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1 hour ago, bennynova said:

I think next CSAF is Robinson.... female and Cyber.   

 

Probably time for both honestly...

Nope, it's still the AIR Force.  

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26 minutes ago, 17D_guy said:

How was Skeletor good for the service at large?

Not, ever.  I went to an AF ball where he was a speaker, I wanted to walk out about half way through, so full of crap.

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13 hours ago, bennynova said:

Oh, and CONGRATS, major select Duck!!!  It's a 100% certainty (well, 100% opportunity) that you "made it"    I hope for your sake that you didn't though.   But assuming you are selected for promotion, what is your way forward now?

Thanks man. I am pretty excited about additional authori-tie. (Cartman) 

Actually my life in the AF has been pretty awesome since I showed my cards. The best was when my ADO asked me to do something which was #1 a terrible idea, and #2 would have been a huge time suck on my part and I just said "Nah man. I ain't gonna do that". Then he asked me to supervise and make sure someone else did it to which I replied... "Nah brother, I ain't your guy, but I'll tell them you are looking to talk to them". (I am sure that will make some people on this board go ballistic on me, but seriously you don't understand the whole story)

A week later he inquired how the job was going and I told him I had no idea. I guess he thought I was joking.

The good part of this story is that I have flown a ton and actually contributed (debatable) to the mission. Life not caring about chasing down things that don't matter has been phenomenal. I have been able to go to work, do my job AND ONLY MY JOB, help out people who need help and then go home and be with my family.

I am still holding out hope that I get good news in March, but even if I don't, I have 2 years left on my sentence and maybe just over 1 year if I get paroled for good behavior (unlikely).

People have asked me if I would do it all over again knowing about the 100% promotion opportunity and my response is "hell yeah". As dumb as it may sound, I was able to tell the AF that I was unhappy with how they were running things and that I didn't want to play anymore. Yeah it may cost me about 6 months of O-4 pay, but the freedom that I gained has been well worth it. My wife told me the other day that she hadn't seen me this happy since I started flying.

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Nope, it's still the AIR Force.  

True but she did start / serve as aircrew and then went on to other domains we operate in, breadth in experience / knowledge is better for overall leadership & management of the institution.

Just my two cents but she sounds like what we should be developing for senior leadership.

Experience with a broad range of operations versus specialized.

The days of the bomber / fighter / pilot only general should be gone.

It should be the Operations General with a broad based career to have the 50,000’ view.

Said as a proud pilot but we are not the only place in AF where senior leadership should come from

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1 hour ago, Duck said:

Thanks man. I am pretty excited about additional authori-tie. (Cartman) 

Actually my life in the AF has been pretty awesome since I showed my cards. The best was when my ADO asked me to do something which was #1 a terrible idea, and #2 would have been a huge time suck on my part and I just said "Nah man. I ain't gonna do that". Then he asked me to supervise and make sure someone else did it to which I replied... "Nah brother, I ain't your guy, but I'll tell them you are looking to talk to them". (I am sure that will make some people on this board go ballistic on me, but seriously you don't understand the whole story)

A week later he inquired how the job was going and I told him I had no idea. I guess he thought I was joking.

The good part of this story is that I have flown a ton and actually contributed (debatable) to the mission. Life not caring about chasing down things that don't matter has been phenomenal. I have been able to go to work, do my job AND ONLY MY JOB, help out people who need help and then go home and be with my family.

I am still holding out hope that I get good news in March, but even if I don't, I have 2 years left on my sentence and maybe just over 1 year if I get paroled for good behavior (unlikely).

People have asked me if I would do it all over again knowing about the 100% promotion opportunity and my response is "hell yeah". As dumb as it may sound, I was able to tell the AF that I was unhappy with how they were running things and that I didn't want to play anymore. Yeah it may cost me about 6 months of O-4 pay, but the freedom that I gained has been well worth it. My wife told me the other day that she hadn't seen me this happy since I started flying.

Just be careful, there are still promotion boards and the bro network in the AFRC/ANG.  That being said, you usually have a 6 month window or so of saying fuck off; I did it, and it was good, and there was much rejoicing across the land.

Edited by matmacwc
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9 hours ago, Duck said:

Actually my life in the AF has been pretty awesome since I showed my cards.

 

Without getting into too much detail, I also showed my cards, and my QoL became measuredly better. I was at a UPT base and resumed flying 4-5x a week. While I missed being operational, my work life was what I always imagined being a Pilot in the USAF would be like.  

In AF wisdom, they PCS'd me in the middle of my promotion shenanigans, and my gaining base got a whopping 10 months of qualified time before I started terminal. Any discussions about the irony of the situation with both the losing Wing CC and new functional was a rousing generic speech on how disappointed I must be with this outcome, and not to give up hope on being promoted ABZ.

And now I sit here on terminal, vacationing in Europe, out 2 years early from my ADSC, and a CJO from a legacy airline. Life is good.

Edited by xaarman
made a bit more anonymous, clarified a few pieces
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12 hours ago, RASH said:


Really? Cyber???

Certainly we don't need the force to focus on America's #1 vulnerability, right?

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Without getting into too much detail, I also showed my cards, and my QoL became measuredly better. I was at a UPT base and resumed flying 4-5x a week. While I missed being operational, my work life was what I always imagined being a Pilot in the USAF would be like.  
In AF wisdom, they PCS'd me in the middle of my promotion shenanigans, and my gaining base got a whopping 10 months of qualified time before I started terminal. Any discussions about the irony of the situation with both the losing Wing CC and new functional was a rousing generic speech on how disappointed I must be with this outcome, and not to give up hope on being promoted ABZ.
And now I sit here on terminal, vacationing in Europe, out 2 years early from my ADSC, and a CJO from a legacy airline. Life is good.

Literally, this just happened to me as well. PCS’d in between boards.

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14 hours ago, bennynova said:

I think next CSAF is Robinson.... female and Cyber.   

 

Probably time for both honestly...

Trump is anti-women, so clearly this will not happen...

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23 minutes ago, Duck said:


Literally, this just happened to me as well. PCS’d in between boards.

Did you decline the ADSC for the PCS and get sent anyway?  My situation is similar.  I'm about to be up for a new assignment with a little over two years to go.  I was passed over on the first board with no paperwork to get me on the second one.  I'm trying to stay where I'm at until I can separate.  I thought declining the training ADSC would do the trick, but it sounds like some folks have been moved with less useful time at their follow on assignment than I'll have.

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True but she did start / serve as aircrew and then went on to other domains we operate in, breadth in experience / knowledge is better for overall leadership & management of the institution.

Just my two cents but she sounds like what we should be developing for senior leadership.

Experience with a broad range of operations versus specialized.

The days of the bomber / fighter / pilot only general should be gone.

It should be the Operations General with a broad based career to have the 50,000’ view.

Said as a proud pilot but we are not the only place in AF where senior leadership should come from

There have been plenty of people that go to different assignments or jobs not because of the breadth of experience or career broadening but because they were the sticky booger to get flicked. Not saying she is one but I am cautious of leaders who have what appears to be an amazing record on paper. Doesn’t mean they are a good leader. O’s and E’s alike. Some of the worst people I have met in this Air Force are senior officers and enlisted. Not saying she isn’t deserving but because she is a she and has had different assignments doesn’t necessarily make her the right choice. Especially have to be cautious in the day and age of AF PC police. Where they will do anything to look inclusive even if it’s the wrong choice.

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12 hours ago, Fireball said:

So do we support the creation of separate Cyber and Space Forces? 

I think there is a lot of validity to create a separate cyber/space force.  Not an expert in either, so maybe the cyber/space folks could speak up; but it sounds like that would be a way for each domain to secure the attention and funding it needs.  Sometimes I think the Air Force has a culture of trying to do too much instead of focusing on being a master of set domains.

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Agree, dream big.  Space and cyber are our next biggest domains and I think we are WAY behind in cyber security.  And we are way behind inbwhere we should be with security too.  Some of our biggest barriers to operations and meetings are set imposed security queep.    

 

We are are probably doing well in space, but cyber trumps all and can negatively affect everything.  

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2 hours ago, Guardian said:

There have been plenty of people that go to different assignments or jobs not because of the breadth of experience or career broadening but because they were the sticky booger to get flicked. Not saying she is one but I am cautious of leaders who have what appears to be an amazing record on paper. Doesn’t mean they are a good leader. O’s and E’s alike. Some of the worst people I have met in this Air Force are senior officers and enlisted. Not saying she isn’t deserving but because she is a she and has had different assignments doesn’t necessarily make her the right choice. Especially have to be cautious in the day and age of AF PC police. Where they will do anything to look inclusive even if it’s the wrong choice.

No doubt that has and continues to happen.  The booger fling is a real phenomenon and it is right to beware someone at certain points in their career and they have not attained certain quals/certs as that is possibly indicative of buck passage.  

My only knowledge of her capability is second hand from when she was being initially discussed as a candidate prior to Fingers, consensus was she was a good egg.  

My two cents, if the AF was operations / leadership focused vice problem mitigation / management focused, those on the path to leadership would be identified at around the 8-10 year point in their careers, recruited and selected, then sent to other communities to develop a cadre with a broad but not shallow depth of understanding of how air, space and cyber power are delivered for the Joint Force as a total effort.  

They would say the current AF does this now, not so much IMO.

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Did you decline the ADSC for the PCS and get sent anyway?  My situation is similar.  I'm about to be up for a new assignment with a little over two years to go.  I was passed over on the first board with no paperwork to get me on the second one.  I'm trying to stay where I'm at until I can separate.  I thought declining the training ADSC would do the trick, but it sounds like some folks have been moved with less useful time at their follow on assignment than I'll have.

Nah actually I moved to my #1 choice on my ADP short notice to help out the functional and be closer to my dying father-in-law. Best case scenario, I get out in 3-4 months. Worst case I end up spending the next 2 years in a nice location where my wife can be with her family. Win-win.

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15 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:


True but she did start / serve as aircrew and then went on to other domains we operate in, breadth in experience / knowledge is better for overall leadership & management of the institution.

Just my two cents but she sounds like what we should be developing for senior leadership.

Experience with a broad range of operations versus specialized.

The days of the bomber / fighter / pilot only general should be gone.

It should be the Operations General with a broad based career to have the 50,000’ view.

Said as a proud pilot but we are not the only place in AF where senior leadership should come from

I get your point, but remember what a colossal fuck fest happened when Libya kicked off and a tanker general was in charge. Not a slight against tanker bros, but we all have our place. What would have happened had a cyber general been in charge? Either it would have been worse, or they would have had more sense/humility and stepped aside and let the CAF guys take the reigns. The latter being better, but still shows the inadequacy of placing the wrong experience in a position.

That said, cyber is extremely important and a huge problem (and capability) for us. They should be their own force; the AF is holding on much like the Army held onto the air corps. Let the cyber experts run their domain without a pilot thinking they know better/think they can effectively make the calls...it goes both ways.

We are the AIR Force as Matt pointed out, keep it that way and split off the domains to a separate service that while complimenting air, should not be under our services purview. Same with the Army, get their grubby fingers out of the cyber pot as well. 

Edited by brabus

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38 minutes ago, brabus said:

I get your point, but remember what a colossal fuck fest happened when Libya kicked off and a tanker general was in charge. Not a slight against tanker bros, but we all have our place. What would have happened had a cyber general been in charge? Either it would have been worse, or they would have had more sense/humility and stepped aside and let the CAF guys take the reigns. The latter being better, but still shows the inadequacy of placing the wrong experience in a position.

That said, cyber is extremely important and a huge problem (and capability) for us. They should be their own force; the AF is holding on much like the Army held onto the air corps. Let the cyber experts run their domain without a pilot thinking they know better/think they can effectively make the calls.  

That's the rub, how do you actually execute your reform so you don't open up another can of worms.

To reference the example you cited and to expand on the idea of a generalist leader, some part of the career experience would have to be combat operations to lead/command combat operations.

Mission commanding combat aviation?  Bomber/Fighter/Attack/Strike/EW/ISR with Kinetic Finish/JTAC experience required but that leader also having direct experience in mobility/logistics/cyber/intel is best.  

Mission commanding cyber operations?  Cyber experience required but that leader also having aviation/intel/ndo/space/etc... is best.

We should broaden the opportunity for cross flow between career paths for those we believe will be able to use that direct experience and knowledge in likely roles as senior leaders.  

More opportunities for heavy dudes to flow to bombers/cyber/ndo/etc... (fighters & attack also if it is appropriate and meets the needs of the AF) if said heavy guy is identified and assessed based on his/her operational performance and intellectual capability to be an effective combat leader.

Opportunities for fighter/bomber/attack dudes identified as future leaders to flow for an operational assignment to heavies/rpa/isr/cyber/ndo/space without it being a black mark or viewed as a demotion to broaden their experience so as senior leaders, they effectively lead the team in delivering air/space/cyber power.

Opportunities for cyber/space/ndo/battlefield airmen to crossflow into aviation/mx/logistics/etc...

Right now we have leadership dependent on having a team around them to be the expert in X field to give them advice on how to bring all the elements together to deliver air/space/cyber power.  It works but IMO, having a career policy that encourages/guides broadening for those recruited/selected for a leadership path after proving themselves in the first operational community is better.

Edited by Clark Griswold
forgot one point

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Merry Christmas you filthy animals.  A mod should probably move this conversation to the Cyber thread, but I'll give my brief thoughts here, then expand there if moved. 

No, cyber should not be a separate service right now.  Probably not for another decade.  Most of the Sr Leaders are former Comm-O's who jerk themselves off about being operators, without instilling operational discipline in their units.  You ever have a flying Grp/Sq CC not do what was ordered by an operational CC/NAF and not get kicked in the dick?  Happens all the time in Cyber. 

I will say Ops is Ops, and a Ops minded cyber-bro should be able to figure out how to plan/lead a conventional mission, just the same for a flier planning a cyber mission.  I've watched Wedge do it, it's about enabling the team...not the individual.  Cyber is very much a team sport.

As is now, Offensive/Defensive Cyber as a SOCOM like force makes most sense.  DoDIN-Ops (AFNET) needs to die in a fire.  Our cybersecurity is both better (AF operators) and worse (PMO's, acquisitions) than you'd think.  Most younger cyber guys thinks it needs to be a separate force, most older don't seem to care.  There's a good band of us around the '07-'11 year groups that see it the way I mentioned above.

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Merry Christmas you filthy animals.  A mod should probably move this conversation to the Cyber thread, but I'll give my brief thoughts here, then expand there if moved. 


The mods are all drinking egg nog and playing with their Christmas presents you nerd.
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[quote post="437079" timestamp="1514202387" name="xaarman" userid="
I was at a UPT base and resumed flying 4-5x a week.


Pfft...thanks for the help. My "additional duties" are beyond stupid and I still fly 4-5 for them.

What the were you doing all day?

Bendy

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9 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

That's the rub, how do you actually execute your reform so you don't open up another can of worms.

To reference the example you cited and to expand on the idea of a generalist leader, some part of the career experience would have to be combat operations to lead/command combat operations.

Mission commanding combat aviation?  Bomber/Fighter/Attack/Strike/EW/ISR with Kinetic Finish/JTAC experience required but that leader also having direct experience in mobility/logistics/cyber/intel is best.  

Mission commanding cyber operations?  Cyber experience required but that leader also having aviation/intel/ndo/space/etc... is best.

We should broaden the opportunity for cross flow between career paths for those we believe will be able to use that direct experience and knowledge in likely roles as senior leaders.  

More opportunities for heavy dudes to flow to bombers/cyber/ndo/etc... (fighters & attack also if it is appropriate and meets the needs of the AF) if said heavy guy is identified and assessed based on his/her operational performance and intellectual capability to be an effective combat leader.

Opportunities for fighter/bomber/attack dudes identified as future leaders to flow for an operational assignment to heavies/rpa/isr/cyber/ndo/space without it being a black mark or viewed as a demotion to broaden their experience so as senior leaders, they effectively lead the team in delivering air/space/cyber power.

Opportunities for cyber/space/ndo/battlefield airmen to crossflow into aviation/mx/logistics/etc...

Right now we have leadership dependent on having a team around them to be the expert in X field to give them advice on how to bring all the elements together to deliver air/space/cyber power.  It works but IMO, having a career policy that encourages/guides broadening for those recruited/selected for a leadership path after proving themselves in the first operational community is better.

Breadth is not always a good thing, in fact most here would be very hesitant to agree to this “cross-pollination” of sorts.  Phoenix Mobility in AMC (where airlift guys fly tankers and vice versa) has been a disaster.  Both the airlift and tanker communities have ended up with careerist toads who have no idea what they are doing.  This isn’t to say that knowledge of other career fields isn’t critical as a strategic leader; but the depth and knowledge of being an expert in your career set goes a long way in developing a credible combat leader.  

Another hesitation is the creation of the HPO “high potential officer” caste.  I believe the Air Force has been doing away with this concept, and rightfully so.  For instance, we no longer have school selects.  There is no way of knowing whether someone as a Captain would be a good strategic leader.  The HPO lists, and believe me, they are out there, have created a class of untouchable “rising stars” regardless of performance while ignoring potentially strong leaders that didn’t fit a certain mold.  

Edited by dream big
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From the perspective of this very middle of the road officer, I have been in the company of some very big brained dudes who performed commensurate with their IQs in combat and as leaders and were identified as captains. Maybe bureaucracies don’t do a good job at quantifying this on paper via the “HPO” track or whatever they call it, but as sure as BQZips mom swims after troopships, they were identified early as being above their peers in leadership ability and I’m glad they were as the AF got it right in those instances. I’m sure some sniveling whiners bitched about their success out of jealousy, but bitches gonna bitch- always.

Also, ma Robinson is an ABM for fvcks sake.

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