Height issues

[Guest P27:17]

If you went to 3 more flight surgeons you might get 3 more different measurements (not knocking flt. docs here). AETC uses the consistent measurements from Brooks as the "Gold Standard" because of the many variations and discrepancies from the field. The fact that you know someone who is an inch shorter doesn't bolster your case...when you mention you are a "1/2 too short" that means you were measured at or around 33 and 1/2 inches...normally that alone is with in the waiverable window for AETC, BUT when combined with the other 7 measurements and put into the computer program at AETC (Safety), your measurements excluded you from most/all of the AF aircraft. Brooks is not authorized to remeasure you arbitrarily. Brooks would probably not turn you away if you showed up some Friday morning for retesting (it would be nice to let them know you are coming) but it would be at your or your detachment's cost.

[Guest el_kin]

PilotKD I did what you told me. Before I left to Field Training I send an email to my Detachment commander, I called him when I finished Field Training and he said " well we can't strech you out. In other words he said we can't do anything about it. He is not even trying to do something about it. Is there any other way I can go about this? Thank you for all your help also any advice would help.

At Field Training our FTU/CC is an F-16 pilot and I asked him and he said yes you can be a pilot. He told me about this girl that was in his Squadron who is 5'2 and he said she even had special shoes. The FTU/CC was the Squadron Commander at that time. PilotKD do you think I should ask him for any advice, or will that be bad going over my Det. Commander.

[Guest PilotKD]

Originally posted by P27:17:

PilotKD...sorry to hear about your ordeal. "Anthropometrics" as we know it today has only been around since 2001 and since you've been through it there have been some improvements in the process.

P27:17,

That's good to hear. I think the process could have only gotten better! :eek:

Originally posted by el_kin:

PilotKD I did what you told me. Before I left to Field Training I send an email to my Detachment commander, I called him when I finished Field Training and he said " well we can't strech you out. In other words he said we can't do anything about it. He is not even trying to do something about it. Is there any other way I can go about this? Thank you for all your help also any advice would help.

At Field Training our FTU/CC is an F-16 pilot and I asked him and he said yes you can be a pilot. He told me about this girl that was in his Squadron who is 5'2 and he said she even had special shoes. The FTU/CC was the Squadron Commander at that time. PilotKD do you think I should ask him for any advice, or will that be bad going over my Det. Commander.

el_kin,

Well, I'm not sure what to tell you besides, "Never take no for an answer" when it comes to crap like this until you have exhausted all resources because there is a waiver for everything. It all depends on who you know and how hard you press to get what you want.

Have you been measured before during ROTC yet? When they selected you for a slot, were you aware of the height requirements? The heartburn I had with the process was that I was given an A-OK for my FCI while I was in the application process for an OTS pilot slot (as a civilian) and then miraculously shrunk 3/4" at Brooks. I didn't even know Brooks existed until 2 weeks before I got commissioned. Of course, I wasn't worried about not meeting the height requirement because I had already passed both FCI sitting and standing heights by 1/2".

How is your sitting height? If you're good on one and not the other, it'll increase your chances of getting a waiver. If you fail both, it's going to make it a lot harder.

I know this may sound funny, but you CAN be stretched. Just talk to any chiropractor. I've heard of people hanging upside down for an hour everyday to stretch their spine. You are tallest in the morning after getting out of bed and can shrink 1/4" or so throughout the day from your weight compressing your spine. I never tried this, but I've heard it works. Had I known I was going to come up 3/10" short, I probably would have hung upside down for a week to avoid all the ass pain I went through.

You may want to explain to your Det commander that there is a waiver process for this that exists and you may require some assistance. You obviously worked hard enough to get the slot and he had to sign off on it, so for him to not give a $hit about would seem a bit strange. Is he a pilot? Doesn't sound like he is.

Regarding the girl that was 5'2", I don't doubt one bit that she got a waiver. I don't want to make this sound like I'm *****ing about a double standard, but it is easier for woman to get waivers in the military. I said before, it's who you know, how hard you press and sometimes it's what you have between your legs (or don't have between your legs). I also know that it's easier to get a waiver at the AFA for things like this. I've heard plenty of stories like that one and they all make me wonder. An OTS flightmate of mine was at Brooks with me that day and got DQ'd for a so-called heart defect. Needless to say it wasn't a great day for either of us. We both got $hitfaced downtown that night. He wound up reclassifying into another career field and I hadn't talked to him since. Well, about two months ago I ran into another OTS grad flying A-10's right now and he told me that this guy had gone to his own doctors, faught it, got re-evaluated and is now in UPT. I couldn't believe it. Good for him.

[Guest PilotKD]

I can relate to your situation. You may have read some of my previous posts about my experience with height waivers before because I went through the same thing 3 1/2 years ago, but for standing height by 3/10". Unfortunately, 1/2" is quite a bit and I would say that 1/2" of sitting height is a lot more significant than a few tenths of standing height. I know that when you DQ for anthropometrics, they take additional measurements on you in order to see if you can fly specific aircraft and justify giving you the waiver. If they have evaluated your measurements and denied your waiver, I think it's pretty much the end of the road. If you were marginal in any of the trainers, they would probably fit check you in one of them (most likely T-1's). If they've determined that you're "red" in the trainers, it pretty much means no UPT.

What is strange to me is that you just received word that you were disqualified. When I went through it, they told me that day. I guess they are doing things differently. What have you been doing in the mean time? Are you in the guard/reserves? If you're active duty, you may try looking into service transfers to the Navy/Marines. I believe their sitting/standing heights are lower than the Air Force and I actually considered it when I was having issues. Fortunately, I wound up getting the waiver and staying in the AF.

[Guest n1008]

Ok, I'm a first time poster. I did a search of this forum, but I could not find an answer to my problem. My problem is I'm 6'9'' with a 42 inch sitting height, and I need to know "Is there a height waiver if your sitting height is above 40 inches?" If so, has anybody here received one and what are the restrictions? I figure ejection seats are the problem, which I really am fine with as I want to fly heavies or helicopters. Thanks for any help.

[Guest Rage_:P]

P27:17 - can you give him a specific answer as to tracks?

Understand you don't want to fly a fighter. Your problem is...we don't start you out in a heavy or helicopter. You start out in 2-seat aircraft and move up. There has been a "track" system developed. In this system, you can be selected based on a number of measurements and then put in a track where you always fit in the seat.

This is one of those...you just gotta take the physical and find out.

[Guest P27:17]

n1008,

Unfortunately all roads to pilot training go through the T-6 and the max waiverable is 41.5 inches.

Your buttocks to knee (which wasn't posted) is another concern (max is 27 inches). You could see if

your unit will fund a trip to Brooks for measurements (or you can pay for it yourself)...probably not very cost effective. I'll attach the measurement sheets they use at Brooks. See if you can get the local medics to run you through them...if you're in the ball park, send them back in a PM and I'll get them looked at. If you're not the waiverable limits you just saved yourself a lot of money and aggravation

Anthro_Forms.doc

[BADFNZ]

I found this, but this wasn't the chart I was looking for. The one I remember was color coded based on what your sitting height was.

[Guest PilotKD]

What do the 4 columns on the right of that table signify?

[Guest P27:17]

What do the 4 columns on the right of that table signify?

I am not familiar with this chart...it looks pretty detailed but only focuses on the eye height. For FC 1 standards you must be between 34 and 40 inches from buttocks to the top of the head...anything above or below the standard will require a waiver and a total of 8 measurements. The measurements are given to AETC Safety and put into a computer program that has all the cockpit measurements and a waiver recommendation/track will come from this process and sent to AETC medical folks for waiver certification.

[BADFNZ]

What do the 4 columns on the right of that table signify?

My guess is that is the percentage that comply with that requirement.

[Guest littlebitak]

I know my audience is mainly a pilot community; but I've not been able to find answers elsewhere.

Do any of you know if these height requirements are the same for Navs and ABMs?

(Read: Do you know/fly with a lot of short Navs and ABMs?)

I'm 62" tall and hoping to apply to the rated board for Nav/ABM; but if I'm too short and waivers are rare, I'd rather not waste someone else's slot if I'll just be kicked back into the civilian world. 2" under the requirement seems like a lot...

I've been able to find Nav height requirements online (64" as well...) but again, I'm unclear on the possibility for a waiver for this.

I've had no luck finding a height requirement for ABM, but I don't want to assume that there is none.

I appreciate any help, and I apologize for any incoherence in my post...it's late and I should be asleep!

[Guest P27:17]

My guess is that is the percentage that comply with that requirement.

You'll be fine for a waiver...they'll waive as low as 60 for ABM.

[Guest littlebitak]

Thank you...

I did find an AFI (AFI 48-123 v3, attachment 4) which says:

A4.30. Height and Weight.

A4.30.1. Flying Class II/III.

A4.30.1.1. Height.

A4.30.1.1.1. Height less than 64 inches or more than 77 inches. Waivers may be considered

when appropriate based on crew position. Note: RPA/Sensor operators, Weapons Controllers/

Directors, Combat Control, Pararescue and Air Battle Managers have no standard.

A4.30.1.1.2. Minimum functional reach for aeromedical evacuation duties is 76 inches,

regardless of height.

This is current as of June of 2006. I've not been able to find a more recent AFI reg, so I'm hoping this holds true.

**AFI Reg is attached as a PDF file...

AFI48_123v3.pdf

[afnav]

I'm 78".

ABMs only have the Flying Class III requirement, which is the Air Force height requirement. I think it's 6'9.

Pilots and navs have the requirement for ejection seats, the T-37 in particular. All I know is that my head would have acted as the canopy piercer. I only had 7 or 8 rides, so it didn't matter much.

The BUFF has a minimum and maximum weight requirement, but I've never heard of a height requirement. I would have ejected down, so I would probably have been 78 1/2" by the time the process ended.

[Guest ShaneTrain24]

Ok, considering I've just gone through all this, I'll chime in. The way it works is that for your DODMERB, if it says you are taller or shorter (in my case) then the min or max height then you can't go up for the pilot board. The way I had to work around this is by going to your DODMERB physician and getting remeasured and submitting that paperwork to your NCOIC stating that you are within the height standards. They then upload that information in WINGS and you are PPQ or PNQ. From there, you go up to the board and assuming you get selected, you go to Brooks and they measure you. If you are too tall or short, they do about 7 other measurements on you in a very precise looking chair. From there, (in my case again) they sent me an email about 2 weeks later saying I have to get fitted in 5 different airframes (on my own dime) and then they would put a waiver through. Bottom line: you need to make sure that you are PPQ in DODMERB before you can even think about/allowed to go to Brooks for your medical. This is the ROTC route, but I bet you can get some information from it on how to get a waiver on your end. PM me if you have any questions and I'll try to answer them.

[Riddller]

A dude who started in my class (he got rolled back a couple, but is still flying and doing well) is 6'11". He couldn't go to IFS at Pueblo because he couldn't fit in the DA-20, so did IFS in a Cessna near Vance. There were two guys in my IFS class who were 6'5" or 6'6" and both graduated. The 6'11" dude had to get an extra check-out from the flight-doc at the beginning of T-6's, and was told if he ejected, he'd probably lose his knee-caps. He's currently about a third of the way through T-1's. If he can do it, anybody can!!

[Bronco130]

http://aviationmedicine.com/resources/file...Guide%20PDF.pdf

page 29. Answer's every question imaginable about height/weight wavers.

[SemperSicEm]

So the AF minimum height requiements to be a pilot are 64" standing height and 34" sitting height. The incompetent civilian docs who did my DoDMERB (I'm an AF brat so I have always gone to the flight docs so I wasn't sure of these professionals) didn't list my sitting height correctly. I went and talked to my det commander and he measured me at 34.5" sitting height and I have measured it several times more and found the same result. He said that would be the only thing DQing me from competing for a slot, but didn't really tell me what to do to change it. Does anyone out there know what you have to do to get this changed? I'm about a year and a half away from putting together all my stuff to submit for a pilot's slot but would like to get this taken care of before heading off to Field Training.

[Wolf424]

So the AF minimum height requiements to be a pilot are 64" standing height and 34" sitting height. The incompetent civilian docs who did my DoDMERB (I'm an AF brat so I have always gone to the flight docs so I wasn't sure of these professionals) didn't list my sitting height correctly. I went and talked to my det commander and he measured me at 34.5" sitting height and I have measured it several times more and found the same result. He said that would be the only thing DQing me from competing for a slot, but didn't really tell me what to do to change it. Does anyone out there know what you have to do to get this changed? I'm about a year and a half away from putting together all my stuff to submit for a pilot's slot but would like to get this taken care of before heading off to Field Training.

Similar thing happened to me. They listed mine as 44" (I'm not eight feet tall) and I think the max was 40, or something like that. Nevertheless, I went to the NCOs at the det. and they made an appointment for me on base. All they did was redo the sitting height, I was measured correctly and I heard nothing more about it. I wouldn't sweat it. Talk to the NCOs, they should be able to help.

[aquajam77]

Hello,

I am 6'6" and obviously an inch too tall, but I am planning on getting a waiver to try and fly heavies (c-17, C-5). I want to figure out if I will be able to fit in the cockpits of these aircraft (or any others I can fit in) in order to become a pilot. I am currently a sophomore in high school, and I want to try to get into the academy. Is there any way that I can go about to try and arrange an appointment with someone to do a cockpit check, or should I wait until i possibly get accepted to see if I can fit into a cockpit of any plane?

[brabus]

Aqua...I think you're getting ahead of yourself a little. You still have 5 yrs until you even get to the point of getting a slot or not. Work at getting into the AFA or getting a ROTC scholarhip and then start worrying about the height thing when you get closer to the medical stuff. You probably will have to work a waiver, but that's not something you can do until you're at least a cadet and "in the system." I think physically you would be able to fly most, if not all heavies, but I can't say what the AF rule nazis opinions are on the matter.

[aquajam77]

So with my height issues and wanting to become a pilot going through either the Academy or ROTC, I have been wondering for a while if there is a way to get a waiver before I incur active duty service time. I have read that for the Academy, they do FC I measurements in the junior year, so if I could not get a waiver, I would still have to be on AD after I graduate. If I go through ROTC and have a contract, I have to go on AD also, although I don't know when you get measured for a FC I in ROTC, if that is before you get a contact or not.

Now I'm not opposed to being on AD in the AF if I cannot be a pilot, but becoming one is mainly my reasons for considering joining. If I could not pass a FC I and was on AD doing something that I could have been able to do without being in the AF, I would like to be able to consider my opportunities before I make a final decision about joining the AF.

[Guest Mainak]

I havent gotten my measurements taken yet (although the rest of my FC1A is done) so I am terrified about this height issue. I am 5'3" and I am almost certain that I will come up short in terms of sitting height. My question is how much is the rest of the package considered when it comes to the waiver? I mean I got a 97/95/94/98/97 on my AFOQT, and I know those scores wont cushion my head when I slam into the canopy while ejecting or help me rudder when I cant quite reach but does it make the AF work harder to get you in? I got my CSO slot in 10-1 and I was giddy with excitement. Now Im just scared out of my mind. Please help =[

[OL Patch]

Understand the angst, but thought I'd share a funny story--circa--1983 timeframe:

--Back then you got your physical at the closest USAF base, in this case for Oklahoma State cadets, Vance. We had a guy with a pilot slot who was 5'3 and 3/4". No kidding, the flight surgeon said to get some of those gravity boots, hang upside down, and then have your buddies load you in a car/truck and drive you over for the physical. On the big day, we loaded him in the back of a pickup with a bed topper on a piece of plywood with a mattress and made the trek from Stillwater to Enid. We told the flt doc when we arrived and he let us carry him in for the measurement as the first thing. Don't know how many hours he hung upside down in the weeks preceeding..but he came in at 5'4. Went on to fly Vipers.....back in the day!

retguy

DISCLAIMER...this won't work today of course.

Edited January 19, 2010 by retguy