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Non-Availibility lodging/letter

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Just left PIT and it's not just being used to prevent people from getting full perdiem. Even if your plan is to refuse govt quarters and go to a PIT pad at the exact same cost to Uncle Sam, commanders are forbidding it and referencing this letter. Finance guy, is that legit?

I'm not really sure without reading the exact intent of the letter mentioned. It appears this is getting into JA's territory as the JFTR's purpose is to spell out entitlements and just reimbursements, not to delve into Leadership's abiltiy to command the troops. The JFTR does not forbid a CC from ordering someone to stay on-base--the JFTR does say that available on-base facilities should be used. I think the paragraph below allows a CC to "order" a military member to utilize Gov't QTRs--it is from U1045.A.2.

Now if someone refused that direction, the JFTR goes on to allow reimbursement up to the Gov't QTRs cost (U1045.A.4), but will not address any repercussions the member may receive by not obeying the AO's direction (AO could be the Commander). That is a matter for the JA to address. All I can address is if you turned in a voucher claiming apartment rent along with a letter from the CC ordering you to stay on base, the JFTR allows FM to still reimburse up to what the Gov't QTRs cost would have been.

U1045.A.2:

2. The AO may direct adequate (based on DoD and Service standards) available GOV’T QTRS use for a uniformed member on (not near) a U.S. INSTALLATION only if the uniformed member is TDY to that U.S. INSTALLATION. (DOHA Claims Case No. 2009-CL-080602.2, 7 July 2010).

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Fellas that is my exact point. I provide a 1900 SQ ft house that far exceeds the quality of life of the rooms on base. The whole point I set the house up like this (for the same amount of money I could have financed 2 houses for cash-flow that exceeds the pit pad). The lodging has been remodeled but it still sucks. Other than having the students complain on critiques, there is no solution if it is legal. If it is not, I would like to politely have the OG just back off enforcing the policy. I am just trying to figure out if it is a JAG question of legal one. I believe it is a legal one from the finance guys I have talked to. I just don't know the JAGs here or feel comfortable talking to them about it here. I am trying to help bros out. But I will be shutting it down to keep me from going in the red. It just sucks because the leadership yet again finds a way to screw the average guy/gal.

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Fellas that is my exact point.

RB - I don't think they're out to get you, I think they're out to get the folks who try to scam the system by waiting to check in until a non-A is inevitable. If what you're doing is legit, have a talk with your Sq/CC. Explain to him your situation and ask him to explain it to the OG/CC. If what you're doing is legit, I don't think anybody would have an issue with you collecting the standard per diem rate for putting folks in lodging.

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All they are doing is making long term, far-from-arrival reservations for students; that's not illegal. The studs can refuse quarters there, unless there is a force protection/anti-terrorism issue which the CC directs them to stay on-base. That way the reservation was done, studs must decline quarters to get into your PIT pad, and then studs are only reimbursed up to the on-base lodging rate. It limits the cost liability of the USAF. That's not illegal. The CC directing everyone to stay on-base no matter what is a shade of gray. That's is covered neither in AFI 34-246 (Lodging) nor in the JFTR, perhaps try the AFI 36-series (personnel). AFI 65-103 (TDY Orders) covers some non-uses of government quarters but not your situation.

What you're doing is not illegal unless you're double charging guys for the same room or not following the long-term procurement of lodging conditions while TDY (reference JFTR Chapter 4) and the studs are claiming it; that's embezzlement.

Edited by Swizzle

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Stop claiming to be doing this in the best interests of PIT dudes when you could have "made more" getting two houses and renting them traditionally. ~$40/day for a 3 br house equates to $3600/mo for one house, probably more than the combined rent you'd see from two houses rented traditionally, and you only had to buy one house, not two! Now I realize occupancy is not always 100% and you pay the utilities (deductible BTW) but owning a PIT pad is still more lucrative than renting the house traditionally. That is, if people are allowed to stay there.

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Stop claiming to be doing this in the best interests of PIT dudes when you could have "made more" getting two houses and renting them traditionally.

2

It would not be wise to tell the OG you don’t like his policy, when your main concern is with how the policy is impacting your private venture. Are you really that worried about PIT studs quality of housing? I imagine you are only as concerned as required to keep your house full on a regular basis. Like with many things in life, it really appears to be about the bottom line.

I understand your irritation but don’t think it is a valid argument to take to the OG. There will still certainly be folks with Non-A that will require a place to stay, perhaps just not as many as you are used to. While I don’t think you should take this to the OG, I do hope things work out for you in the long run.

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So I find myself siting in yet another Billeting office waiting for their computers to "come back up"...supposedly they have been down since last night across the country, so no one can check in. What's the threshold for pain until I demand a non availability statement. I figured I will give them until check in time (1400)... This is the second time this has happened to me in the last two months, the last time it was down for three days.

After sitting patiently for 2 hours, I kindly asked for my 4th update, 30 minutes after they said the computers would originally be back up. All off a sudden they determined that it was indeed possible to check someone in without a computer. "So," I must ask, "Why could you have not done this 2 hours ago?"... "Well we have to have special approval from a supervisor to check folks in without the computer". I just smiled and walked away (my logical follow-up question would have gone no where as well).

I know we don't have to run things like a commercial outfit, but I guarantee Holiday Inn would find a quicker way to take my money without a computer.

In regards to their "software", that has gone down yet again, when will the military/government/decision makers learn that a single central database for ANYTHING is pretty stupid. At least allow for a local back up system, so the mission doesn't stop when "the Internets" no work. Every few years it seems, someone believes that "this time" they can do it right.

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I'm PCSing shortly, and TLF space isn't available for my entire 30 day period of TLF request. Lodging, of course, wants to break up my stay into three reservation periods where only one would be non-avalible. I'm all for saving money, but that means packaging up my family post-PCS two more times than is really needed. Anybody deal with this before?

Edited by Dupe

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Read the rest of this thread - they can't do that (or rather, you don't need to accept it). If they give you a non-A, it is good for the remainder of your stay - it cannot be dated for a specific time period, according to the JFTR. They can get you to move in to the TLF if there are rooms available, but once they move you out with a non-A, you don't have to move back.

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Yeah...this is slightly different than the standard "TDY for a formal course" type question that's come up in the thread already. I've read the rest of the thread and the JFTR. Once I am at my new base and the TLE entitlement spelled out in the JFTR expires (only 10 days...used on either side for CONUS to CONUS) expires, it seems to me that the JFTR doesn't apply any more with my travel being complete and I'm purely within the realm of AF finance/services rules. My reading of 34-246 doesn't clear up the issue either.

Edited by Dupe

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Details are lacking but if this is a TDY to school.

3.2.1.2. Managers must maximize the use of on base lodging. This means that managers may require students to be lodged both on and off base during the course of their TDY, provided stu- dents are only moved once and the length of stay in both locations is at least 5 days. For example, if students arrive and space is available for the first 5 days on base and the length of the TDY is 10 days, managers must place the students on base and then move them to off base lodging for the remaining 5 days. Students must receive 24-hour notice of any move on or off base.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi34-246/afi34-246.pdf#page35

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Yeah...this is slightly different than the standard "TDY for a formal course" type question that's come up in the thread already. I've read the rest of the thread and the JFTR. Once I am at my new base and the TLE entitlement spelled out in the JFTR expires (only 10 days...used on either side for CONUS to CONUS) expires, it seems to me that the JFTR doesn't apply any more with my travel being complete and I'm purely within the realm of AF finance/services rules. My reading of 34-246 doesn't clear up the issue either.

U2570 A (2). Don't even bother asking them for a Non-A. You called, and lodging wasn't available. Just get a name.

-or-

U2570 A (3). Go in the day of, and if they don't have a room, write up your own quick MFR.

If you haven't read the JFTR CH 1-5, you are doing yourself a huge disservice. I assure you, the finance 2-striper has not.

11-217, 11-2MDS-Vol3, 11-202, JFTR. All required reading for pilots.

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Dupe, as I recall, once your TLE period ends, you only get BAH after that. So you can stay wherever you want, because you won't actually get reimbursed anything else.

  • Upvote 1

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Details are lacking but if this is a TDY to school. 3.2.1.2. Managers must maximize the use of on base lodging. This means that managers may require students to be lodged both on and off base during the course of their TDY, provided stu- dents are only moved once and the length of stay in both locations is at least 5 days. For example, if students arrive and space is available for the first 5 days on base and the length of the TDY is 10 days, managers must place the students on base and then move them to off base lodging for the remaining 5 days. Students must receive 24-hour notice of any move on or off base. http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi34-246/afi34-246.pdf#page35
JFTR trumps an AFI

Where is it shown that JFTR trumps AFI? Need some more ammo dealing with lodging and AETC in my situation. The skinny is am at formal training course from now (course started yesterday)till Sept, am under AETC funded TDY-to-School. Given a non-a for 8 days when I got here along with a reservation at billeting on May 8th. Lodging is doing their research but I have a feeling will not budge in rewriting the non-a for the entire time. Asked finance here and confirmed that I should be in the right (staying off base entire time reguardless of what they put on the non-a letter) but suggessted that if anyone in my command (commander, shirt, AO, RA) tells me to move back on base then I should heed it. Advice?

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Where is it shown that JFTR trumps AFI?

Maybe the fact that it's a JOINT reg... As in, above the Departments of the Army, Navy, and Air Force...

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They are correct that your commander can order you to move back on base. He doesn't need an AFI or JFTR to do that. But if he hasn't issued guidance and it's just the random receptionist at Lodging that's giving you issues, then ignore them and stay off base. Remember that Lodging doesn't pay your travel voucher, Finance does.

I wouldn't worry about getting the Non-A rewritten. If you read the JFTR you'll see that you only need proof that there were no rooms available on base for Day 0 when you asked for a reservation. If that's not good enough, then just write your own MFR as mentioned above.

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I have always been paid properly by finance when using the "temporary" lodging non-A for the entire TDY.

The JFTR is the law as passed by congress and set by DOD. It absolutely trumps AFIs. It likely says something to that effect in the preamble.

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Lodging will complain to your squadron who will then order you back on base.

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If they know your squadron...

"Hi I'm here TDY on orders, do you have a room for the next 69 days?"

"Well, we have one week here, then one week at the roach motel, then One week in a van down by the river ...."

"Thanks... And your name is?"

"Amn douchenozzle"

Then you walk out and have all the information and justification to legally claim non-a. The JFTR even specifically uses that scenario as a discussion point for non-a justifications.

/edits autocorrect boolsheet

Edited by HossHarris
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If they know your squadron...

"Hi I'm here TDY on orders, do you have a room for the next 69 days?"

"Well, we have one week here, then one week at the roach motel, then One week in a van down by the river ...."

"Thanks... And your name is?"

"Amn douchenozzle"

Then you walk out and have all the information and justification to legally claim non-a. The JFTR even specifically uses that scenario as a discussion point for non-a justifications.

/edits autocorrect boolsheet

So what happens when the FTU SQ/CC orders you back on base after your legal non-a?

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So what happens when the FTU SQ/CC orders you back on base after your legal non-a?

Why would he? Unless he is SQ/CC douchenozzle...

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The way to handle this is just like everybody has said. Get a non-a or document it yourself and don't interact with lodging again. Don't get upset and make a scene or give them reason to "punish" you for being a jerk. If you are worried about a cc ordering you back on base then go the route of an MFR and don't ever mention your squadron to lodging.

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Thanks for all the advice in this. I am going to lay low, and if it comes to the point that the leadership here knows about it and talks to me about it/orders me , I will just move back on. Don't think its worth it considering this is a new career field and I dont want to make a name for myself right off the bat.

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The JFTR is the law as passed by congress and set by DOD. It absolutely trumps AFIs. It likely says something to that effect in the preamble.

This. Read the JFTR and the intro to it. It has the force of Public Law.

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