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Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

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Ok, I'll be the dick and ask the question. I get the job that WSOs do in the Mudhen and Buff, but why the outcry for the rest of them?  I know a C-130 nav who openly admits that a tight platform makes their primary job irrelevant. Is there demand for 12X outside the AF?  Is this bonus anger about "fairness" or supply/demand?

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3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

A good U-28 CSO is worth their weight in gold

 In that case I'll alert my bank to expect an incoming wire of $3,431,764.34 very soon :flag_waving:

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:
3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:
A good U-28 CSO is worth their weight in gold

But do we need to financially incentivize then to stay?

There is a 12S bonus, so the AF says yes. My opinion is that all bonuses should have been open to free agents from the start rather than just FY17 UFT-expiring folks, so while I'm glad they're adjusting for some bonus tiers, I'd like to see that apply across the board. 

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3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:
3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:
A good U-28 CSO is worth their weight in gold

But do we need to financially incentivize then to stay?

People need to realize there is more outside the AF than just the airlines.  I know of several former Nav/WSOs that got out and are working for Fortune 500 companies making more than a commercial pilot ever will, though they do work more than half the month.

The cost to train an F-15E WSO is only different from pilots in UPT vs UNT and a few TR sorties in the B-course.  Everything else is the same, for the millions invested a financial incentive makes sense to retain 12Fs.  Especially the instructor corps that is badly undermanned, but since AFPC doesn't see the difference between an MQ student and an evaluator, they say their manning is fine, undermanned, but fine.  

The real issue here is when people say it isn't about the money, they mean it isn't just about the money.  Now that the AF has decided to use money as a show of relative value, the 12Fs are rightfully feeling extremely undervalued compared to us vaunted 11Fs.  This crisis has a lot of push and pull factors.  The airline pull may not be there, but there is certainly the AF push of 60-hr workweeks, lack of mission focus, endless queep and the joke of mission support.  

I'm frankly surprised we get any WSOs to stay past their initial commitment.  Since most are still under 30 when their commitment is up, I'd bail and go get a top-tier education and kill it in the business world.  

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4 hours ago, ViperStud said:

Ok, I'll be the dick and ask the question. I get the job that WSOs do in the Mudhen and Buff, but why the outcry for the rest of them?  I know a C-130 nav who openly admits that a tight platform makes their primary job irrelevant. Is there demand for 12X outside the AF?  Is this bonus anger about "fairness" or supply/demand?

What is a tight platform?

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1 hour ago, gearpig said:

What is a tight platform?

Poor choice of words for a well-aligned INS. Standing by for NSFW pics to illustrate my point. 

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12 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

24?

No.  4.  1,2,3...4.  Only one at Dyess.

 

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8 hours ago, ViperStud said:

Ok, I'll be the dick and ask the question. I get the job that WSOs do in the Mudhen and Buff, but why the outcry for the rest of them?  I know a C-130 nav who openly admits that a tight platform makes their primary job irrelevant. Is there demand for 12X outside the AF?  Is this bonus anger about "fairness" or supply/demand?

We do a similar job to the BUFF EWO and the F-15E WSO in the B-1.  We run the radar and the Sniper pod, lase the GBU-54s into the movers, talk to the JTACs, and running the jamming/chaff/flare/decoy systems.

A bigger picture thought is this, though...think about all those staff jobs and deployments that require a rated officer.  As you draw down 12X out of the Air Force, it necessarily means more 11X have to fill those staff billets/deployments/taskers.  Just food for thought.

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8 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:
8 hours ago, BashiChuni said:
A good U-28 CSO is worth their weight in gold

But do we need to financially incentivize then to stay?

WSOs are bailing from my community at an even greater rate than pilots.  Usually at the same point as well...about 10 years.  Turns out, there are plenty of jobs on the outside with someone who has aviation experience, an electronic warfare background, and a security clearance.

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WSOs are bailing from my community at an even greater rate than pilots.  Usually at the same point as well...about 10 years.  Turns out, there are plenty of jobs on the outside with someone who has aviation experience, an electronic warfare background, and a security clearance.
Thanks, that's what I was wondering. Then it all adds up. They should be giving you bonuses, so of course they aren't.

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4 hours ago, pawnman said:

No.  4.  1,2,3...4.  Only one at Dyess.

 

 

8 hours ago, HossHarris said:

4!=4x3x2x1=24

math nerd joke. 

Lighten up. 

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On 8/4/2017 at 0:10 PM, nsplayr said:

The bonus PSDM was corrected again today (change 3) and now includes bonus options for non-contracted and contract-expired aviators. Maybe someone out there is listening finally...

The other big change is that those 11R & 11H Early Enrollee pilots (who are eligible for the Bonus in FY17 but signed the paperwork in FY16) will now be allowed to sign for the new/higher bonus amount without incurring the additional one year ADSC that SAF/GC was demanding.  Whoever is working in 11R/11H at A3 deserves all the handles of Jack that they are about to receive for fixing the "Bonus Shenanigans" for these pilots.

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19 hours ago, ViperStud said:

Ok, I'll be the dick and ask the question. I get the job that WSOs do in the Mudhen and Buff, but why the outcry for the rest of them?  I know a C-130 nav who openly admits that a tight platform makes their primary job irrelevant. Is there demand for 12X outside the AF?  Is this bonus anger about "fairness" or supply/demand?

I don't know a single RC-135 EWO that has struggled to find a comparable salary job on the outside.  Even the guys that got RIFd a few years ago.

Many of these guys are just as highly trained as pilots.  The training pipeline is probably longer honestly.  They just don't have the airline pull.  But they do have striped polo shirts, leather weave belts, velcro shoes, and cell phone holsters.  So they've got that going for them. 

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The cost to train an F-15E WSO is only different from pilots in UPT vs UNT and a few TR sorties in the B-course.  Everything else is the same, for the millions invested a financial incentive makes sense to retain 12Fs.   


I always thought they trained the pilot and got the wso for free...
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1 hour ago, Bergman said:

 But they do have striped polo shirts, leather weave belts, velcro shoes, and cell phone holsters.  So they've got that going for them. 

Which is nice.

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10 hours ago, Bergman said:

Many of these guys are just as highly trained as pilots. 

So they're interchangeable then?  if the pilot doesn't show up you can just put 2 wso in the jet?

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32 minutes ago, HossHarris said:

So they're interchangeable then?  if the pilot doesn't show up you can just put 2 wso in the jet?

You can try anything once!

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12 hours ago, Bergman said:

I don't know a single RC-135 EWO that has struggled to find a comparable salary job on the outside.  Even the guys that got RIFd a few years ago.

Many of these guys are just as highly trained as pilots.  The training pipeline is probably longer honestly.  They just don't have the airline pull.  But they do have striped polo shirts, leather weave belts, velcro shoes, and cell phone holsters.  So they've got that going for them. 

Their ability to speak fax machine is highly lucrative.

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On 8/5/2017 at 6:17 AM, nsplayr said:

 In that case I'll alert my bank to expect an incoming wire of $3,431,764.34 very soon :flag_waving: 

So you weigh approximately 186 pounds?

 

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1 hour ago, ThreeHoler said:

So you weigh approximately 186 pounds?

 

U-28 guys get kinda touchy about their weight.

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