Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[di1630]

No, why would I sell my hound for $100K. Would you sell your kid for $100K?

Depends, can I go down to the local kid shelter and pick out a new cuter one? Does the kid shed? Incidentally today I was upset when a kid owner let his kid piss on my tire while he was walking his kid.




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[hatedont]

26 minutes ago, di1630 said:

Depends, can I go down to the local kid shelter and pick out a new cuter one? Does the kid shed? Incidentally today I was upset when a kid owner let his kid piss on my tire while he was walking his kid.




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Are you Javale Mcgee? Are you drunk?

Edited June 1, 2017 by hatedont

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, hatedont said:

Are you Javale Mcgee? Are you drunk?

And apparently you're also LastDragon.  Or he's your soulmate because only a complete moron would like this post^

How many accounts are you going to burn through before you take a hint?

[Toro]

1 hour ago, hatedont said:

Are you Javale Mcgee? Are you drunk?

Holy shit if that's not the pot calling the kettle black.

[gonefishin]

No, why would I sell my hound for $100K. Would you sell your kid for $100K?

I'd sell my wife for $100k

[BFM this]

8 minutes ago, gonefishin said:

I'd sell my wife for $100k

You're half right 

it would cost you at least $100K to sell your wife 

[sqwatch]

You're half right 
it would cost you at least $100K to sell your wife 

Ops tested


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[08Dawg]

Just heard through the Bomber functional at AFPC...the SECAF is announcing the details of the FY17 bonus tomorrow and the PSDM will be up at 0800 CDT Tuesday.  No details other than there is going to be some quote-unquote good news. 

[ViperStud]

1 hour ago, 08Dawg said:

Just heard through the Bomber functional at AFPC...the SECAF is announcing the details of the FY17 bonus tomorrow and the PSDM will be up at 0800 CDT Tuesday.  No details other than there is going to be some quote-unquote good news. 

Good news for us....or for Big Blue?

[Guest]

The good news will be you'll have a choice: 25k/yr in ACP or $500/month in stop loss. Choose wisely, if you turn down the bonus it'll come with your last year being "boots on the ramp" so you lose your recency.


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[icohftb]

2 hours ago, 08Dawg said:

Just heard through the Bomber functional at AFPC...the SECAF is announcing the details of the FY17 bonus tomorrow and the PSDM will be up at 0800 CDT Tuesday.  No details other than there is going to be some quote-unquote good news. 

People say that it will be the best bonus ever. I think when you see it youll be very impressed. It will be tremendous. Believe me...

[08Dawg]

1 hour ago, icohftb said:

People say that it will be the best bonus ever. I think when you see it youll be very impressed. It will be tremendous. Believe me...

And anyone not an 11x will still be pissed off...copy, continue indentured servitude for The Man...shoulda' worked harder in college!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ihtfp06 said:

The good news will be you'll have a choice: 25k/yr in ACP or $500/month in stop loss. Choose wisely, if you turn down the bonus it'll come with your last year being "boots on the ramp" so you lose your recency.


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For the older heads and those in the know, how did they accomplish the "boots on the ramp" policy back in the day? Was there a MFR that specified what the policy was or was it some informal agreement at the CC level (Sq, OG, Wg?) that we are going punish the non takers? 

 

And what difficulties do you see ahead, in terms of implementing that policy, if management attempted "boots on ramp 2.0" in the present day?

[HU&W]

Pledge your loyalty or you don't fly

[LookieRookie]

1 hour ago, BeerMan said:

What is a "boots on the ramp" policy?

If you don't take the bonus, the Air Force doesn't let you fly. It happened in the 90s. It was basically the threat that you wouldn't fly until your ADSC ends so good luck getting an airline job being non-current

[icohftb]

14 minutes ago, LookieRookie said:

If you don't take the bonus, the Air Force doesn't let you fly. It happened in the 90s. It was basically the threat that you wouldn't fly until your ADSC ends so good luck getting an airline job being non-current

That would only alienate pilots when the air force needs pilots to fly the line...

...so this will probably happen.

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, icohftb said:

That would only alienate pilots when the air force needs pilots to fly the line...

...so this will probably happen.

I cannot see how management can even think about implementing this with an end strength lower (if not similar) than 1990s numbers . Did the major conflicts of the 1990s (Iraq/Kuwait, Somalia, Haiti, Kosovo and Bosnia) have the same high Ops tempo like GWOT (insert whatever you want to call last 16 years)?

[BFM this]

4 hours ago, ihtfp06 said:

The good news will be you'll have a choice: 25k/yr in ACP or $500/month in stop loss. Choose wisely, if you turn down the bonus it'll come with your last year being "boots on the ramp" so you lose your recency.

Pretty sure this is trolling.  This is the only post, (not source), where I've seen this uttered.

[Herk Driver]

So there were pilots in a fighter squadron that didn't sign the bonus and pilots who did and the squadron, group, or wing commander wouldn't put the non-signers on the schedule? Or they were sent to a non-flying job? Is this urban legend or are there actually guys still around who experienced this?
Never say never, but speaking only from a CAF perspective I think a similar policy today would be impossible to impliment anytime in the next 10 years. You wouldn't be able to fill the daily flying schedule.

I was around when the boots in the ramp policy was around. This is not urban legend. If you didn't sign the bonus (thus tipping your hand that you were getting out) then you were not allowed to fly. You did not place your "boots on the ramp."

I, like the post above, think this is classic trolling. I could be wrong but hope I am not.


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[Hacker]

49 minutes ago, BeerMan said:

Is this urban legend or are there actually guys still around who experienced this?

Most definitely not urban legend, but there probably isn't anyone on AD who actually served with anyone who this happened to.

I personally know three guys who were labeled "BENT" (Bonus Eligible, Non-Taker) in the early 90s and were subjected to "boots on the ramp" restriction.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Hacker

[Danny Noonin]

Is this urban legend or are there actually guys still around who experienced this?

 

It absolutely happened.

 

 

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[xaarman]

I read an ACSC paper that was posted here that covered the BENT program. It was sold that there were limited resources/flying hours, and priority was given to those who made the commitment to serve beyond their initial ADSC, or something like that.

Reading the ACSC papers are fascinating. Each time, the AF has gotten through it by not changing anything, but riding it out until the next economic downtown. Notes are mine from random scrolling through.

 

1988: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a192791.pdf

"USAF pilot retention has once again decreased to an alarmingly low level. The combination of factors present in the current situation--large pay inequity, the perception of reduced benefits due to constrained budgets, and lucrative opportunities in the civilian economy--has the potential to make this pilot retention crisis the worst ever in for the Air Force"

1993: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a270298.pdf 

"An exit survey of pilots in 1979 showed job satisfaction, geographic stability, little say in future assignments, job opportunities, and senior Air Force leadership as the most often cited reasons for separation".  

"For example, on one occasion the Air Force issued leather flying jackets to currently rated pilots in an effort to increase morale. Some have proposed a "dual track" Sysyem for pilots which would allow th 'pilots who want to concentrate on flying to avoid some non-flying duties typically required of pilots desiring promotion and advancement in the Air Force. "

"In an effort to improve the retention of experienced senior pilots, there have been proposals to develop a two track system for pilots. This system, often referred to as the Dual Track system, would allow pilots to remain in a  career track similar to the one they are in currently, or alternatively enter a track where they would be a pilot  "specialist." Air Force Major David Evans explains that a  pilot in the specialist track ". . .would no longer be considered for promotion, PME, or other non-flying related programs and would retain his current rank for the remainder of his service". "

 

RAND Study in 2000: www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA533214

The United States Air Force is facing the largest peacetime pilot shortage in its history. This report examines the origin and nature of the shortage along with retention issues, and shows that the real problem is experience levels in operational units.

 

etc etc.

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

Oh wait, another one! 1999: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a397320.pdf

Deployments are a significant factor in high operations tempo for the military. Another factor related to the end of the Cold War and operations tempo is the downsizing that has occurred. Since 1989, the USAF has reduced its overall strength from almost 600,000 airmen to less than 400,000 in 1998, a 33 percent decrease in end strength.13 The smaller force combined with the higher operations tempo impacts the individual airman directly by increasing personnel tempo.

Today's economy also contributes to USAF retention problems. As a result of the healthy economy, the unemployment rate is only 4.3 percent, a 30-year low.14 The result is competition for employees. One particular labor market where competition for employees is especially fierce has been the market for pilots. This market has been competitive because there has been a hiring boom by the airlines in recent years, not only because of the healthy economy, but also because of the need to replace a large number of airline pilots reaching mandatory retirement age.

..

USAF senior leadership at the February 98 CORONA conference identified this high operations tempo as the primary reason USAF pilots separate from the service.

..

There are a variety of USAF initiatives intended to improve aspects of quality of life and thereby increase retention. These initiatives are intended to address two of the reasons highlighted in chapter two, personnel tempo and compensation. 

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by xaarman

[sqwatch]

I read an ACSC paper that was posted here that covered the BENT program. It was sold that there were limited resources/flying hours, and priority was given to those who made the commitment to serve beyond their initial ADSC, or something like that.
Reading the ACSC papers are fascinating. Each time, the AF has gotten through it by not changing anything, but riding it out until the next economic downtown. Notes are mine from random scrolling through.
 
1988: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a192791.pdf
"USAF pilot retention has once again decreased to an alarmingly low level. The combination of factors present in the current situation--large pay inequity, the perception of reduced benefits due to constrained budgets, and lucrative opportunities in the civilian economy--has the potential to make this pilot retention crisis the worst ever in for the Air Force"
1993: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a270298.pdf 
"An exit survey of pilots in 1979 showed job satisfaction, geographic stability, little say in future assignments, job opportunities, and senior Air Force leadership as the most often cited reasons for separation".  
"For example, on one occasion the Air Force issued leather flying jackets to currently rated pilots in an effort to increase morale. Some have proposed a "dual track" Sysyem for pilots which would allow th 'pilots who want to concentrate on flying to avoid some non-flying duties typically required of pilots desiring promotion and advancement in the Air Force. "
"In an effort to improve the retention of experienced senior pilots, there have been proposals to develop a two track system for pilots. This system, often referred to as the Dual Track system, would allow pilots to remain in a  career track similar to the one they are in currently, or alternatively enter a track where they would be a pilot  "specialist." Air Force Major David Evans explains that a  pilot in the specialist track ". . .would no longer be considered for promotion, PME, or other non-flying related programs and would retain his current rank for the remainder of his service". "
 
RAND Study in 2000: www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA533214
The United States Air Force is facing the largest peacetime pilot shortage in its history. This report examines the origin and nature of the shortage along with retention issues, and shows that the real problem is experience levels in operational units.
 
etc etc.
 
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
 
Oh wait, another one! 1999: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a397320.pdf
Deployments are a significant factor in high operations tempo for the military. Another factor related to the end of the Cold War and operations tempo is the downsizing that has occurred. Since 1989, the USAF has reduced its overall strength from almost 600,000 airmen to less than 400,000 in 1998, a 33 percent decrease in end strength.13 The smaller force combined with the higher operations tempo impacts the individual airman directly by increasing personnel tempo.
Today's economy also contributes to USAF retention problems. As a result of the healthy economy, the unemployment rate is only 4.3 percent, a 30-year low.14 The result is competition for employees. One particular labor market where competition for employees is especially fierce has been the market for pilots. This market has been competitive because there has been a hiring boom by the airlines in recent years, not only because of the healthy economy, but also because of the need to replace a large number of airline pilots reaching mandatory retirement age.
..
USAF senior leadership at the February 98 CORONA conference identified this high operations tempo as the primary reason USAF pilots separate from the service.
..
There are a variety of USAF initiatives intended to improve aspects of quality of life and thereby increase retention. These initiatives are intended to address two of the reasons highlighted in chapter two, personnel tempo and compensation. 
 

Then what fixed retention problems during those in-between years? Did things improve (leadership, pay, etc), or did pilots simply not have other opportunities outside of the air force? If it is the later, this would give credence to the argument that we've heard from the general level that retention is economy based.





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[xaarman]

From what I can tell, nothing really fixed retention (BENT give a bit of a bump IIRC [and leather jackets /s])... the USAF waited long enough for the economy to take a shit and/or airlines stopping hiring. Unfortunately, my google-fu skills tell me people didn't write ACSC papers on high retention years. The FY16 Rated Retention Report has all the numbers and there is a direct correlation between airline hiring waves and retention.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by xaarman

[sqwatch]

From what I can tell, nothing really fixed retention (leather jackets, and BENT give a bit of a bump IIRC)... the USAF waited long enough for the economy to take a shit and/or airlines stopping hiring. Unfortunately, my google-fu skills tell me people didn't write ACSC papers on high retention years. The FY16 Rated Retention Report has all the numbers and there is a direct correlation between airline hiring waves and retention.
 
 

I agree. As much as I hate green dot training, UAVs and staff tours, the realities of the military (deployments, staff jobs, etc) won't go away. Nor will the AF ever compete (rightfully so, IMO) with the civilian market for jobs.

Much like a horse-pill of penicillin needs to be swallowed after a date with bqzip's mom, so does the realities of the military. I'm all for more efficient management, but when the airlines pay like they do for the amount of work they expect, the trend will continue.

But what do I care, I'm in the guard.


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