Promotion and PRF Information

[Champ Kind]

BODN is supposed to be my sanctuary.

Now we are discussing the pros and cons of "C-Method" vs "Thematic" PRF writing.

Worlds have collided. Ugh.

[joe1234]

BODN is supposed to be my sanctuary.

Now we are discussing the pros and cons of "C-Method" vs "Thematic" PRF writing.

Worlds have collided. Ugh.

I am really at a loss at what the hell you expected when you decided to read a thread titled "Promotion and PRF Information".

[RASH]

Another good article from Tony Carr. It's focused on the enlisted, but equally applicable to the officers...

http://www.jqpublic-blog.com/?p=431

This is in response to the AF Times article referenced in post 565 of this thread.

Edited June 27, 2013 by RASH

[GoAround]

Another good article from Tony Carr. It's focused on the enlisted, but equally applicable to the officers...

http://www.jqpublic-blog.com/?p=431

This is in response to the AF Times article referenced in post 565 of this thread.

I especially appreciate his parting thought: "While instructing airmen on how to be successful careerists manifests a kind of loyalty, it’s a betrayal of the service, which needs its leaders to keep airmen focused on the mission first and themselves later, after they’ve established a professional foundation upon which they can stand firmly and build themselves into capable career airmen."

[pcola]

Another good article from Tony Carr. It's focused on the enlisted, but equally applicable to the officers...

http://www.jqpublic-blog.com/?p=431

This is in response to the AF Times article referenced in post 565 of this thread.

Excellent article and couldn't agree more with his philosophy. It's a shame he's out of the fight.

[Maul]

Liquid, Your comments are appreciated. If you'd like to see the spreadsheet point system, I'd love to send you an example via PM. Truly disturbing stuff.

I'm the fortunate recipient of a school select designation w/ no AAD/BAC+ at one command followed by 3849: Not Recommended x 2 Years at my next assignment.

AAD/PME/Initial Qual/Requal/IPUG value = what you put into it. I double turned classes for my ERAU AAD recently and got almost nothing out of it personally. I got more out of my Formal Flying Training programs which I felt were more important. Now that I'm AAD/PME box checked, I have difficulty even wanting to stay (besides the obvious financial benefit), but every day feels like a prison sentence. Probably because I'm deployed again doing something I don't enjoy (non-flying) surrounded by concertina wire, rarely leave the compound, and work out a lot. I suppose many struggle with the transition from tactical (flying) to Ops/Strat (staffs), but I'm pretty sure I didn't try so hard at Formal Flying programs IOT get a DG w/ the end goal of being a glorified secretary w/ MS Office skills and a tactical background.

It seems it's unlikely the top 20% will stay too far past the bare minimum when they've been metaphorically a** raped (SAPR reference) with expectations/time away from family leading to lesser qualified individuals (those barely in the top 50% who checked boxes and hardly worked resulting in higher QOL and more reason to stay) taking Sq and OG commands. I think this is the fear of many in the forum when the guy at the top of the bottom 50% might be a great leader. Those who self identify via PME non completion (Yeah, this just screams "screw you promotion board") and marks a clean kill.

Now that I'm AAD complete, it seems like it should seem easier looking back, but I can still testify it was awful and easily the worst year of my life (due to the expectation laid out by leadership and my personal choice to put it off until I was being threatened to be not recommended on my third IDE look, and double turning classes while playing DO). I could have made it less painful by doing it earlier in my career, but as I was taking all my classes at ERAU w/ a bunch of Lts/Early Captains I couldn't help but thinking their efforts were at the expense of some level of tactical expertise and whatever practical application of the AAD towards the higher level knowledge required for staffs and joint environments won't be retained by a Lt. Probably should happen as we prep officers for these staffs. We should set up schools to develop these leaders with the skills required for these environments.....Oh wait......

Long live Gen Jumper's recommendations although they will never truly be in effect since DPs are given by the SR and SRs will use metrics easily identified by .xlsx products like the one I mentioned above.

Maybe I'm wrong. Just my 2 cents.

[General Chang]

Maul,

Hate to top rope you here, but you royally screwed yourself. You did not need to waste one second on a Masters as a school select. School select means the Air Force guarantees to send you in-residence to get both PME and your Masters. No exceptions. A CC cannot use "lack of a Masters" to avoid sending you to ACSC on your 3rd look. Not going to happen. If it did actually happen, and that was his justification, your CC would eat crow, and the decision would not stand. Those kinds of decisions have to be justified up here at the palace, and lack of a Masters is not justification. You received really piss poor mentoring. Or did you? Read on...

Will you make GO by waiting until your 3rd look to go to school, then waiting for ACSC graduation to get your Masters checked off? No, because you will not get promoted early, you will kill your chances at SDE school select in the zone because you will meet your O-5 board in the zone without Masters complete, and it makes competing for O-6 that much harder.

So, Maul, let's be honest with the forum. You want to compete for Colonel, and your mentor told you that you can't wait around for Masters to hit you record until after ACSC in-res completion because you're going 3rd look. So you get a degree you hate, and you gripe and complain, because you weren't satisfied retiring as an O-5. You chose the pain to compete for O-6; stop whining about the "threats" you received from your boss, and do us all a favor and leave at the 20 year mark. Thanks for your service.

[Rusty Pipes]

Maul,

Hate to top rope you here, but you royally screwed yourself. You did not need to waste one second on a Masters as a school select. School select means the Air Force guarantees to send you in-residence to get both PME and your Masters. No exceptions. A CC cannot use "lack of a Masters" to avoid sending you to ACSC on your 3rd look. Not going to happen. If it did actually happen, and that was his justification, your CC would eat crow, and the decision would not stand. Those kinds of decisions have to be justified up here at the palace, and lack of a Masters is not justification. You received really piss poor mentoring. Or did you? Read on...

Will you make GO by waiting until your 3rd look to go to school, then waiting for ACSC graduation to get your Masters checked off? No, because you will not get promoted early, you will kill your chances at SDE school select in the zone because you will meet your O-5 board in the zone without Masters complete, and it makes competing for O-6 that much harder.

So, Maul, let's be honest with the forum. You want to compete for Colonel, and your mentor told you that you can't wait around for Masters to hit you record until after ACSC in-res completion because you're going 3rd look. So you get a degree you hate, and you gripe and complain, because you weren't satisfied retiring as an O-5. You chose the pain to compete for O-6; stop whining about the "threats" you received from your boss, and do us all a favor and leave at the 20 year mark. Thanks for your service.

Ummmm... got it; so box checking at specific gates to attain a completely useless AAD at taxpayer expense equates directly to getting promoted early and O-6! It also seems that you equate the Masters degree from IDE to being even more useless than the ERAU Masters he got in the box checking process. If you say that being selected for IDE guarantees both a Masters and PME then how do you justify the all but unwritten requirement to have both completed before then? You said yourself that in order to progress past O-5 you need both done prior to IDE. In times of massive budget cuts, sequestration and furloughs I'd love to hear from the perspective of someone more senior than 95% of the guys in this forum and sitting up at the Pentagon how you justify that expense for the sake of box checking? Serious question!

There are very few people on here that have heard a valid reason from AF leaders for us to continue funding diploma factories. Do you have one? In fact I'd venture to say that there is a vast majority of folks here who got the same talk from their bosses that I did, "I know it is stupid, but just knock it out to check the box so you don't close any doors." I've heard the "educated force" reasoning countless times from GOs, but I can say without exaggerating at all that my AAD "education" was probably the equivalent of high school level academics. The really scary thing is that even though you will get a large percent of officers ranging from O-1 to even O-10 (reference Gen Jumper) including almost every Sq CC and OG CC I've had in the past 10 yrs who thinks this is either a useless requirement or a distraction, but when Maul complains about it your reaction to him not falling in line is, "...do us all a favor and leave at the 20 year mark. Thanks for your service." One of my past DOs is an O-7 now and a few months ago he was telling me about how much of a colossal waste of time and money he thinks AADs from online schools for box checking are for our officer corps... should he have done us all a favor and left at the 20 year mark too???

[Maul]

Whoa Killer. Top Rope is fine. I read the AFI. I understood my Wg/CC would have some serious explaining to a GO if I wasn't recommended (although my less than knowledgable Sq/CC did assert it happens all the time). I understood the rules and yes, I thought it would be better to have my AAD prior to last look. I was also under the impression I wouldn't be held until last look because I didn't have my AAD. I suppose this is the mentoring I missed when the OG leadership seems to attempt to "fix the glitch" for the AF for the non AAD school select. At least this was my impression after I thought I would be recommended 2nd look and was surprised when I wasn't. This year was also followed by a blank 2-below PRF. I know I likely wouldn't have had a prayer, but I still felt dissappointed. I thought I was trying to do everything expected and shouldn't gripe. I suppose the service is better served by those who don't complain about the system.

I was surprised you went straight to get the f**k out and do us a service and Kill yourself while your at it. (Drama for emphasis)

I have had a positive experience for the majority of my Air Force career with great assignments, opportunities, and good luck/timing. I probably shouldn't complain about my admitted self-induced pain. The last year or two has been especially difficult for me and my family (Boo-hoo, right. I'm sure others have it much worse and have lost their families). As we've been told the entire time (at least I have seen it), checking all the boxes doesn't guarentee you anything and in the end the Institution will march along just fine after any of us leave. For those who juggle with the decision to dedicate more time to the Air Force or to a Family, I hope everyone is able to navigate those waters safely with their families intact. Yup, nobody is forcing me to stay. Just seemed a little venomous for a post concerning the overemphasis (IMHO, probably not yours) of the AAD. But unless an entire year group decides not to get one, it will continue to be an easy way to stratify.

[addict]

WTF Just happened. I've never read so much gamesmanship in one post (GC)

"Thanks for your service" is going to be making the rounds I suppose.

Edited June 28, 2013 by addict

[deskjockey]

Maul,

Hate to top rope you here, but you royally screwed yourself. You did not need to waste one second on a Masters as a school select. School select means the Air Force guarantees to send you in-residence to get both PME and your Masters. No exceptions. A CC cannot use "lack of a Masters" to avoid sending you to ACSC on your 3rd look. Not going to happen. If it did actually happen, and that was his justification, your CC would eat crow, and the decision would not stand. Those kinds of decisions have to be justified up here at the palace, and lack of a Masters is not justification. You received really piss poor mentoring. Or did you? Read on...

Will you make GO by waiting until your 3rd look to go to school, then waiting for ACSC graduation to get your Masters checked off? No, because you will not get promoted early, you will kill your chances at SDE school select in the zone because you will meet your O-5 board in the zone without Masters complete, and it makes competing for O-6 that much harder.

So, Maul, let's be honest with the forum. You want to compete for Colonel, and your mentor told you that you can't wait around for Masters to hit you record until after ACSC in-res completion because you're going 3rd look. So you get a degree you hate, and you gripe and complain, because you weren't satisfied retiring as an O-5. You chose the pain to compete for O-6; stop whining about the "threats" you received from your boss, and do us all a favor and leave at the 20 year mark. Thanks for your service.

This is the most revealing anecdote and response in this board to date. Assuming Gen Chang is who he alludes to being and not a troll... Wrapped up in the response to someone who, for whatever reason, had to complete a useless AAD in order to continue to serve and be promoted is all that is wrong with the AF. 1)box checking 2) lack of mission focus 3) careerism 4) and most of all, poor, seeemingly impotent, leadership, reliant on platitudes and dismissive of anyone who doesn't reflect their image of a good officer.

A better response:

Maul, thank you for your service. (better to lead with that rather than the sanctimonious way in which Chang used it) You faced a tough situation. You would have certainly gone to ACSC based on the select status. However, because of timing, I'm sure you know that any chance for a BPZ would be eliminated. Congrats though, as an in-res school dude you have a great shot at O-6. You can stay tactically relevant and hopefully continue to lead from the front. This is a great example of how choosing not to check the Air force approved boxes can bite you. While I don't agree with the system completely, it is the world we live in for now. (while working to change it). Good luck, enjoy school, and get back to the fight soon.

Edited June 28, 2013 by deskjockey

[slackline]

slackline, did you come from the 347th wing at Moody by any chance? Just inquisitive, no other motive.

Attack!

Tulsa

Tenant unit, but yes.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[General Chang]

This is the most revealing anecdote and response in this board to date. Assuming Gen Chang is who he alludes to being and not a troll... Wrapped up in the response to someone who, for whatever reason, had to complete a useless AAD in order to continue to serve and be promoted is all that is wrong with the AF. 1)box checking 2) lack of mission focus 3) careerism 4) and most of all, poor, seeemingly impotent, leadership, reliant on platitudes and dismissive of anyone who doesn't reflect their image of a good officer.

A better response:

Maul, thank you for your service. (better to lead with that rather than the sanctimonious way in which Chang used it) You faced a tough situation. You would have certainly gone to ACSC based on the select status. However, because of timing, I'm sure you know that any chance for a BPZ would be eliminated. Congrats though, as an in-res school dude you have a great shot at O-6. You can stay tactically relevant and hopefully continue to lead from the front. This is a great example of how choosing not to check the Air force approved boxes can bite you. While I don't agree with the system completely, it is the world we live in for now. (while working to change it). Good luck, enjoy school, and get back to the fight soon.

Really desk jockey? You're pissed I didn't coddle him? If you took offense to that post, you pilots don't have the cahones I thought you had. Pilot pansy.

[deskjockey]

Really desk jockey? You're pissed I didn't coddle him? If you took offense to that post, you pilots don't have the cahones I thought you had. Pilot pansy.

Classy. I think we can close the book on this troll.

Nothing to see here...move along.

[Rusty Pipes]

Really desk jockey? You're pissed I didn't coddle him? If you took offense to that post, you pilots don't have the cahones I thought you had. Pilot pansy.

So I guess Chang isn't a pilot then, huh?

[Vetter]

Probably washed out of pilot training.

[theat6bisasham]

He mimics a brain dead old head very well though...MSG/CC at the very least in my book.

[Karl Hungus]

Really desk jockey? You're pissed I didn't coddle him? If you took offense to that post, you pilots don't have the cahones I thought you had. Pilot pansy.

Ugh.

Much like Liquid, ClearedHot, and other "leaders" to frequent this board... disappointing.

[Ram]

Ugh.

Much like Liquid, ClearedHot, and other "leaders" to frequent this board... disappointing.

I haven't read all of Liquid's posts, but I know for sure it's not right to lump ClearedHot in that pile of "leaders."

CH's posts have always been straight talk, even the ones people found tough to read. I think it's unfortunate he doesn't post much (or at all) anymore.

[ThreeHoler]

cahones

What are cahones? Are the anything like cojones?

[Karl Hungus]

I haven't read all of Liquid's posts, but I know for sure it's not right to lump ClearedHot in that pile of "leaders."

CH's posts have always been straight talk, even the ones people found tough to read. I think it's unfortunate he doesn't post much (or at all) anymore.

You must have missed the thread in the squadron bar where he was called out by someone for editing people's posts, then deleted the subsequent posts of everyone who dared to call him out on his bullshit. Classy. Don't think he's been back since.

http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index.php?/topic/19621-roll-call-rainman/

Check out the last few pages. Apparently someone (hopefully ClearedHot himself) went back and un-deleted the posts.

We need "leaders" to participate on these forums... and we need them to be receptive to the fact that not everyone is going to agree with them.

[busdriver]

Ugh, the good General clearly said his advice was for a dude he thought wanted to compete for O-6. I think at that level an AAD is actually a good idea, obviously the box-check type degrees are dumb as shit and we can probably re-work the PME system to provide better education and a better built in AAD. He pointed out that Maul's leadership gave him shitty gouge and were being the very assholes we hate for pimping the AAD when Maul didn't need it just yet(at least for the reasons they were providing) but that in the end him grunting through that worthless degree he is actually better setup for promotion.

All that crap said, I think most of us are cranky about the AAD requirement not because we want to be O-6 or higher, it's because we want to serve out to 20 and the only way to ensure that is to make O-5 or roll the dice with continuation. This all comes back to how much room is there in the AF for terminal Majs and LtCols that still fly?

In the end, let's stop being so damn emotional about this, is the current system perfect? Not in a million years, so now that we have some actual senior dudes hanging out (gonna press the I believe button) why not offer up a better way of doing things that still builds future senior leaders without useless box checking?

Example: I've heard that due to funding only selects can expect to go to school for the near term, and only school grads can expect a staff. This is stupid and a waste of resources. School selects should not do correspondence and the resident program should be a blend of current program plus SAAS, following that dudes should do a fellowship type program and pop out the other end as the super brainiac thinkers. Non-selects do correspondence, then go to staff and come out the other end as the process dudes. In the end you have the fast burners that are the big idea guys, and the not so fast burners are the process guys who can make those ideas into reality.

Probably full of flaws, but it isn't bitching.

[GoAround]

Classy. I think we can close the book on this troll.

Nothing to see here...move along.

Concur. That was a serious case of Jekyll/Hyde.

[TheInner]

All that crap said, I think most of us are cranky about the AAD requirement not because we want to be O-6 or higher, it's because we want to serve out to 20 and the only way to ensure that is to make O-5 or roll the dice with continuation. This all comes back to how much room is there in the AF for terminal Majs and LtCols that still fly?

In the end, let's stop being so damn emotional about this, is the current system perfect? Not in a million years, so now that we have some actual senior dudes hanging out (gonna press the I believe button) why not offer up a better way of doing things that still builds future senior leaders without useless box checking?

busdriver, good post. One of the best things the Air Force could do is finally realize that of a squadron full of Capts, very few if any will become or want to be GOs so why must they all be pushed that way. The problem with ditching the leadership push is that although you may end up with a bunch of highly proficient pilots/WSOs/etc you still have a void in leadership. I'm all for a squadron commander being a full up tactical dude but leading as a mission commander in an LFE is a far stretch from leading a squadron. The stuff that has made my decision about signing the bonus or not tough is working for guys that can't lead that LFE and can't lead in the non-tactical environment either. I have worked for good and bad squadron commanders and the best are the guys that can still hold their own in the jet and/or prove they are trying to regain their old form as well as guys who actually try to empower the flight commanders and shop chiefs verse micro-manage and use them as OPR scribes.

[noumenon]

GC/Liquid,

Another point of view. Lot of talk about that bottom 25% being easy to identify...only easy to identify given the current performance measures and reward system. Lot of folks here agree that YES, it's easy to indentify that bottom. Rethink the whole performance measurement and reward system, and the bottom 25% will change. "The people who are closest to the work, know who's doing it". -Jack Welch. As a hook, this video mentions AWC...