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Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)


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3 hours ago, pilotguy said:

It’s simple for me...

As it stands I’m 100% getting out when my time is up

If I could make 250K (approx year 3 money at an airline) in the AF I’m 100% staying in.

No, the problems don’t go away, they just can be overlooked if my time is valued properly monetarily.

Id venture to guess that most people would feel the same way. 

 

 

Spot on.

Furthermore, the leaders who say “stay in because your country needs you” just don’t understand the dynamics. I’m 100% of my family’s father and husband population. They need me more. Until the situation is better (or at least similar) for the family when folks stay in the Air Force, most will choose to get out. That means the money has to be close.

It’s programmed into us genetically. Risk of death? Bad. Provide for kids so that they can continue to spread 50% of my genes? Good. Keeping the wife happy? See risk of death. 

It’s not selfish to pursue greener pastures. It’s selfish to stay in to satisfy ‘quality of service’ at the expense of a family.  There’s always volunteering for the Boys and Girls Club or Coast Guard auxiliary... on my brand new 30’ boat.

(Lots of caveats: some families value that quality of service as a unit, some people are psychopaths, some people don’t have families, some people didn’t bald and bloat at 35 and can get new families, etc.)

Edited by jice
Grammar
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6 hours ago, jice said:

It’s programmed into us genetically. Risk of death? Bad.

So here's the funny part.  While we all say we need more money to stay in and put up with the Air Force's queep, we'd also jump at the chance to volunteer for an ALR Extreme mission where we'd see a high likelihood of being killed.  Most of us have that strange self-actualization trait that makes flying into downtown Hanoi seem more desirable than living in a faceless bureaucracy.

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13 minutes ago, Majestik Møøse said:

So here's the funny part.  While we all say we need more money to stay in and put up with the Air Force's queep, we'd also jump at the chance to volunteer for an ALR Extreme mission where we'd see a high likelihood of being killed.  Most of us have that strange self-actualization trait that makes flying into downtown Hanoi seem more desirable than living in a faceless bureaucracy.

Flying an ALR extreme mission at least comes with a clear intent and a sense of satisfaction.

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21 minutes ago, Majestik Møøse said:

So here's the funny part.  While we all say we need more money to stay in and put up with the Air Force's queep, we'd also jump at the chance to volunteer for an ALR Extreme mission where we'd see a high likelihood of being killed.  Most of us have that strange self-actualization trait that makes flying into downtown Hanoi seem more desirable than living in a faceless bureaucracy.

Totally agree!

And here’s the REALLY funny part: in many circumstances that appears to be biologically programmed as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_equation

ALR extreme mission (with clear intent) = huge payoff for the ‘tribe’ = massive opportunity for propogation of similar genetic material (over the ‘tribe’ we might be sacrificing ourselves to destroy)

Sitting in a faceless bureaucracy = unhappy mate = no benefit at all to my genetic material’s propogation (through my own reproduction or opportunity for the tribe.) 

As it turns out, for beings built to fvck, it often comes down to fvcking!

(Again lots of caveats [and philosophical issues not to touch], but the issue is much more complicated than changing individual minds over and over again. In any case, more money wouldn’t hurt a bit...) 

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  • 1 month later...
On March 13, 2018 at 2:58 PM, akang2006 said:

Finally got my CMS case (18 Jan 2018) for AvIP adjudicated. Despite the DFAS pay table showing $1K/mo available for over 10 years aviation service, DFAS abides by the Oct 2017 AF memo showing $700/mo. USAF is leaving $300/mo on the table when it could pay the $1K. No reason, just cause. 

DFAS updated the 2018 pay tables to reflect that services may elect to pay less. That statement wasn’t in the initial release from DFAS in early 2018. 

Something else I just discovered that happened under the table late in 2016...

Even if you have completed all your gates, which previously would have entitled you to AvIP through 25 years of aviation service, you will no longer receive AvIP ("Flight Pay") if you are in an assignment outside of aviation for more than 48 consecutive months.

Exceptions are Joint Duty Assignment List assignments, resident PME or AF-funded education programs, or positions requiring an aeronatical rating.

The more you know...

 

Edited by Klepto
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Something else I just discovered that happened under the table late in 2016...
Even if you have completed all your gates, which previously would have entitled you to AvIP through 25 years of aviation service, you will no longer receive AvIP ("Flight Pay") if you are in an assignment outside of aviation for more than 48 consecutive months.
Exceptions are Joint Duty Assignment List assignments, resident PME or AF-funded education programs, or positions requiring an aeronatical rating.
The more you know...
Also it sounds like Professional Pay is off the table.
 


So why even bother with “gate months” anymore then? Makes zero sense.
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So anybody heard any updates? Someone on a FB group who works at A1 said the FY19 info would be out before the holiday and then the website open on Jan 7th to process applicants. I know it won’t be up beyond 35k but curious if they change some tiers or options. 

 

I understand a lot of people don’t want to take it, but some do. So any info would be helpful.

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3 hours ago, Champ Kind said:

 


^ Found the school select!

 

Yup, guilty as charged. Prior Enlisted also so it makes sense for my family. Once i signed a 10 year commitment for UPT i was in it for 20. I totally agree that the current bonus doesn’t move the needle on people’s decision. I’ve been fortunate to have great commanders, worked hard, and also had a degree of luck. Also i don’t understand why people say it’s not about the money. The correct statement is: it’s not only about the money. I love serving but your second commitment economics do play a part. Anyone who says different is lying to themselves. 

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6 hours ago, sling-it-17 said:

Yup, guilty as charged. Prior Enlisted also so it makes sense for my family. Once i signed a 10 year commitment for UPT i was in it for 20. I totally agree that the current bonus doesn’t move the needle on people’s decision. I’ve been fortunate to have great commanders, worked hard, and also had a degree of luck. Also i don’t understand why people say it’s not about the money. The correct statement is: it’s not only about the money. I love serving but your second commitment economics do play a part. Anyone who says different is lying to themselves. 

Perfect example why the bonus doesn’t work.....

Dudes that are staying in anyway boosting the take rate for the managers to hang their hat on. 

Should move this to “What’s Wrong” thread. 

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10 hours ago, IDALPHA said:

Perfect example why the bonus doesn’t work.....

Dudes that are staying in anyway boosting the take rate for the managers to hang their hat on. 

Should move this to “What’s Wrong” thread. 

Agreed. I wonder if there’s stats for late-raters who take the bonus. I’d like to see what percentage of total takers fall into that camp. That’s a completely different  equation when it comes to folks staying/taking the bonus. 

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It works both ways: the bonus doesn’t affect those who are extremely interested in the airlines and it doesn’t affect those who are extremely interested in the pension at 20 years. Not sure how this is whats wrong with the AF. Each service member decides what’s valuable to them. Their options going forward in the military are a factor in both sides as well. If i was barely getting by in the military that would be a data point used, just like if i was doing well and had options. So those who have options in the military shouldn’t take the bonus? That way they can stick it to the man? From my experience, usually if you have more options in one (mil), you also have more options in the other (airlines). So are u saying the only ones who should be able to take the ACP bonus should be those that are middle of the road guys? Basically saying: sorry you worked too hard and did too well in your first 12 years, so your not eligible bc it will skew the numbers. That sounds amazing.

As far as the take rates go: I’m sure they understand this known situation bc IDE guys have to sign an additional 4 year commitment usually before bonus eligible. But they also understand punishing guys who worked hard to get there wouldn’t pan out well in the long run. No doubt they know 20% or so would stay in no matter the bonus. They are just trying to find the magic number to get an acceptable take rate without getting too much or too little. I’ve heard they are looking for 65% retention, clearly that can’t be true bc they aernt even close and have done very little to adjust accordingly.

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1 hour ago, sling-it-17 said:

I’ve heard they are looking for 65% retention, clearly that can’t be true bc they aernt even close and have done very little to adjust accordingly.

You give them too much credit.  They don't know which way is up right now.  Actually crafting an effective plan to reach their target retention numbers isn't even close to achievable.

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As far as the take rates go: I’m sure they understand this known situation bc IDE guys have to sign an additional 4 year commitment usually before bonus eligible. But they also understand punishing guys who worked hard to get there wouldn’t pan out well in the long run. No doubt they know 20% or so would stay in no matter the bonus. They are just trying to find the magic number to get an acceptable take rate without getting too much or too little. I’ve heard they are looking for 65% retention, clearly that can’t be true bc they aernt even close and have done very little to adjust accordingly.


65% is the official target and has been for years.

They know and are unable to legally change the bonus. They have several studies showing where the bonus needs to be to retain 65%. It was $70K/yr a few years ago when the study was done. Congress (mainly the late Senator McCain) denied several requests for higher bonus payouts over the past few years saying they thought the AF could fix the retention issue other ways.

I hope you get a chance to learn more about how the AF works at IDE. Because right now it is obvious that you are ing clueless.
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13 hours ago, IDALPHA said:

Perfect example why the bonus doesn’t work.....

Dudes that are staying in anyway boosting the take rate for the managers to hang their hat on. 

Should move this to “What’s Wrong” thread. 

As it stands, you have a point. I think the bonus at $28-35k has a limited effect.  Fence-sitters will still get out. 

I guess I am somewhat of a fence-sitter, in that I see myself having a 1/20 chance of staying in.  I have two more years until decision time.  A couple major things will have to change for me to stay in.  One, is no chance of a 365.  The other is a significant bonus hike.  In the neighborhood of at least $60k.

I love wearing the bag, and it’s going to be hard leaving that.  Lots of intrinsic things that draw me to the military pilot thing.  But is that worth 8 years of airline seniority, especially when I can still wear the bag in a reserve unit?  Not worth the $35k, IMO.  

Some guys say that it’s not about the money.  That’s bull.  There’s a reason this thread is 169 pages long.  Money helps deal with  the sacrifices of military service easier on my family.  It helps with my spouse not being able to stick with a job longer than 3 years because of moves.  It helps my family fly home for holidays instead of driving.  Money does talk, even when the choice would involve other factors.  It’s not just the money, but money is a key factor.

Mccain is gone. Time for a real bonus.

Edited by flyusaf83
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1 minute ago, jazzdude said:

Or did they just split them into 2x 179s that can't be 3-day opted? That's not really solving the problem

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

So is the desire to not do 179s?  Or 365s?  I'm confused.

What do you want?  To never deploy again?  

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So is the desire to not do 179s?  Or 365s?  I'm confused.
What do you want?  To never deploy again?  
Meaningful deployments that actually matter.

The stupid PowerPoint builder deployments need to go, but they aren't the only ones. Even stupid flying deployments need to go. You can only move the same pallet of literal garbage, or the same vehicles back and forth, before you start to wonder why you're there away from home.

How about also admitting that a 365 is actually a remote (i.e. PCS), and not an ITDY?

Yeah, I may have volunteered for the military and the deployments associated with it. But if you take away the meaning from the work, and don't increase pay to compete with the civilian sector (that generally doesn't need that meaning or sense of patriotism), well, don't be surprised when people don't volunteer to stay any longer.

Maybe getting into wars with no realistic and achievable end goal is also strategically stupid to the overall health of the military, and a huge drain on national resources.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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40 minutes ago, IDALPHA said:

How about not deploying to be a PowerPoint/Excel secretary for a self serving “bonus taker” O-6+

You want all deployed aide-de-camp positions to go away? When was the last time you saw one of those filled with a non-vol. I get it. Rage against the machine. 

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4 hours ago, jazzdude said:

Maybe getting into wars with no realistic and achievable end goal is also strategically stupid to the overall health of the military, and a huge drain on national resources.

Sun Tzu said there is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.  

Best part about IDE/SDE is learning from the curriculum that we are in fact, doing this wrong.

 The great mystery to me is how we teach people the right thing yet so many graduate and immediately do the wrong thing.   All of the generals responsible for our failures have read that quote. Yet here we are. 

 

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