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7 hours ago, 14N Guy said:

For anybody still tracking this, had an interesting conversation with a senior leader about what happened to me.

 

Basically I was told my records were fine, except for 2 OPRs. Those OPRs weren’t referrals and they didn’t have any overt negative indicators on them, but, they did have words that made them negative in the eyes of the board.

 

Specifically, they both had push lines that said something like, “ready for next challenge “, and “IDE look” or, “prep for IDE”. Neither had a leadership push but one did have a staff push.

 

So basically, 2 OPRs that were put in my record 8 years ago and 10 years ago have eliminated me from consideration for O-5. I did ask when records from 3-5 years ago would start counting more then records from 8-10 years ago and I was told there isn’t a good answer for that. I was told that if I had received those OPRs as an Lt they probably would have been ignored by the board.

 

As it stands, outside of a General pushing my PRF there is nothing I can do to overcome those two OPRs.

 

Bottom line, if you are a early/mid-level Captain make sure your push lines have all of the parts they need (strat/leadership/school). Nobody else will watch out for your records so you have to.

So I guess the take-away here is that if you got a couple mediocre OPRs as a captain, don't bother growing or improving because it won't matter anyway.

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2 hours ago, pawnman said:

So I guess the take-away here is that if you got a couple mediocre OPRs as a captain, don't bother growing or improving because it won't matter anyway.

I am not exactly sure about this, not to be rogue dissenter guy.  I had mediocre OPRs as an LT and young Captain and still got selected for IDE In Res based on good performance as a senior Capt/Junior Maj.   Also, at a joint command with raters of different services, language like "prep for Sq/CC" is actually good, not bad.  Disappointing, either way, to hear that a couple mediocre OPRs as a junior officer is a disqualifier for O-5....I HOPE it's not true.  Sorry to hear about this bro. 

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2 hours ago, celtic020 said:

I am not exactly sure about this, not to be rogue dissenter guy.  I had mediocre OPRs as an LT and young Captain and still got selected for IDE In Res based on good performance as a senior Capt/Junior Maj.   Also, at a joint command with raters of different services, language like "prep for Sq/CC" is actually good, not bad.  Disappointing, either way, to hear that a couple mediocre OPRs as a junior officer is a disqualifier for O-5....I HOPE it's not true.  Sorry to hear about this bro. 

I think you have a valid point. One thing I forgot to mention yesterday is that I was told that if I had only one OPR that had the negative comments on it, it most likely would have been overlooked. However, because there were two it sent a “clear message” to the board.

 

Could I have done things differently? Absolutely. I wasn’t as mature as I should have been. I wasn’t as good of a leader as I should have been. But, if somebody had given me this feedback a year or two after I got those OPRs I feel confident I could have done things differently to get the results I wanted. It certainly would have changed my assignment preferences. Instead, AF feedback (at least in my experience) is all rainbows and unicorns. 

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Sadly, push lines matter and not everyone knows that, including squadron CCs. 

job school and staff pushes are the way to show who’s a HPO and who’s in the bottom.

 

but if your eater doesn’t know what they are doing, then your push lines could send the wrong, negative message.   A good group or wing staff will catch these things.  Sadly,  most just pass it along.

 

job push:  should show the next job you are being pushed for.  Or it could say, on track for Sq/CC.   

School push should always be there. IDE, in res IDE, SDE, SASS, etc.... leaving it out sends a direct message.

staff push:  there’s a hierarchy for sure.   Malcom, Haf, JT staff.... leaving staff off sends a direct message.  So does a MAJCOM push for that matter 

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38 minutes ago, bennynova said:

Sadly, push lines matter and not everyone knows that, including squadron CCs. 

job school and staff pushes are the way to show who’s a HPO and who’s in the bottom.

 

but if your eater doesn’t know what they are doing, then your push lines could send the wrong, negative message.   A good group or wing staff will catch these things.  Sadly,  most just pass it along.

 

job push:  should show the next job you are being pushed for.  Or it could say, on track for Sq/CC.   

School push should always be there. IDE, in res IDE, SDE, SASS, etc.... leaving it out sends a direct message.

staff push:  there’s a hierarchy for sure.   Malcom, Haf, JT staff.... leaving staff off sends a direct message.  So does a MAJCOM push for that matter 

This is why it is broken, the secrecy and all that.  I know there is a tiered system( 1,2,3) where tier 1 are your HPO's, 2 is everyone else and 3 is the dude why can't pass a PT test.  You'll never see that one either.  

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3 hours ago, 14N Guy said:

I think you have a valid point. One thing I forgot to mention yesterday is that I was told that if I had only one OPR that had the negative comments on it, it most likely would have been overlooked. However, because there were two it sent a “clear message” to the board.

 

Could I have done things differently? Absolutely. I wasn’t as mature as I should have been. I wasn’t as good of a leader as I should have been. But, if somebody had given me this feedback a year or two after I got those OPRs I feel confident I could have done things differently to get the results I wanted. It certainly would have changed my assignment preferences. Instead, AF feedback (at least in my experience) is all rainbows and unicorns. 

What is this feedback thing you speak of?

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I am not exactly sure about this, not to be rogue dissenter guy.  I had mediocre OPRs as an LT and young Captain and still got selected for IDE In Res based on good performance as a senior Capt/Junior Maj.   Also, at a joint command with raters of different services, language like "prep for Sq/CC" is actually good, not bad.  Disappointing, either way, to hear that a couple mediocre OPRs as a junior officer is a disqualifier for O-5....I HOPE it's not true.  Sorry to hear about this bro. 


Two words on your PRF are enough to “send a clear message to the board”:

“Must promote” instead of “definitely promote” on a “P” PRF.
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This is a great thread to emphasize the importance of delivering actual feedback. Most dirt bags in your squadrons probably think they’re doing a good job. People don’t earn wings (or become 14N’s, etc) and get operational without wanting to do well at stuff. Not everyone has enough self SA to realize when they’re missing the mark.

I love this quote attributed to Nick Saban (not sure he said it). “If you want to make everybody happy, don’t be a leader. Sell ice cream.”

You think passed over good dudes would rather be casual acquaintances with you or have you tell them what they’re doing wrong and give them a productive way forward?

Edited by Danger41
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33 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

This is a great thread to emphasize the importance of delivering actual feedback. Most dirt bags in your squadrons probably think they’re doing a good job. People don’t earn wings (or become 14N’s, etc) and get operational without wanting to do well at stuff. Not everyone has enough self SA to realize when they’re missing the mark.

I love this quote attributed to Nick Saban (not sure he said it). “If you want to make everybody happy, don’t be a leader. Sell ice cream.”

You think passed over good dudes would rather be casual acquaintances with you or have you tell them what they’re doing wrong and give them a productive way forward?

I agree with you 100%.

Feedback needs to be 360 degrees, not just top down. How many could say that they have had honest, consistent feedback for their entire career? Either from their OIC or their subordinates.

 

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Then again, that feedback may just consist of what the commander knows, i.e. the path that worked for them

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Two words on your PRF are enough to “send a clear message to the board”:

“Must promote” instead of “definitely promote” on a “P” PRF.

Which is better???


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9 minutes ago, ihtfp06 said:


Which is better???


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Duck says MUST PROMOTE is better

Anything that doesn’t say Definitiely Promote is bad

do you really not know?

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Duck says MUST PROMOTE is better
Anything that doesn’t say Definitiely Promote is bad
do you really not know?


I had my Sq/CC tell me to my face that “must promote” was a solid PRF push (and truly believe it). I told the CC that it was a terrible push and I expected to be passed over. I hate being right.

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1 hour ago, ThreeHoler said:

 


I had my Sq/CC tell me to my face that “must promote” was a solid PRF push (and truly believe it). I told the CC that it was a terrible push and I expected to be passed over. I hate being right.

 

So what should you see if you don't get the DP?  "If I had one more DP to give"?  "Definitely promote" with the "Promote" box checked?  (If I were on a board, that would raise more questions for me than "must promote").

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So what should you see if you don't get the DP?  "If I had one more DP to give"?  "Definitely promote" with the "Promote" box checked?  (If I were on a board, that would raise more questions for me than "must promote").
Both of those are good, based on my passed over counseling. "One more..." being better than "definitely promote". Also need a job, school, and staff push as well.

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Any 05 guys and gals around? I remember the AF holding our year group back a year for promotion. We also survived a riff. I wonder how many folks are actually left to promote? No, I didn't do ACSC because I frankly don't give a d&$n!

This is for my 05 peeps still out there who didn't quit the AF. I think we all love cougars too.

 

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If you don’t know you’re going places then you aren’t going places. Simple as that. 

Mid level captains are on the “path” and know it. 

I feel bad for some of you guys slugging it out with wording of push lines 😕

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If you don’t know you’re going places then you aren’t going places. Simple as that. 
Mid level captains are on the “path” and know it. 
I feel bad for some of you guys slugging it out with wording of push lines

100% correct.

It pains me to see people thinking feedback is the problem. If you receive honest feedback that you need to improve, you are not on the path and never were.

Honest feedback is reserved for counseling chosen ones on how to maintain their path.


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16 hours ago, matmacwc said:

This is why it is broken, the secrecy and all that.  I know there is a tiered system( 1,2,3) where tier 1 are your HPO's, 2 is everyone else and 3 is the dude why can't pass a PT test.  You'll never see that one either.  

If the Corona rumors are true about removing strats and going with top, middle bottom pushes, this will fix the feedback problem.  Dude had no idea he was in the bottom 15% of his year group until the board told him he was.  Getting an early bottom rating on a Lt or Capt OPR will let you know where you stand, and make appropriate life choices about getting out or going guard or reserves if you want to continue to serve.    

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4 hours ago, di1630 said:


100% correct.

It pains me to see people thinking feedback is the problem. If you receive honest feedback that you need to improve, you are not on the path and never were.

Honest feedback is reserved for counseling chosen ones on how to maintain their path.


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That's why people want the feedback.  I don't have to be a Golden Child to make Lt Col and retire.  And if I know I'm not a Golden Child, then the Air Force can no longer entice me with "this 365 will be good for your career" or "you need to take this job in the wing staff for career broadening".  If I already know it's hopeless as a mid-level captain, I can make my calculations without that false hope...keeping me from sucking up a terrible job in the hopes of getting a senior rater to strat me.

 

Quote

If the Corona rumors are true about removing strats and going with top, middle bottom pushes, this will fix the feedback problem.  Dude had no idea he was in the bottom 15% of his year group until the board told him he was.  Getting an early bottom rating on a Lt or Capt OPR will let you know where you stand, and make appropriate life choices about getting out or going guard or reserves if you want to continue to serve.

I could have used this feedback.  I had won a quarterly award for 6 quarters straight after PCSing to my current base.  I was the flight commander of the year for the Operations Group.  I was the instructor of the year for the FTU.  I had a #3/64 strat from the group commander on my top OPR...and yet, with a 75% DP allocation rate to major, I got a P.  I was in the top 5% of FTU instructors, the best flight commander in the group...and somehow, still at the bottom 25% of my year group.  

And I found out I was in the bottom 25% when I got my PRF handed back to me.  Every rater and commander prior to that PRF getting handed back told me how well I was doing and that I had a pretty good shot at going to school.  Talk about eroding your faith in the system.

 

Quote

Any 05 guys and gals around? I remember the AF holding our year group back a year for promotion. We also survived a riff. I wonder how many folks are actually left to promote? No, I didn't do ACSC because I frankly don't give a d&$n!

There's precisely 2 of us at my base.  I'm not even sure what the cut-off is for the WG/CC to get a DP to hand out to us.  It's me and another flyer...at least I'm not competing with a sitting SQ/CC in the MSG for the DP this time around.

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Anyone have insight into the new major board 100% promotion opportunity shindig? Looking at the stats from last year, there were ~3x as many DPs as there were Ps. If I recall correctly it was 100% promotion for pilots with DPs. Pilots with Ps only got around 76%. Were there good dudes still getting passed over with clean records or was that mostly from DUIs, PIFs, etc? My MPF office hasn’t known anything about the upcoming board, so I haven’t been able to get much info on how it’s working.

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Damn pawnman, if you didn’t get a DP with that record I definitely don’t stand a chance. Being a MAF/RPA/MAF reject, I wonder why my SQ/CC and others are trying to convince dudes like me to stay in. If I did, it would just be a few more years before I’m passed over twice and deciding between continuation or separation. So why not make that decision now, move back to where I can spend time with my extended family, and get on with the rest of my life?

Other things I hear are that 06-07 guys are all but guaranteed O-6 if they just stay active duty. Somehow I don’t believe that.


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1 hour ago, MooseAg03 said:

Damn pawnman, if you didn’t get a DP with that record I definitely don’t stand a chance. Being a MAF/RPA/MAF reject, I wonder why my SQ/CC and others are trying to convince dudes like me to stay in. If I did, it would just be a few more years before I’m passed over twice and deciding between continuation or separation. So why not make that decision now, move back to where I can spend time with my extended family, and get on with the rest of my life?

Other things I hear are that 06-07 guys are all but guaranteed O-6 if they just stay active duty. Somehow I don’t believe that.


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That's my goal. Advancement through attrition. Almost no one left in my year group or the two behind me.  The Air Force is begging retired O-5s and O-6s to come back.  Seems to indicate there are a lot of openings at the O-5/O-6 level. Remains to be seen if the USAF can be smart about filling them... The last promotion board doesn't seem to be much of a departure from the ones that occurred in the past few years though, so...

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I think the 100% promote rate for all career fields to O-4 was a case of Fingers realizing he needed to retain pilots, but was unwilling to tell the on-rated types they’re not as important. We won’t go to 100% for all career fields to O-5, and Fingers doesn’t have the spine to call the baby ugly by going to 100% for just pilots.

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1 hour ago, pawnman said:

That's my goal. Advancement through attrition. Almost no one left in my year group or the two behind me.  The Air Force is begging retired O-5s and O-6s to come back.  Seems to indicate there are a lot of openings at the O-5/O-6 level. Remains to be seen if the USAF can be smart about filling them... The last promotion board doesn't seem to be much of a departure from the ones that occurred in the past few years though, so...

If you want to retire as an O-5, the Guard is hiring

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