PME and Career advice

[Guest THE10MAN]

..."An LC AC in the KC" Not a bad life!

Amen...I can remember a few. They mastered the ability to say "no" to squadron bullsh!t, and keep racking up the PIC hours on 2-3 locals per week and 1-2 trips per month, with a SWA rotation every now and then. The rest of us CGO's were jumping through our @sses to jockey for OPR bullets while they just kept on smiling and flying 'round the world. God I wanted to be them some days. I think they had some skeletons in their closet which kept them off the command train, but if so, then sign me up for some skeletons. They were probably the happiest O-5's in the AF.

[Guest SpectrePilot]

I should run a "Skeletons 101" course myself.

[Herk Driver]

Have been receiving some decent information as of late from the guys on the MAF DT's. I know this isn't exactly the right place for it, but not worth a new thread and fits about right here.

If you want to know one of the top factors for the MAF DT when they make vector decisions etc, it is pretty much keeping your preference worksheet (ADP) updated. The feedback that we continue to get is to have one in that is not older than 12 months. If you don't take care of yourself and you get screwed over, you have no one to blame but yourself. Hope this is helpful.

Here is the cut and paste from the email:

Ladies and Gentlemen,

As the Chair for the Mobility Air Forces Development Team (MAF DT), I would like to provide some feedback from the panel that met at AFPC from 14-17 April.

The DT reviewed 394 O-4 selects from the 1999-year group and provided them with a developmental vector and in most cases a skill pairing. These officers may see the DT input by reviewing their DT Vector in AMS. It will take roughly 4 weeks for AFPC to get these vectors uploaded into the system.

Below are some of the DT's observations and recommendations. Please feel free to share with your MAF rated officers in order to further educate them on the development process at this stage of their careers.

* Overall currency of ADPs has improved, but, 24% of the 1999-year group still had ADPs more than a year old -- several were over two years old.

* Many SURFs were not accurate, especially regarding the most current duty title -- members can check the accuracy of their records on-line.

* It is imperative that officers maintain a current ADP, and records in general, especially upon selection for promotion.

* The Development Preferences section of the ADP is where both the officer and reviewer can provide accurate input to the DT regarding professional goals and any career broadening opportunities that might be of interest.

* Recommended vectors from the reviewer are encouraged, however, real JCS and Air Staff Vectors are very scarce...please save those recommendations for your best and brightest.

* Additional factors the DT used to differentiate performance/potential include:

Consistent, and meaningful, stratification

Completion of advanced academic degree

Completion of PME

Weapons Instructor Course

Completion of DLAB and formal language training

Instructor duty in a MWS

I can't stress enough the importance of accurate records for these boards, especially for the upcoming Summer DT. The Summer MAF DT will be held in August '08 to provide IDE/SDE recommendations to the Developmental Education Designation Board (DEDB).

Many thanks to those who served on this DT, and a special thank-you to their Commanders who allowed them to attend. Any questions can be at

addressed to me, or my DT advisor, Maj xxx, at DSN 779-xxxx.

or

xxx@scott.af.mil.

V/R, Fred

FREDERICK F. ROGGERO, Maj Gen, USAF

Director of Air, Space, and Information Operations

[pawnman]

Apparently people are still required to do practice bleeding for SOS. No idea if it's stopped for ACSC or AWC.

[Herk Driver]

Apparently people are still required to do practice bleeding for SOS. No idea if it's stopped for ACSC or AWC.

No, it hasn't.

[pbar]

I was told that in order to be competitive to go to the Army/Navy/MC or foreign service ACSC-equivalent you are expected to have completed AF ACSC via correspondence before the IDE selection board. I did so and got picked up for a foreign ACSC. For what it's worth...

PBAR

[Guest Mike Brogan]

Apparently people are still required to do practice bleeding for SOS. No idea if it's stopped for ACSC or AWC.

I just had my first look for IDE and was told by two CCs in my chain of command that I had exactly a 0% chance of getting picked up for IDE in-residence until I had ACSC correspondence and master's degree completed. I'm about halfway through the ACSC-DL master's program...

[pawnman]

This discussion came up today, but...

Can anyone tell me how the USAF basically requires you to have a Master's to make Major, then sends you to ACSC, which will net you a Masters, AFTER you're a Major?

[old crow]

It does?

Last board selected 94.2% of eligible Captains. I'm guessing that of the 137 out of 2,348 who didn't make the cut, it wasn't because they didn't have a masters degree.

if memory serves, Master's Degree was masked for the 07 Major's board. Believe it will be unmasked starting this year.

[Danny Noonin]

if memory serves, Master's Degree was masked for the 07 Major's board. Believe it will be unmasked starting this year.

Masked or unmasked, it won't really matter. The AF isn't "requiring" masters for majors. The reason the promotion percentage is always around 95 is that they NEED that many majors. They will still need them, masters or not. Somehow, I'm thinking that for the 5% that don't make the cut, a masters wouldn't help anyway.

[Guest Mike Brogan]

This discussion came up today, but...

Can anyone tell me how the USAF basically requires you to have a Master's to make Major, then sends you to ACSC, which will net you a Masters, AFTER you're a Major?

Not required for Major. It could make the difference if you're borderline, but it doesn't really matter until your O-5 board. For the Major's board they look for SOS complete, no referral OPRs, and a pulse.

...that last item may be optional. Afterall, it is your records that get promoted.

[Herk Driver]

Not required for Major. It could make the difference if you're borderline, but it doesn't really matter until your O-5 board. For the Major's board they look for SOS complete, no referral OPRs, and a pulse.

...that last item may be optional. Afterall, it is your records that get promoted.

With Advanced Academic degrees being unmasked, one might expect that it will start making more of a difference. For those that were not around for when a Master's was basically required, the percentages were lower, but a Master's was a very big discriminator. The powers that be intend to get back to those days. In a world of basically paying people to get out and still needing to cut another 10K or so people, I wouldn't expect that 95% promotion opportunities would stick around for too long either. In a couple of years, I can see the Master's degree being back at the level that it once was (i.e. people without a Master's will find it difficult to get promoted).

[pbar]

A master's might not be required for making major officially and it might be masked but it's used for a lot of things that go into the major's promotion process. I've seen it used as a discriminator for picking who goes to SOS in residence, who gets a DP vice P for major, going to WS, CGO of the quarter/year, etc. If I were a young LT, I'd get a real master's while I was still a LT as a Plan B (I doubt an ACSC Master's is gonna help with the post-AF job search) and then if you get another along the way from the AF , than so be it. Just my two cents.

PBAR

[amcflyboy]

You know what they say....Majors are the butter bars of the field grade tier!!

[osulax05]

You know what they say....Majors are the butter bars of the field grade tier!!

A butterbar is a single turd, a gold oak leaf is a pile of shit

[BFM this]

This seemed like the most appropriate thread to revive for this question:

I'd like to start work toward ACSC Online Master's (the goal being to do the PME/Master's in one vul). Unfortunately, I'm not eligible.

Air University is offering an OLMP in a Leadership Concentration for which I am eligible. That course has the same Core Courses as the Joint Warfare Concentration (ACSC).

So my question is: Can I start work in the one Concentration, then transfer to the other once eligible?

The variable would be in what order the courses are completed and if I have any control over that. IE, if I can start with the Core Courses only, most of that work will be done when I'm eligible to do the Concentration Courses (ACSC vice Leadership). If they are "striped", then I'm doing a bunch of course work (Leadership Concentration) that doesn't gain ground toward the goal (I'll just get my Masters elsewhere and do ACSC when that time comes).

Just tryin to get ahead of the game a little.

Sidebar: anyone completed either OLMP? Feedback/review?

Edited August 25, 2010 by BFM this

[BONE WSO]

This seemed like the most appropriate thread to revive for this question:

I'd like to start work toward ACSC Online Master's (the goal being to do the PME/Master's in one vul). Unfortunately, I'm not eligible.

Air University is offering an OLMP in a Leadership Concentration for which I am eligible. That course has the same Core Courses as the Joint Warfare Concentration (ACSC).

So my question is: Can I start work in the one Concentration, then transfer to the other once eligible?

The variable would be in what order the courses are completed and if I have any control over that. IE, if I can start with the Core Courses only, most of that work will be done when I'm eligible to do the Concentration Courses (ACSC vice Leadership). If they are "striped", then I'm doing a bunch of course work (Leadership Concentration) that doesn't gain ground toward the goal (I'll just get my Masters elsewhere and do ACSC when that time comes).

Just tryin to get ahead of the game a little.

Sidebar: anyone completed either OLMP? Feedback/review?

I just started my second class in the leadership program. The first class was a core class for both programs but my current class is not. You fill out an email before the semester ranking which class you want to take with the classes you don't want to take towards the end. I put all the leadership classes last on my list and they assigned me to take a leadership class this semester. So I really don't think your plan would work without taking extra courses. I will say that my first class was pretty easy and somewhat interesting. It is also free and does not add any ADSC.

[BFM this]

I just started my second class in the leadership program. The first class was a core class for both programs but my current class is not. You fill out an email before the semester ranking which class you want to take with the classes you don't want to take towards the end. I put all the leadership classes last on my list and they assigned me to take a leadership class this semester. So I really don't think your plan would work without taking extra courses. I will say that my first class was pretty easy and somewhat interesting. It is also free and does not add any ADSC.

Great info, thanks.

I put the question to the registrar's office directly. They replied along the lines of: "No, Silly, you can't get TWO master's. DUH!"

The reply I sent back went something along the lines of:

-I'm trying to game the system, not get two master's.

-I know I'm not the first to come up with this idea, and I'll bet you're wise to it.

-Will I be allowed to game the system?

It's guys like me who probably got you that Leadership Concentration course right off the bat. YW.

Edited August 26, 2010 by BFM this

[LJ Driver]

All,

Now that 3849s are complete and signed by senior raters, curious to know if anyone has gouge on what means what. Is there a known code? I am guessing besides the 3849, board looks at ACSC correspondence, Masters degree, and last few OPRs. Stratification of "candidates" and "eligibles" perhaps? I am not a select, so what my SR states in his comments means something. Also, anyone have numbers of how many non-selects get selected on average? Thanks for the help.

[Herk Driver]

All,

Now that 3849s are complete and signed by senior raters, curious to know if anyone has gouge on what means what. Is there a known code? I am guessing besides the 3849, board looks at ACSC correspondence, Masters degree, and last few OPRs. Stratification of "candidates" and "eligibles" perhaps? I am not a select, so what my SR states in his comments means something. Also, anyone have numbers of how many non-selects get selected on average? Thanks for the help.

Part of this has been discussed elsewhere.

Depends on where you look and what you believe, but about 35% go to some form of IDE. 20% selects and 15% candidates.

Don't know exactly what the board looks at but what you put forth is probably a good start. I would think it is very much like a promotion board for data looked at. Stratification and whether you were recommended or not is alot of it, I would imagine.

Edit: Bad data

Edited April 1, 2011 by Herk Driver

[ClearedHot]

All,

Now that 3849s are complete and signed by senior raters, curious to know if anyone has gouge on what means what. Is there a known code? I am guessing besides the 3849, board looks at ACSC correspondence, Masters degree, and last few OPRs. Stratification of "candidates" and "eligibles" perhaps? I am not a select, so what my SR states in his comments means something. Also, anyone have numbers of how many non-selects get selected on average? Thanks for the help.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the rate for "non-select's" going to IDE INRES is much better than SDE which is only 2-3%. Non-selects typically have the best chance in their last look. As a Sq/CC I had two non-selects get picked up and both were in their second look, which at the time was highly unusual. As I recall they are trying to send IDE folks earlier and SDE folks later which may open the door for late look non-selects.

The board/DT looks at your entire record, SURF, and the most importantly...the strat on your 3849. Your Wing/CC usually gets at least one silver bullet that will be honored unless there is something bad in your background. Your individual circumstances will also affect your chances...if you were recently moved out of the squadron to the Grp or Wg, that is usually another message to the board.

Best of luck.

[Riebs]

How would a Ph.D from AFIT fit into ones career. I am a 2lt going through SUPT, currently holding a masters. At what point, if interested, would be a good time to apply to AFIT. Junior/senior captain, or sooner?

R

[Guest STOLSOONER!]

How would a Ph.D from AFIT fit into ones career. I am a 2lt going through SUPT, currently holding a masters. At what point, if interested, would be a good time to apply to AFIT. Junior/senior captain, or sooner?

R

Never, we are short too many pilots to let you go....sorry...Happy you have your masters but when we are cutting back on sending guys to staff because we need them in cockpit, I cant imagine sponsoring a guy to leave for AFIT...what would the payback be? What would I do with a guy in my squadron, pilot nonetheless, with a PHD? Not sure...Better to focus on your flying...upgrade to instructor, maybe even evaluator. Contribute the best you can where you are...

Don't worry about punching tickets to stratify yourself beyond getting your masters (which you have) and PME finished...

[Learjetter]

How would a Ph.D from AFIT fit into ones career. I am a 2lt going through SUPT, currently holding a masters. At what point, if interested, would be a good time to apply to AFIT. Junior/senior captain, or sooner?

R

Apply during or as soon as you return from your first combat tour as Flt Lead or AC. That'll demonstrate your minimum level of expertise in your primary AFSC and probably let you meet your first "flight pay" gate. Don't leave for AFIT until you've upgraded to instructor.

Yes, you've got a 10 year commitment from SUPT...but don't let anyone tell you you MUST spend those 10 yrs flying.

It's a big Air Force, with lots of very cool stuff to do...flying isn't for everyone. Get out of the cockpit as soon as you can and make room for someone who really wants to be there.

Technique only. Good luck.

[magnetfreezer]

How would a Ph.D from AFIT fit into ones career. I am a 2lt going through SUPT, currently holding a masters. At what point, if interested, would be a good time to apply to AFIT. Junior/senior captain, or sooner?

R

Look at TPS if qualified. Knew a couple fliers who got PHDs through AFIT after joining the test community.