Sprkt69 Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 11 hours ago, Tone deaf said: It appears that RAF pilots are experiencing the same issues as we are regarding pay, bonuses, retention, and value. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/when-pilots-quit-why-we-must-stop-telling-people-valued-tim-davies That should be mandatory reading for upper management, not that they would listen much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17D_guy Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 " My desire to stay in the cockpit meant that further promotion passed me by like a ship in the night but I am not bitter. As I approach 18 years of service I have only worn the shackles of a desk job once - in the job I am currently in and even now I still hold a cockpit for a couple of weeks of the month" What a novel idea... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 "I didn’t want to see my team of instructors leave for the Middle-East but it happened because we didn’t incentivise them to stay. Each one of these pilots cost over £4 million to train and when they left they gifted this training to a contractor to employ them overseas. It doesn’t seem a very good deal for the taxpayer or the Service." We run such a huge, increasing debt that it's not surprising "we" don't get it...but, it really is just that simple. Sad story... "Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to.’ - Richard Branson, Virgin" I have always thought that statement was brilliant. Hope you all are having a nice weekend. (Go Mark Hunt!) Bendy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osulax05 Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 This was posted over in the next CSAF thread by deaddebate but thought it Pertinent to this thread as well. Fingers' testimony: Do you agree, if confirmed, to reevaluate the Air Force’s practice of offering the aviation retention bonus equally to all platforms, as a way to better shape and manage the Air Force’s pilot force across disciplines? We will tailor any potential bonus based upon specific platform and overall Air Force requirements. The requested increase is not a set amount. If approved, this will give us the flexibility to tailor bonus amounts and contract terms by platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guineapigfury Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) If the bonus goes up, here's my prediction: Year 1: Max Money for Fighter Pilots and maybe Drone Pilots. Year 2: Max Money for Fighter Pilots, Drone Pilots and maybe everyone else. Year 3: Max Money for all Pilots when Fingers realizes "Oh shit, I'm out of pilots" and "I'm retiring in 6 months, I don't give a fuck" Edited July 10, 2016 by guineapigfury 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wing Sweep Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 3 hours ago, osulax05 said: We will tailor any potential bonus based upon specific platform and overall Air Force requirements. The requested increase is not a set amount. If approved, this will give us the flexibility to tailor bonus amounts and contract terms by platform. Standard answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neontico Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Looks like the $60k found its way back into the text. Now off to potus for sig: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/114/s2943/text/eah 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 $60k for each 12 month service of obligated service is surely the nuclear option. It's unfathomable they will offer $60k annual bonuses to pilots without extreme strings attached after they've exhausted all other options and are literally considering that "stop-loss" that GC refers to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 $60k for each 12 month service of obligated service is surely the nuclear option. It's unfathomable they will offer $60k annual bonuses to pilots without extreme strings attached after they've exhausted all other options and are literally considering that "stop-loss" that GC refers to. Unfathomable to you, maybe. Some of us have heard it directly from A3 that they know $60K/yr is the current magic number for the up to 20YAS option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazmo Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Delaying your departure to the airlines for $60k per year now could cost you $100k+ per year (and a better lifestyle) in the last 5-10 years of your airline career. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 That $60K/year ($45K/yr after the 25% tax hit) could be worth between $1.9M and $8.5M (6% and 12% annual return) at age 65. This is, of course, very quick and dirty napkin math...but TVM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnapLock Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 21 minutes ago, Gazmo said: Delaying your departure to the airlines for $60k per year now could cost you $100k+ per year (and a better lifestyle) in the last 5-10 years of your airline career. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk I am by no means a blue kool aid drinker but there are two sides to this coin. I am planning on getting out soon and going to the airlines. However, I heard recently that roughly 1/3 of all males won't make it to 65, and only around 25% of all airline pilots will make it to 65 without losing their medical for a period of time. Let that sink in. Also, we know that the airline industry is volatile. Hopefully, those of us who are getting hired now will be bullet proof from furloughs etc, but you never know. Also, look at how airline management teams are fighting tooth and nail to avoid better contracts for pilots. Doesn't seem like a healthy relationship to me. Health insurance costs are also significantly higher on the outside. If you have something go down you could take a pretty big hit. Just some food for thought. Everyone talks about the money you could lose at the end of your career if you don't go to the airlines now. Well, how do you know you'll live that long? Will you be able to hold your medical into those years? To me this isn't a money decision. It is a quality of life decision. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 That's not really how you should calculate it - the difference between airline pay and the 60k bonus is what's important. If, for instance, the difference was 60k you'd actually be *losing* between $1.9M and $8.5M using those same assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazmo Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 I am by no means a blue kool aid drinker but there are two sides to this coin. I am planning on getting out soon and going to the airlines. However, I heard recently that roughly 1/3 of all males won't make it to 65, and only around 25% of all airline pilots will make it to 65 without losing their medical for a period of time. Let that sink in. Also, we know that the airline industry is volatile. Hopefully, those of us who are getting hired now will be bullet proof from furloughs etc, but you never know. Also, look at how airline management teams are fighting tooth and nail to avoid better contracts for pilots. Doesn't seem like a healthy relationship to me. Health insurance costs are also significantly higher on the outside. If you have something go down you could take a pretty big hit. Just some food for thought. Everyone talks about the money you could lose at the end of your career if you don't go to the airlines now. Well, how do you know you'll live that long? Will you be able to hold your medical into those years? To me this isn't a money decision. It is a quality of life decision. You can go around and around beating yourself up over all the "what if's", but money aside, the question I ask myself is, can I take 10 more years of this? Nope... and I'm a full time guardsman (ART) with the AGR option. I don't even have to deal with the AD'isms lot's of others put up with. I'll ride the rest of my time out min running the traditional guardsman lifestyle. ANG/AFRC is a good way to hang on to benefits. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprkt69 Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 12 hours ago, Gazmo said: You can go around and around beating yourself up over all the "what if's", but money aside, the question I ask myself is, can I take 10 more years of this? Nope... and I'm a full time guardsman (ART) with the AGR option. I don't even have to deal with the AD'isms lot's of others put up with. I'll ride the rest of my time out min running the traditional guardsman lifestyle. ANG/AFRC is a good way to hang on to benefits. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk How do you keep a bunch of aircrew? Send them to the Guard/Reserves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazmo Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 How do you keep a bunch of aircrew? Send them to the Guard/Reserves In general, yes, but start treating the Guard and Reserves like AD and you can watch us walk also. Remember, from a traditional Guardsman/Reservist standpoint, they don't offer us bonuses to stay past 10 and we've historically had people who were willing to go right to 28 years as a Lt Col before hitting the R-button, but as of late, a lot are just getting to 20 and punching. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveScotch Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 I know it's in the proposed NDAA, but I can't see them offering $60k/year, at least not right off the bat. Probably some sort of gradual increase, spread out over a decade or so. A sudden increase in bonus would be massively detrimental to good order and discipline. What's the incentive to perform if someone who's trained the same as you is getting paid up to $35k more per year for the same signed commitment, just because he was in the magic year group? 365's only go so far as a cattle prod. I can see the Air Force Times headline now: "Shortage in the cockpit: Pilots to get $540k extra to stay". Terrible optic for the force as a whole. Gradual increases would be easier to stomach. On the other side of the coin, guys are going to be looking at that $60k authorization and holding off on signing up on the hopes it hits $60k in a year or so. Poor option to optimally manage the force. You may keep the numbers you need for staff, but overall quality will definitely decline. I think monthly flight pay is the better route to success, with dramatic increases after 10 YAS, but they only upped it $150/month on the top end. Too little to matter, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 4 hours ago, ILoveScotch said: I know it's in the proposed NDAA, but I can't see them offering $60k/year, at least not right off the bat. Probably some sort of gradual increase, spread out over a decade or so. A sudden increase in bonus would be massively detrimental to good order and discipline. What's the incentive to perform if someone who's trained the same as you is getting paid up to $35k more per year for the same signed commitment, just because he was in the magic year group? 365's only go so far as a cattle prod. I can see the Air Force Times headline now: "Shortage in the cockpit: Pilots to get $540k extra to stay". Terrible optic for the force as a whole. Gradual increases would be easier to stomach. On the other side of the coin, guys are going to be looking at that $60k authorization and holding off on signing up on the hopes it hits $60k in a year or so. Poor option to optimally manage the force. You may keep the numbers you need for staff, but overall quality will definitely decline. I think monthly flight pay is the better route to success, with dramatic increases after 10 YAS, but they only upped it $150/month on the top end. Too little to matter, really. What's the current incentive to perform if someone trained the same as you is getting $25K more a year for the same signed commitment? There are plenty of folks not eligible for the current bonuses because they were late-to-rate, or prior enlisted, or missed gate months when they were on an ALO or staff tour. I'm not sure I see why the $60K would be that much different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 They doubled (roughly) the bonus after people took a 5 year $25K bonus...where is their incentive to perform when someone is getting 2x as much of the devil's money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveScotch Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 17 minutes ago, pawnman said: What's the current incentive to perform if someone trained the same as you is getting $25K more a year for the same signed commitment? There are plenty of folks not eligible for the current bonuses because they were late-to-rate, or prior enlisted, or missed gate months when they were on an ALO or staff tour. I'm not sure I see why the $60K would be that much different. Late to rate: Not the same aviation commitment or experience level. Prior enlisted: Same as above. Missed gate months: Thats a lot of missed gate months. I see your point. But now instead of $25k/yr difference in pay, it's a $60k/yr difference. I can see there being trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveScotch Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said: They doubled (roughly) the bonus after people took a 5 year $25K bonus...where is their incentive to perform when someone is getting 2x as much of the devil's money? You could upgrade to the 9 year after the fact. Not sure if you still can but I know someone who did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFM this Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Late to rate: Not the same aviation commitment or experience level. Prior enlisted: Same as above. Missed gate months: Thats a lot of missed gate months. I see your point. But now instead of $25k/yr difference in pay, it's a $60k/yr difference. I can see there being trouble. Prior: tell me how I didn't have the same commitment? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurelySerious Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 1 hour ago, BFM this said: Prior: tell me how I didn't have the same commitment? He's a troll, so he probably can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 You could upgrade to the 9 year after the fact. Not sure if you still can but I know someone who did. Only one year group could upgrade. Everyone else with a 5 year was not given the option. The world didn't come to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guineapigfury Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Enlisted folks have seen disparities in reenlistment bonuses based on timing, work continued. Everyone understands that getting a bonus is largely a product of luck and timing. Late Rates and priors generally don't see them on the pilot side because big blue figures (usually correctly) that someone whose UPT ADSC takes them past 15 years or so is probably going to stick around for the next 5 years without a bonus. If I was in charge of pilot manning, I'd offer folks the bonus to stick around even if it took them well past 20. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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