I had it my way, more contractors would do the queep jobs in squadrons to free up flyers to you know, fly!


The idea of contractors working directly for you is a bit problematic at best. They don't ever work for you; they work for the company that was awarded their contract. They work to meet the requirement set forth in the relevant contract, you know...or not, depending on the particulars. ...and when they don't, it's is a hella ass pain to do much of anything about it. That said, my experiences with contractors has been almost completely positive (I consider myself lucky).

Talking to/dealing with doesn't exactly correlate to "oversight". They have their own set of rules and the bad ones can be equally as frustrating as contractors (if not worse). It's good that you can talk to people and express yourself and stuff; it's definitely a good skill.

You idea of queep contractors is being executed in a lot of places. It won't be so enjoyable, as the man starts looking to micro-manage the extra sorties that should be generated by their presence. Solving the quality of life issues everyone bitches about is not easy, at least not from where we're at.

That said, people bitched about the same shit during the Cold War, and will still bitch about the same stuff 69 years from now when we finally let Kabul cave in.

~Bendy

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6 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I've never had a problem talking to or working with civilians. I can't speak for every rated officer, but I know a vast majority of the pilots would excel dealing with the oversight of civilians. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work with civilians.  Most of us switch jobs in a squadron every year so we are all fully capable. I've had contractors working directly for me. If I had it my way, more contractors would do the queep jobs in squadrons to free up flyers to you know, fly!

Task managing a contractor and leading federal civilians are two different animals. You may give the contractor a task, but his corporate management is responsible for his care and feeding. Regarding the civilian workforce, there are a few of those stereotypical civilians that contribute absolutely nothing to the cause. There is also a majority who love their association with the military and are literally begging for someone to fully utilize their talent and develop them into the employees that  we need. I will never forget the sight of a 65 year old wage grade civilian with a high school diploma (maybe) on his back in the frozen mud at 0300 trying to get a snowplow back online with a smile on his face. He didn’t have to do that...how can we inspire the civilian workforce to be more like that guy, or hire 10 more of him?

 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Edited by frog

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On 11/25/2018 at 12:45 PM, HarleyQuinn said:

 

I became a COR with my most recent job and its honestly awful. Your contractor is only accountable to his company and has a moral obligation to pad their bottom line. Meanwhile you have a moral obligation to the government to insure fraud waste and abuse arent being comitted. Its an art form, to go be a dick and tell them something isnt going to fly but then bro it up enough to get them to inprove work on another project. At least in my expereince the PWS is never specific enough to get the quality of work the AF is accustomed to. Now I have worked with great contractors in the past but not in an oversight roll. So now im just curious if it was really great or the commander was able to hide the uglier bits from us at the line level to promote good working relationships. 

Edited by FLEA

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4 hours ago, MooseClub said:

^That checks. 

I’ve had some experience with GS & contractors and you’re right, for many of us typical pilot types it won’t compute. That’s a different world. Approach them the wrong way and they’ll just slow roll shit till you move on to another position. Easy enough for them to just wait you out. 

If civilians or contractors are slow rolling work because of you. Then you are probably the problem and you need to check your leadership style. Some dudes like to bark at civilians. You can't just bark at contractors or a GS like they are in the military. See how that works out for you after being passed over twice and having to work a civilian job where there is no such thing as rank.

Edited by HarleyQuinn
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That said, people bitched about the same shit during the Cold War, and will still bitch about the same stuff 69 years from now when we finally let Kabul cave in.

~Bendy


You are quite the optimist!
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One shouldn't "bark" at military personnel either. Save that for the dogs...

~Bendy

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3 hours ago, Bender said:

One shouldn't "bark" at military personnel either. Save that for the dogs...

~Bendy

If you ignore it it’ll eventually go away.

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14 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

If civilians or contractors are slow rolling work because of you. Then you are probably the problem and you need to check your leadership style. Some dudes like to bark at civilians. You can't just bark at contractors or a GS like they are in the military. See how that works out for you after being passed over twice and having to work a civilian job where there is no such thing as rank.

Yes, that’s my point.

Guys that are used to being able to “bark” at their AD underlings can have a hard time if they don’t adjust their style when dealing with civilians. Point is I’ve seen guys not realize that and the results were self critiquing. 

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"Barking" isn't a leadership style...it's the sound a dog makes. It's just being a douche.

~Bendy

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3 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

Seems like WotR is reading BODN for articles, or just serendipity that we were discussing this - 

https://warontherocks.com/2018/12/promoting-what-we-value-weapons-school-and-talent-management-in-the-air-force/

Super big fan of Cyber Patches being negatively impacted...again, shows what we value.

I have witnessed several instances where officers with only 4-6 years of active flying were promoted below the zone.  A couple were late rate folks and others had managed to attend multiple special programs that took them out of the jet.  I am not sure how missing out on gate months isn't considered a bad thing.

 

Also...I don't want to paint too large of a picture, but senior leadership tends to promote those that are of similar pedigree.  It's an easy comfortable decision and it self-validates their own career choices. In reference to the article, there are more non-patches than patches so I am sure that is at least a contributing factor.

 

Edited by Jetpilot

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14 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

I have witnessed several instances where officers with only 4-6 years of active flying were promoted below the zone.  A couple were late rate folks and others had managed to attend multiple special programs that took them out of the jet.  I am not sure how missing out on gate months isn't considered a bad thing.

 

Also...I don't want to paint too large of a picture, but senior leadership tends to promote those that are of similar pedigree.  It's an easy comfortable decision and it self-validates their own career choices. In reference to the article, there are more non-patches than patches so I am sure that is at least a contributing factor.

 

We had an OG/CC who had about 100 hours of combat time.  For contrast, I had over 400 after my first six-month deployment.

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7 hours ago, pawnman said:

We had an OG/CC who had about 100 hours of combat time.  For contrast, I had over 400 after my first six-month deployment.

I was writing PRFs and seen a guy with well over 1K combat hours, yet he had one strat going up for major. Good dude, just has a different view. Like people should be allowed to play cards at work kind of guy.

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MyPers Officer Promotions will have the promotion increments.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Dumb question, but I thought PRFs went from squadron - group - wing - AFPC. Any reason why your respective numbered AF needs to see your PRF?

Edited by HarleyQuinn

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Dumb question, but I thought PRFs went from squadron - group - wing - AFPC. Any reason why your respective numbered AF needs to see your PRF?


I have no idea how you made it this far...or you’re still trolling.

MLR.
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6 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

 


I have no idea how you made it this far...or you’re still trolling.

MLR.

 

Pile on since he probably doesnt know: aggregate DPs and checking wings to see if they are speeding

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3 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Dumb question, but I thought PRFs went from squadron - group - wing - AFPC. Any reason why your respective numbered AF needs to see your PRF?

Holy hell... You don't know what happens at the MLR, but someone asked you to write a PRF?  I'm feeling slightly better about my own chances, but the guy you were writing for is fucked.

Edited by pawnman
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