BitteEinBit Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 In reality, the bonus wasn't raised. The contracts were extended. Great insight from the Pentagon....thanks for being honest and forthcoming with this! Please also be honest with the guys actually taking the 9-year 'retention' pay. The fact that the 'contract' was extended really just means a longer ADSC for the member who cannot voluntarily separate, but the Air Force can still involuntarily separate members (not including Artical 15s and nornal administrative discharges) as manpower requirements change. Chances are with the projected shortage, most if not all of them will see the full contract, but you've already eluded to smaller staffs, more cuts, and the fact that the AF has an unplanned glut of FGOs, albeit in the 11M world. Smaller staffs and future personnel cuts really means creative 'force manangement' tools which may or may not include an 11F manning shortage that corrects itself over the next 9 years. A lot can happen between now and then. Hopefully the verbiage in those 'contracts' makes that clear. Some of these guys may be literally banking on that pay over the next 9 years. I know a few passed over Majors a few years back who were also let go while on 'contract' (the bonus) and they too were banking on that pay. We all know it is budget driven, but as long as bubbas know this going in, all is fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11F Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 I disagree, but I may be proved wrong. For the record: by "majority", I just mean 50%, which shouldn't be tough. I too could be wrong. We'll see when the stats are released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Pipes Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 LR- Liquid is higher up than I am. I do understand all of the skepticism, and the best I can offer is that A1 will learn from past mistakes. Will personnelists make different mistakes in the future? I have no doubt. But the VSP debacle that occurred a few years back should not happen again. And have no doubt, that was a gross disservice to a lot of good people. Curious as to what has led to the sudden trolling on here by General Chang and Liquid... especially on the PRF/Promotion and Bonus threads? Interesting to hear the perspective, but you guys are obviously not crew dawgs sitting in crew rest at the Deid... especially if Liquid is higher up than you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Chang Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Bitte, Correct, AF is always in the catbird's seat, but honestly that's what I would expect signing the papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnimalMother Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Rusty, Second post first- yes, the last twelve years have sucked from a family perspective- do not think your senior leaders don't recognize that. They simply have no tools to show that appreciation other than language. Vehemently disagree. What about easing BS requirements such as SOS in res, OREs, ORIs, masters degrees, uniform madness, etc, the list goes on and on. There are a million things that our leaders could do, from the O-4 level on up, that would demonstrate that appreciation, and they could start by canning the look of incredulity when we ask for more than a week or two of leave. On another note, what is the impetus behind the recent addition of brass to BODN? Honestly I appreciate the insight that you and Liquid have provided, so thanks for that for sure, but I'm curious as to why here and why now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravedigger Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) My guess is this is a good "pulse" for those in the building to check. Honest feedback that could never really be attained by talking to people face to face during a dog and pony show visit. All it takes is a browser, and you've got an instantaneous reaction to nearly all AF decisions. It's also a great way to get a senior perspective out to the masses. How many bases/squadrons are represented here? A ton. Liquid and Gen C post inside gouge, and the rest of us take it around our squadrons. One personal recommendation for a business is worth millions of dollars in advertising. Whatever the reason, I think the relationship could continue to be symbiotic. Edit: Fat fingers, small iPhone. Edited June 27, 2013 by Gravedigger 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Chang Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Rusty, Lots of officers are trolling this site that you wouldn't expect to be. The site itself has been around and thriving for what, 14 years? Back when I was flying the line, I loved the tools that baseops.net provided. It only stands to reason that officers who found utility in the site during the early 2000's would have naturally migrated over to the forums in recent years to see what crew dogs are complaining about. Generally good entertainment. Like the majority of folks, I logged in for quite a while as a guest, content to read the threads for insight and fun. However, seeing your frustrated post a couple of days ago on this thread caused me to come out of the shadows and give my thoughts, much like what happened with Liquid in the Promotions forum. The Air Force is an amazing organization with absolutely top-tier talent, as Animal alluded to, but it is a government organization, not a club, and it will move forward like a machine. Sometimes you benefit, sometimes you get screwed; in the end, if it's not about the service and you get screwed, you will naturally get emotional and negative, and you'll end up leaving the Air Force frustrated, pissed off, and killing the attitudes of many subordinates along the way who look up to you for guidance and mentorship. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TnkrToad Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 What I can say is that 365s are going down, and yes, numbers will be looked at over the next couple of months and factored into the FY14 Bonus. I would be very surprised if things changed significantly, however, especially for -11Fs, since this unveiling happened so late and the Air Force's "rewards" will be reaped with take rates starting next year if they keep the 20 year plan in place for fighter guys, which they should. While I get why Big Blue is worried about 11Fs, I still can't past the perception that this program is still all about fighter generals taking care of their own . . . . while my data points are a little dated (approx 1.5 yrs old), the 11S community was only 70% manned last year & 11Hs were at 76%, whereas the 11F community was at a much healthier 87%. Funny that there was no special treatment for these two communities that have "taken it in the shorts" worse than the 11F community has. Is Big Blue assuming that the patriots from these communities will happily stay in the fight without special consideration, while the 11F community gets gets better perks and better manning? Taken together with the fact that the "fat" in the heavy community is almost exclusively in year groups that have yet to reach bonus eligibility, and this looks like a recipe for trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Chang Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Vehemently disagree. What about easing BS requirements such as SOS in res, OREs, ORIs, masters degrees, uniform madness, etc, the list goes on and on. There are a million things that our leaders could do, from the O-4 level on up, that would demonstrate that appreciation, and they could start by canning the look of incredulity when we ask for more than a week or two of leave. On another note, what is the impetus behind the recent addition of brass to BODN? Honestly I appreciate the insight that you and Liquid have provided, so thanks for that for sure, but I'm curious as to why here and why now. Great first point- give Gen Welsh a little more time. Second point- not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11F Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 28 graduates in my class: 2 foreign, 2 ANG, 3 AFRES, 21 AD. Of the 21 AD folks, 4 have punched thus far that I know of... 90 days left on ADSC, 17 of 21 still in. I'm not shitting on your argument, I'm just saying there is likely a bell-curve in a file in some desk at AFPC that supports your end and my end and everything in between. FWIW, I just signed up. Chuck You and I must have been in the same UPT class. It freaks me out that somebody would keep track of numbers like this. I hope I'm not on your bad list. (j/k) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Delta is not hiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slackline Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 While I get why Big Blue is worried about 11Fs, I still can't past the perception that this program is still all about fighter generals taking care of their own . . . . while my data points are a little dated (approx 1.5 yrs old), the 11S community was only 70% manned last year & 11Hs were at 76%, whereas the 11F community was at a much healthier 87%. Funny that there was no special treatment for these two communities that have "taken it in the shorts" worse than the 11F community has. Is Big Blue assuming that the patriots from these communities will happily stay in the fight without special consideration, while the 11F community gets gets better perks and better manning? Taken together with the fact that the "fat" in the heavy community is almost exclusively in year groups that have yet to reach bonus eligibility, and this looks like a recipe for trouble. I'm glad somebody else posted this. I am curious if our communities are just too small to be noticed or what. I mean, I know there will never be an 11H running the show or making it very far up the chain, but our guys have been taking it on the chin for about 10 years straight. Really, I'm just looking for insight into what is seen out there for 11H/S because we get lost behind the massive 11F/M communities. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Pipes Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) The Air Force is an amazing organization with absolutely top-tier talent, as Animal alluded to, but it is a government organization, not a club, and it will move forward like a machine. Sometimes you benefit, sometimes you get screwed; in the end, if it's not about the service and you get screwed, you will naturally get emotional and negative, and you'll end up leaving the Air Force frustrated, pissed off, and killing the attitudes of many subordinates along the way who look up to you for guidance and mentorship. Yup... and there are lots of parts to that machine. Seems to me that we spend lots of time waxing/polishing the hood to make sure we look good (AADs, PME in COR, inflated OPRs), but completely ignore what is under the hood (Being good at your primary job, family life, actual leadership). Very few young pilots are looking towards the 2 BPZ Intern Sq CC for mentorship... they are looking at that crusty Maj or Lt Col crew dawg. They are also taking a very close look at how those crusty old guys are treated by "the machine". Big Blue hasn't treated them very well over the past few years and the VSP/RIF fiasco for the mid level guys only made things worse. You want to tell the "leadership" in DC how they can help things get better with retention for pilots? Stop making pilots feel like they have to apologize for wanting to actually be a pilot and for wanting to be good at it. Stop making every pilot feel they have to lie to their boss by pretending they want to be the CSAF or their career will be over as a Capt. Stop associating crew position with promotion (gotta send him to IP school because his PRF is coming up). Just to name a few... Delta is not hiring. How about this... US Air?!? Better??? Once again... completely missing the point! Edited June 27, 2013 by Rusty Pipes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Stop associating crew position with promotion (gotta send him to IP school because his PRF is coming up). Just to name a few... YGBSM. Thankfully, this doesn't happen in the CAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnimalMother Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 "We need to upgrade jimmy ham hands or ricky the retard because it will be good for his career." Direct quote from squadron leadership, no shit. I withheld actual names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Pipes Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 ^^^ THIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RASH Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 YGBSM. Thankfully, this doesn't happen in the CAF. Saw it for my entire career (11M). One of the reasons I chose to retire at 20... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 YGBSM. Thankfully, this doesn't happen in the CAF. This does happen in the CAF, and happened at your base the last time your sister squadron got back from the desert. Think about how many FAIP wingmen were coming up on their Major's board... Or, ever seen the used-to-be-an-ALO requal'd ADO that's in the IPUG because he's "leadership" now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcola Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 We are and will be way too fat for years to come. In fact, the sooner they retire, the sooner the FGO officer "glut" can start to unplug, and we can get the promotion cycles back on-track. 2. In general, we do not need more -11M's to stay in. Whether or not the airline hiring bonanza occurs is irrelevant at this point in time. Even if the mass exodus kicks off in 2017, the evidence simply does not exist right now to warrant an overreaction on the Air Force's part. On several occasions you've mentioned a "glut" of FGOs and the fact that the "numbers" don't reflect the impending exodus we at the crew dog level are yelping about. Could this have anything to do with the fact that for two years no one was eligible to get out? When the last of the 8 year initials hit their ADSC and made their decisions, that left a period of two years where no one could get out. Of course that led to a "glut." I think over the next few years the numbers will reflect what we are seeing/hearing/feeling at the Sq/Gp/Wg. I'm expecting a decent bonus in '16. Either that or I'll be taking my 16 years of service to the reserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 The glut is O-6s staying to 30, O-5s staying to 24, and O-4s staying to 20. It is why the pin on rate for 03 has been stuck at 113/mo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 This does happen in the CAF, and happened at your base the last time your sister squadron got back from the desert. Think about how many FAIP wingmen were coming up on their Major's board... Or, ever seen the used-to-be-an-ALO requal'd ADO that's in the IPUG because he's "leadership" now? Yeah, that blows, but to be expected. It was rough seeing very low time dudes in the IPUG versus the more experienced non FAIP types, maybe thats why I was always known as a FAIP hater.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11F Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 General Chang - thanks for taking the time to post on here and even answer questions. It is much appreciated and has provided some sanity and level-headedness to this discussion. I have one question: Why is it that guys on the line have to go to a civilian forum and talk to a Star Trek character in front of Mom, the kids, AF Times and Kim Jong Nut Job in order to get insight into the why behind the decisions that effect our lives? I know this much from my little world, it's not because the OG or SQ/CC won't pass the info - they just don't have it, and I doubt the WG/CC does either (I don't know that as a fact). I know this forum is supposed to simulate squadron bar talk, but we A) rarely invite outsiders into the bar and B) remove rank in a roll-call for a reason - so we can speak freely. The fact that there isn't a simple secure AF-only communication tool available in this age of social media is straight up unacceptable and needs to be fixed. And if one exists already, the AF is doing a terrible job of advertising it. And so as not to propose a problem without a solution, PM me and I'll give you my details. Thanks again for your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herk Driver Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Saw it for my entire career (11M). Me too...ended it when I was given the chance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NKAWTG Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 The shortfall the bonus is trying to compensate for is not lack of pilots, but a lack of experienced 11F types who need to fill roles other than flying. Because of the way the Air Force has arranged force structure in the fighter community, there are not enough AD fighter squadrons or cockpits to crank out the experienced 11Fs the Air Force needs. Flowing more pilots out of pilot training to the fighter community will not help because a glut of junior pilots will compete for the already scarce flying hours and slow down everyone's progression. The solution for the supply side is increasing the number fighter cockpits, but that will be decades in the making as the F-35 comes online. The other side is the demand from the Air Force on the 11F community. Your patch wearing bright and shiny types are needed on staffs and in the AOCs to bring that brand of expertise to the planning processes, and operational command and control functions. Your middle of the pack guys are needed in the trigger pulling UAV community. They have tried mitigating this problem by throwing MAF guys into CAF billets (I'm one of them), cutting down the staff manning requirements or just plain not filling spots. For some reason, they desire 11Fs to be the ones flying armed drones, so that is a problem of the Air Force's making. Bottom line is if you sign the 25K a year till 20 bonus, realize the Air Force wants to keep you to do everything but fly. The Air Force needs the skill sets acquired from 10 years of flying the line, just no longer in the cockpit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinner Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Me too...ended it when I was given the chance. Saw it, advised DO & CC against it, & watched a dude wreck a jet. Saying "I told you so." to the DO didn't go over oh so well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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