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Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)


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10 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

 

Edit: Also bonuses for 12F/12B 5 yr @ $15k, 12H 5 yr @ 20k, 12R/12S 5 yr @ $10k. No love for 12M

 

Who knows if this is actually approved 

Probably because 12M no longer really exists outside the Guard/Reserve

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10 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

Back to the bonus, from what I saw from DRAFT is 11F/11U gets $35K. 11B/11M/11S get $34. 11H/11R get $28K.

There also was the addition of 1, 2, and 13 year contracts and possible renegotiation if Congress ups the amount.

 

Edit: Also bonuses for 12F/12B 5 yr @ $15k, 12H 5 yr @ 20k, 12R/12S 5 yr @ $10k. No love for 12M

 

Who knows if this is actually approved 

Someone please explain why 12H manning is so incredibly horrid.  They couldn't retain folks with a $15k bonus for the past few years?  As a 12S, I've yet to meet one CGO who can't wait to GTFO.  Palace Chase applications and seeking ways out are the standard.  

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These guys are so ignorant to human psychology the way this is structured. 

A few thousand dollars here or there really makes no difference at all in a guy's decision to stay. They make these numbers seem so calibrated and logical like there's some magic formula on exactly how much you need to pay to tip the balance. News flash, AFPC and Congress ain't that smart.

What ends up being incredibly insulting however is being paid less than your buddy just because he has a different letter after his number, when you both can see that each of your career fields is undermanned. 

Even when the retention need differs across specialties (11F vs 11M), a level bonus is always going to feel more equitable and produce better results. The joy of the fighter guy getting a few thousand more will not outweigh the anger of the heavy guy getting a few thousand less,and the AF will end up with fewer pilots than if they just paid everyone the same bonus. 

+1 for $60K across the board for pilots, $25K for CSOs and call it a day.

Have fun being the monkey on the left!

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2 hours ago, nsplayr said:

These guys are so ignorant to human psychology the way this is structured. 

A few thousand dollars here or there really makes no difference at all in a guy's decision to stay. They make these numbers seem so calibrated and logical like there's some magic formula on exactly how much you need to pay to tip the balance. News flash, AFPC and Congress ain't that smart.

What ends up being incredibly insulting however is being paid less than your buddy just because he has a different letter after his number, when you both can see that each of your career fields is undermanned. 

Even when the retention need differs across specialties (11F vs 11M), a level bonus is always going to feel more equitable and produce better results. The joy of the fighter guy getting a few thousand more will not outweigh the anger of the heavy guy getting a few thousand less,and the AF will end up with fewer pilots than if they just paid everyone the same bonus. 

+1 for $60K across the board for pilots, $25K for CSOs and call it a day.

 

Mostly agree with you, but not on your point that paying everyone the same is a solution (hello socialism). If someone has a skill set that is in higher demand it can command a higher price, and it should.

Now, the $1K difference between AFSCs is amusing AF logic, as if it was the product of some Rube Goldberg device, and I agree with you that if they're going to pay people equivalently the same amount/bonus, they should just make it the same across the board - $1K difference between 11Xs ain't going to make a difference in retention for those seeking money - it will make a difference for those who want to feel like they are valued by the organization - which a bonus structured like this goes a long way to undermining.

That said, if there is a (much) greater need for certain AFSCs, they should reflect that in the bonus they offer. Ultimately though, I'm not one for bonuses and would prefer to see the AF tackle this problem in a completely different way that represents the value provided to the DOD that each AFSC brings. I would rather have them divorce the pay scale from O-whatever and align it with AFSC. At this point in my career, I struggle more with the logic of paying O-1/2/3/4/5/6s the same when different AFSCs bring inherently different value to the warfighting table. Same is true for Es.

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Well that's essentially what flight pay is for so we can argue that our current flight pay is antiquated and should be a lot more. I think we can say an O-3 Aircraft Commander of a MAF aircraft responsible for global mobility of his or her crew or anyone responsible for any other semi-cylindrical object that passes through the air at high speeds should get a bit more dough than an O-3 in the fitness center in charge of making sure the basketballs are inflated to the correct pressure. I mean shit, the "over 4" flight pay is $206 per month. $2,472 per year to command an aircraft for the military? Ok, sure. It goes to $650 over 6, but by then most of us are seasoned IP's or even evaluators. Over 14? Probably not flying much anymore. As a comparison, your lowest 4-year obligated health professional bonus (General Dentistry) is $150,000 or $37,500 per year. Neurosurgeons get $400,000. No, I'm not trying to compare pilots to neurosurgeons, but let's remember that the Air Force is paying these people big bucks because of supply/demand and the fact that their skill commands 3 or 4 times their military salary in the civilian world.

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2 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

The reason for the $35K/$34K split is Congress. The NDAA markup mandated "targeted" $35K bonuses. This way the AF can follow the law and still max the bonus as much as possible.

Dumb? Yes.

But the law is the law.

I wonder if they could have done $34,999.99? That would have made me laugh out loud, and I would have actually enjoyed being the staff-O that got to type up the MFR or whatever. "It is 'tiered', congressman..."

1 hour ago, BeerMan said:

This!!! ^^^^^

I feel like we revisit this issue one a month on this forum. The NDAA is the law. Congress, specifically the SASC, said no to a $60-48k bonus.

They also said the Air Force WILL use targeted bonuses. Current AF leadership is not trying to insult our intelligence, they're following the law. 

Put another way, Congress said the monkeys should be happy with $35k in bananas. The Air Force fought back, but lost. Congress wins. Those are the rules of the game.

Write, call, or visit your Senator and your Rep and tell them what you think.

I understand this better now, and FULLY grasp that everyone in the AF answers to someone, including the COS. HOWEVER, the fault of the AF isn't that they currently have their hands tied by Congress/must do what they say. No one is blaming them for that, but there is NO DOUBT the AF could have and should have seen this coming and postured themselves earlier during "cold ops" to deal with the inevitable. Congress will likely almost always say "no" to one of their "children" at first request. The AF (at least parts of it) interfaces with Congress on a daily or weekly basis. Those individuals who do, know this, grasp how the sausage is made, and understand that they're not going to get something the first time they ask. The point? They were negligent in not initiating this effort years ago - that's the problem and complaint. Bitching about $35K vs $34K is just good fun.

34 minutes ago, BeerMan said:

If leaving and taking another opportunity is best for anyone and their family, by all means, jump on it and don't look back! But...

In reference to the ACP (amount, AFSC, timeline, etc) be educated about what is actually going on. Sport bitching is fun (I love it), but complaining about the Air Force limiting the bonus amount, and making it tiered is shooting the messenger. Congress literally writes down what the Air Force and other services are allowed to do. They use words, put it on paper, and the internet for everyone to see.

I don't expect any Captain, or line flyer to read the NDAA. Their job is to kick ass and take names in whatever MDS they operate, but at least be aware and listen to the rest of us when we emerge from our desk caves and shed some light on these things.

We have enough shit to fix without spreading bullshit false narratives amongst ourselves.

Cheers,

Beerman

I don't like blaming the messenger either, but I do think the AF has played a greater role in this "crisis" than just a message passer between the country's legislators and the line fliers. The 5-year hiatus on airline retirements built up a 5-year backlog of hiring that was certain to affect retention. Now, we're reacting, when we had all the opportunity in the world to be proactive. Seems like a missed opportunity, and one which, if properly addressed, would have been a staff effort actually worthy of receiving OPR bullets.

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2 hours ago, BeerMan said:

This!!! ^^^^^

I feel like we revisit this issue one a month on this forum. The NDAA is the law. Congress, specifically the SASC, said no to a $60-48k bonus.

They also said the Air Force WILL use targeted bonuses. Current AF leadership is not trying to insult our intelligence, they're following the law. 

Put another way, Congress said the monkeys should be happy with $35k in bananas. The Air Force fought back, but lost. Congress wins. Those are the rules of the game.

Write, call, or visit your Senator and your Rep and tell them what you think.

The law is the law, but 28K as an 11H sucks when others are getting 34/35K.  I get it.  We have the highest take rate out of the pilots in the Air Force.  But all this does is just reinforce that we always have been, and will always be the Air Force's red headed step children. 

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1 hour ago, JQuintana said:

The law is the law, but 28K as an 11H sucks when others are getting 34/35K.  I get it.  We have the highest take rate out of the pilots in the Air Force.  But all this does is just reinforce that we always have been, and will always be the Air Force's red headed step children. 

Same goes for 11Rs. Most folks I know are already planning on getting out. The fact that we are getting a pathetic $3k ACP increase while others are getting a slightly less pathetic $9-10k sure isn't going to help. 

I don't really care if Congress is to blame or the AF.

Most likely, both. 

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11 hours ago, snoopyeast said:

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Here is the approval rating of Congress.   Quite apparent they give fu*k all.

Oh no, they care, Gallup just asked the wrong people. Ask multi-national Corps only, how they rate Congress. That chart could be pivoted upwards around the 50 percentile line and traced. Done, approval rating in the 90s. BL, It's big fucking club...and YOU A'INT in it.

The other poster is right. The only metric of leverage you have in this world is your feet. The rest is just spinning your wheels. As the movie the Gambler posited, the key is to reach the position of fuck you.  Get there, and wanking about some chump change 20K post tax won't seem like that important a topic in the big scheme of things. Lord knows that shit wouldn't get me out of bed, let alone stay in a position where I couldn't say fuck you on command. That's the biggest thing I value as a career AFRC guy, over anything Big blue has dished at me since 2005. See my avatar. This mother can shut down and imma be alright, baby's paid for.

 

Edited by hindsight2020
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Someone please explain why 12H manning is so incredibly horrid.  They couldn't retain folks with a $15k bonus for the past few years?  As a 12S, I've yet to meet one CGO who can't wait to GTFO.  Palace Chase applications and seeking ways out are the standard.  


As a 12H, and one who actually likes his job, here is my take on it. And it is multifaceted.

HC-130's have some of the worst promotion rates in the USAF (2 years ago we had something like 2/7 make major) which makes many feel unappreciated. There are a few reasons behind this.

First we do a lot of alert and waiting for stuff to happen, which rarely does. This means that we don't rack up the impressive numbers that the 12S's and other 12's do. This is especially hard when seeing the stuff a lot of the 12S's with similar aircraft and skill sets get to do and how well 11S/12S tend to do for promotions.

Second, our community tends to be bad a writing and taking care of people's careers (stingy with strats, medals, etc... for example) though that part appears to be starting to improve.

Aside from promotions, there is sometimes a perceived "second class citizen" status of the HC-130 guys within in the rescue community. IMHO this appears to be improving as well.

Because of all of the above, many in the community feel that rescue is a dead end job so they want to get out so they can advance elsewhere.

As for me, I was a civilian firefighter in High School and College who joined the air force because it seemed like a nearly as fun way to serve (compared to career firefighter) with much better pay. I found out about the HC-130 at UCT and the mission spoke to the firefighter in me and still does. But I love rescue in spite of its flaws, not in denial of them.

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On 3/18/2017 at 11:07 PM, bronxbomber252 said:

Second, our community tends to be bad a writing and taking care of people's careers (stingy with strats, medals, etc... for example) though that part appears to be starting to improve.

 

 

Sounds like the Buff

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On 5/19/2016 at 8:29 PM, Day Man said:

 

 

I think it's DFresh, increasing traffic and lining his own pockets. :beer:

Hey DFresh, lets talk about B course graduation critiques!  If not I will, something about scheduling being like your throttle technique on TR-1...

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On 3/16/2017 at 9:31 PM, JQuintana said:

The law is the law, but 28K as an 11H sucks when others are getting 34/35K.  I get it.  We have the highest take rate out of the pilots in the Air Force.  But all this does is just reinforce that we always have been, and will always be the Air Force's red headed step children. 

Now I made my choice years ago, but you could be a Marine fighter pilot with no bonus who was just told that $5k a year will probably be approved in the future.

$28k doesn't sound all that bad. I could put a new street and track bike in the garage with that!

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Now I made my choice years ago, but you could be a Marine fighter pilot with no bonus who was just told that $5k a year will probably be approved in the future.
$28k doesn't sound all that bad. I could put a new street and track bike in the garage with that!

I don't hear much about the USMC having aviation retention problems. Is it just not as bad or not being reported? Same for the Navy.


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45 minutes ago, Duck said:


I don't hear much about the USMC having aviation retention problems. Is it just not as bad or not being reported? Same for the Navy.


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It might be because aviation is such a small part of the Marine Corps, but I'm fairly certain it's just as bad, if not worse. At least for the fighter community - I can't really speak to the others. USMC F/A-18 squadrons are at, or just slightly below 50% required manning at the Captain level, and the vast majority, i.e., 80% of the Capts I know, are planning on leaving after their commitment is complete.

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I don't hear much about the USMC having aviation retention problems. Is it just not as bad or not being reported? Same for the Navy.


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I was down range with some Marine fighter guys and I started complaining about the USAF pilot issues. Once they told me about Marine flying I felt bad for complaining in the first place. Not sure how/why they put up with it.


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