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Navigator/CSO future


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PCola isnt headed towards the traditional "tracked" syllabus like it was at Randolph. They are planning on doing a top off program. A couple weeks before you graduate, all graded material is done and graduation is assured but you pair off after your drop according to your airframe. If you're headed to 130s, you're going to be doing enroute navigation, using your wiz wheel, etc. EWO? Beeps and squeaks for a few weeks. Strike? Playing video games.

Ugh. Fucking band-aid. I know how much I paid attention in the "top off" program at Randolph when I knew it was not graded and I couldn't fail. The way I see it they have two choices. Choice A is a track select, and choice B is getting the FTU's to teach things the way they want to teach em. Both ways would get a lot more buy in than a "top off" program.

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They've been going back and forth on that. The whole reason the entire Nav program moved to NAS was to be a joint training program with the Navy. That has completely fallen apart due to the fact that the Navy isn't as crazy about graduating X students every D days. A lot of FTUs are upset cause CSOs are turning out to be jacks of all trades and masters of none, so they've been thinking about going back to the previous tracked model where only strikers go to NAS, but I don't know if they'll switch back so soon. After all, the career field is only about 2 years old. To be honest, I like being a CSO, and my FTU figured out the benefits of CSOs pretty quickly. I don't know if the EWO community is as happy though.

How did being a CSO actually help at little rock? I can't imagine how not being as focused on nav stuff will help you get through there easier, or be a benefit. Not saying there is no benefit, but please illuminate. Or do you mean that it is easier to recode people if they are all CSO?

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What I know is that Randolph guys trying to go from AMC to ACC are being blocked because they arent considered "CSOs". Not really sure why, but that's what's going on right now.

That's a new one. And it makes no sense if going to HC's, because they'd rather have the guys that went through Randolph than Pensacola. I could see it if trying to go to ACC for F-15s.

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Ah that makes sense, cause I know while I was at little rock they were thinking about adding in a two week course at the beginning. Makes sense to just tack it on at pcola. I don't think it's that necessary, but if the FTUs want it, might as well

I could see it if trying to go to ACC for F-15s.

Yea that's what I meant. Sorry should've qualified that.

How did being a CSO actually help at little rock? I can't imagine how not being as focused on nav stuff will help you get through there easier, or be a benefit. Not saying there is no benefit, but please illuminate. Or do you mean that it is easier to recode people if they are all CSO?

It's not the EWO or the WSO training that helped that much. What really helped was how we were pretty much co-pilots during the T-1 phase. Things like CRM, being directive with a crew, and time control techniques really paid dividends on the LRF flight line.

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Ignore drewpey...the AFSOC brainwashing does a decent job of turning a lot of good folks into complete douches. As a complete generality they have a "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality. Not a personal attack on anyone in AFSOC, as I have a lot of buddies both who are converts and guys I've met through testing. It's a top down thing that permeates from the leadership. I understand why, as they are focused on getting the mission accomplished, and it's a very different type of mission than what folks from the slick world are used to. But everything is mission, mission, mission, with pretty much zero emphasis on family or anything that gets in the way of the mission (including test). Again, this the perspective of someone only on the fringe of the community.

Back on topic, if you like the herk, want to stay employed and avoid Cannon, look into the HC-130J. As a nav that goes back and forth between slicks and J's, I love the J. Right now the HC is exactly the same as the MC (until AFSOC gets TF and other goodies), still get to do LL, airdrop, add air refueling, while being stationed at either DM, Moody or Kirtland. The only guys I know are the operational test and schoolhouse guys, but from what I've seen, they're a lot more laid back and all love doing rescue.

Your other option is go to one of the TFI slick units. I don't see those going away anytime soon.

As a very new rescue guy (finished HC-130P pipeline recently and am now at Moody) my impression so far is pretty much the same as what you have gathered from the guys you know. I noticed the attitude difference when I was at kirtland. I chose rescue for the mission, but have come to absolutely love the community as well.

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I went through UNT many years before you and I saw the writing on the wall then...it's not like the J model surprised us all.

Agreed.

I saw the first J-Model fly in from Marietta to KLRF back in 2004. I watched almost every FE and Nav walk out of a Commander's Call in the 61st when the Sq/CC (a Nav himself) announced the J-Model's future at the base. If you selected slicks AFTER 2004 out of UNT, didn't get a TFI unit or AFSOC, you should've known the writing was on the wall.

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Agreed. I saw the first J-Model fly in from Marietta to KLRF back in 2004. I watched almost every FE and Nav walk out of a Commander's Call in the 61st when the Sq/CC (a Nav himself) announced the J-Model's future at the base. If you selected slicks AFTER 2004 out of UNT, didn't get a TFI unit or AFSOC, you should've known the writing was on the wall.

To be fair, this is very easy to say for someone that has been in the AF a lot longer than I have. Everyone who went through UCT at Pcola knows how much of an SA black hole it is. Yea, maybe I should have done more research, but how many J-model announcements had been even projected for LRF, Petersen, or Pope? J-models have been on the horizon for quite some time, and considering how slowly the AF moves on everything else, I really didnt expect it to become a problem for at least another PCS. I just hope that the instructors at Pcola figured it out sooner than I did and started discouraging people from putting Hercs on their dream sheets (except to TFI units).

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To be fair, this is very easy to say for someone that has been in the AF a lot longer than I have. Everyone who went through UCT at Pcola knows how much of an SA black hole it is. Yea, maybe I should have done more research, but how many J-model announcements had been even projected for LRF, Petersen, or Pope? J-models have been on the horizon for quite some time, and considering how slowly the AF moves on everything else, I really didnt expect it to become a problem for at least another PCS. I just hope that the instructors at Pcola figured it out sooner than I did and started discouraging people from putting Hercs on their dream sheets (except to TFI units).

I just returned from the FTU at little rock to Pensacola, to sit casual until my follow on training at Kirtland, and they aren't dropping slicks anymore and haven't been for the last several classes. The only guys going to little rock from Pensacola are ECs,HCs,MCs, and of course guard and reserve guys.

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It's not the EWO or the WSO training that helped that much. What really helped was how we were pretty much co-pilots during the T-1 phase. Things like CRM, being directive with a crew, and time control techniques really paid dividends on the LRF flight line.

Dude, you've gotta stop hating on your job. There are already enough copilots on the plane.

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Dude, you've gotta stop hating on your job.

...not hating on my job, simply commenting on how the program is structured in Pensacola. How am I hating on my job saying that the WSO training at Pensacola isnt relevant to being a nav on slicks?

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  • 1 year later...

Hope people are still following this thread!

Random question: I heard that they were giving CSOs opportunities to do an ALO tour. Is this true? And if so can anyone provide more information on it?

Thanks.

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Hope people are still following this thread!

Random question: I heard that they were giving CSOs opportunities to do an ALO tour. Is this true? And if so can anyone provide more information on it?

Thanks.

"Opportunities." Yes, if you are a rated officer you are liable to do an ALFA tour at some point... That could include being a CSO instructor at Pensacola or being an ALO somewhere (I know strike guys were preferred, but as of a few years ago they were still taking people from anywhere... to include E-3/E-8/RC-135). F-15E/B-1B WSOs can also do tours in the Growler, but it's extremely limited and I don't know if it gets you ALFA credit.

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What is an Alpha your exactly, an assignment out of your MWS?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A.L.F.A - AETC, Lead-in Fighter Training (IFF), Forward Air Controller, Air Liaison Officer

It's a bit anachronistic, & the FAC job has been largely replaced by RPAs, but the ALFA tour is still very much a thing.

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=64462

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