UPT Next

[Bender 243]

Maybe everyone could just watch Gen Wills' A/TA seminar:
 
https://airlift-tanker-association.s3.amazonaws.com/Virtual+Seminar+Series/Seminar6-14Aug2020.mp4

Vance AFB is conducting UPT 2.5 because “they were just so far ahead of the other bases”...LOL.

Anyone can sign up for stupid anytime they want, doesn’t make one “farther ahead”...I would NOT want to be dealing with this thing in mass as END right now. This thing is hard enough with a single flight SGTO.

Grade A way to become so overwhelmed you learn nothing (just wait until we sprinkle on a little timeline pressure), but that’s just one man’s opinion.

That whole syllabus is going to require a MASSIVE overhaul...not a bad try for writing it in a couple months when no one had any idea what they were doing.

Good luck to Vance & Randolph,
Not to mention Columbus & Laughlin,
~Bendy


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[LookieRookie 248]

6 minutes ago, Bender said:

 

Vance AFB is conducting UPT 2.5 because “they were just so far ahead of the other bases”...LOL.

Anyone can sign up for stupid anytime they want, doesn’t make one “farther ahead”...I would NOT want to be dealing with this thing in mass as END right now. This thing is hard enough with a single flight SGTO.

Grade A way to become so overwhelmed you learn nothing (just wait until we sprinkle on a little timeline pressure), but that’s just one man’s opinion.

That whole syllabus is going to require a MASSIVE overhaul...not a bad try for writing it in a couple month when no one had any idea what they were doing.

Good luck to Vance & Randolph,
Not to mention Columbus & Laughlin,
~Bendy


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Are you at Vance?

 

UPT 2.5 is at Vance because it was developed from Banzai

[Bender 243]

Are you at Vance?
 
UPT 2.5 is at Vance because it was developed from Banzai

I am not at Vance. UPT 2.5 is at Vance because Vance leadership asked it to be, AGAINST the advice of people close to its development.

Banzai is not a Vance term; it’s a PTN term, adopted by every base.

I’m not rooting against you, I just think the acceleration over the last 5-6 months is irresponsible. That isn’t on you or any other IP...

If you think that syllabus, or this effort, is Vance’s, you should go find someone that knows what they’re talking about.

Although, at this point, sometimes I wish it was...

The next 6 months are very important here...we might just scrap this whole F’ing thing.

Again,
Good Luck,
~Bendy

[Clark Griswold 965]

11 hours ago, Homestar said:

Maybe everyone could just watch Gen Wills' A/TA seminar:

https://airlift-tanker-association.s3.amazonaws.com/Virtual+Seminar+Series/Seminar6-14Aug2020.mp4

Watched / listened to his presentation, had valid points on updating the methods of pilot training but I'm just crusty, bitter and clinging to my 3-3 and whiz wheel.

Still advocating for a new and challenging phase 3 for heavy tracked studs

Split the program into a military taught and civilian instructed program with multiple aircraft.  I'm ok with T-6 program increased in length and additional training accomplished there to have Phase 3 focused on different concepts / skills.

- Multi-engine Fundamentals.  30 hours in a Beech Baron G58 for basic twin experience and extensive cross country missions. 

- Tactical Air Mobility Fundamentals.  Low levels, NVG takeoff / landings, short field and grass strips.  Would use a simple, tough aircraft like the aforementioned Husky and probably around 20-30 hours.  

- Strategic Air Mobility Fundamentals.  This could be all sim and I think that could work.  At least a Cat C sim with the student training not to emphasize learning this aircraft backwards and forwards but introduction to managing a sophisticated, fast jet with integrated FMS/AP/AT/CPLDC/etc.. and military specific avionics to manage and execute Air Refuelling, Air Delivery, Air Land.

That's likely 6+ months but just my two cents looking back and what I think would have trained me for what I needed to be able to do when I was first in the right seat of a USAF heavy jet.  Gets the fundamentals done in a cheaper system(s) before the FTU, likely costing more time in SUPT but saving time in the FTU and likely money.

[dream big 544]

3 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

Air Delivery

Going to stop you right their.  Aerial Delivery, or rather “Air Drop,” cannot be taught to proficiency in a sim.  Add in RF threats and other real world factors...forget it.  Anyone who advocates for such is asking for numerous mishaps.  AMC at large is not fucking airline training.  It is no wonder most of the CAF scoffs at us.  

[Clark Griswold 965]

Going to stop you right their.  Aerial Delivery, or rather “Air Drop,” cannot be taught to proficiency in a sim.  Add in RF threats and other real world factors...forget it.  Anyone who advocates for such is asking for numerous mishaps.  AMC at large is not ing airline training.  It is no wonder most of the CAF scoffs at us.  

Not to proficient but introduced and practiced at a level appropriate for an as yet non rated student

Real training and qualifications still are the prerogative of the FTUs


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[sixblades 10]

I think CG was just referring to UPT familiarization. Proficiency would be a very tough ask from a UPT syllabus, especially considering the different 3-1/3-3 TTPs for yet-to-be assigned MDSs. I agree that a more focused look at tactical event execution that incorporates energy management, positional SA, and those go/no-go checkpoints during execution will better prepare studs for what the FTUs will expect from them. 

After sitting in on Gen Holmes' last road show about UPT (PTN, 2.5, or whatever we're on now), it sounds like there are lot of unconventional approaches and just general experimentation in the works. I know I don't envy being in the position that our UPT IPs are in.

[Clark Griswold 965]

On 8/31/2020 at 12:39 AM, sixblades said:

I think CG was just referring to UPT familiarization.

Yup.  

Wanna change my suggestion for the primary multi-engine trainer to the Beech Cougar Baron, turboprop conversion of the venerable Baron.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/august/pilot/pilot-briefing-one-fast-cat

[MechGov 99]

Yup.  
Wanna change my suggestion for the primary multi-engine trainer to the Beech Cougar Baron, turboprop conversion of the venerable Baron.
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/august/pilot/pilot-briefing-one-fast-cat

Cougar Baron: It’s the Baron you like but thoroughly upgraded, with fresher paint and new, larger, firmer glass cockpit and a strong desire to go out for a spin. Also comes with a drinking habit, divorce, 2 grown kids and a carton of Newport’s.

[Clark Griswold 965]

Cougar Baron: It’s the Baron you like but thoroughly upgraded, with fresher paint and new, larger, firmer glass cockpit and a strong desire to go out for a spin. Also comes with a drinking habit, divorce, 2 grown kids and a carton of Newport’s.

I like it even more now

Alive with pleasure

Cultural reference for the younger folks:

https://flashbak.com/alive-with-pleasure-newport-adverts-24078/

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[LiquidSky 30]

So this is what happened to the enlisted grad:

"Senior Airman Brenten Boler graduated Pilot Training Next on August 31, 2019--the only one in his class who was not assigned an airframe. He was assigned to be a T-6A Texan II simulator instructor at Laughlin Air Force Base, Texas." 

https://www.laughlin.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2334934/enlisted-graduate-of-pilot-training-next-instructs-at-laughlin

[SurelySerious 909]

Brutal! They could have at least kept him at KRND. 

[Clark Griswold 965]

There go enlisted volunteers


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[guineapigfury 747]

[dream big 544]

2 hours ago, LiquidSky said:

So this is what happened to the enlisted grad:

"Senior Airman Brenten Boler graduated Pilot Training Next on August 31, 2019--the only one in his class who was not assigned an airframe. He was assigned to be a T-6A Texan II simulator instructor at Laughlin Air Force Base, Texas." 

https://www.laughlin.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2334934/enlisted-graduate-of-pilot-training-next-instructs-at-laughlin

There have already been programs to get sharp enlisted dudes through pilot training.  It is called commissioning. 

[JimNtexas 92]

I wonder if Big Air Force is thinking that the current downturn in airline hiring will continue forever?   Because a Senior Airman new pilot, who works really cheap, would certainly save a lot of bucks.  If O-4/O-5 tend to go airlines at the first opportunity,  how tempted would an E-6 pay grade be?   Unless of course every day is economically like today forever.

[hindsight2020 575]

Enlisted flyers is a red herring in this context. The real goal is to crank up production quotas via training dilution (airline training for heavies, reforge potato sophistry for fighters that depends on t-7 vaporware not anywhere near on time to fielding). Yes they'll deny the real goal, but thats what the doublespeak boils down to. Commissioning or lack thereof is immaterial to the timeline. That pesky task of actual pilot training is. Enlisted accessions is immaterial.

As to the economic paradigm, this has been hashed out ad nauseam. Warrants and enlisted would have a bigger incentive to punch at ATP competitive mins vis a vis commissioned payscales. In fairness, the USAF doesn't care about retention, they only say they do. They are also satisfied with the current level of hull loss, and it looks like they might be cool with a little more, before they'd be willing to cry uncle and shelf this entire effetry currently making the rounds.

As to the enlisted grad,, recognize the experiment for what it was, buckle down and get the g-damn bachelor's and move on with your life. The hard part is already in the bag for him, now he just has to do the attention span requiring part. The lack of need for a degree to learn how to fly an airplane has always been stipulated, but warrants and enlisted flyers aren't gonna come back in earnest so no point in tilting at that windmill. You hear the same shit from airline guys and the perennial kvetching over the de facto  requirement for a degree to compete at the six figure right seat jobs in part 121. No shortage of qualified candidates willing to sling gear in the right seat of a major, considering the absolute surplus of underpaid pilots in the industry. Military won't have any problem continuing to field a degree requirement for fixed wing turbine assets going forward.

[jazzdude 271]

I wonder if Big Air Force is thinking that the current downturn in airline hiring will continue forever?   Because a Senior Airman new pilot, who works really cheap, would certainly save a lot of bucks.  If O-4/O-5 tend to go airlines at the first opportunity,  how tempted would an E-6 pay grade be?   Unless of course every day is economically like today forever.

I wonder what a senior airman costs per year vs a GS-12 sim IP?

Then again, the sim IP or contractor doesn't count against end strength.

As for the SrA pilot jumping ship for the airlines; can't jump ship if all you do is log sim time plus 70 hours in UPT...

[FLEA 513]

1 hour ago, jazzdude said:

 

I wonder what a senior airman costs per year vs a GS-12 sim IP?

Then again, the sim IP or contractor doesn't count against end strength.

As for the SrA pilot jumping ship for the airlines; can't jump ship if all you do is log sim time plus 70 hours in UPT...
 

 

Did he get a 10 year commitment? 

[jazzdude 271]

Did he get a 10 year commitment? 

I don't have any inside info, but I'd assume yes.

[uhhello 127]

3 hours ago, FLEA said:

Did he get a 10 year commitment? 

Longest ADSC for enlisted is 4 years but the way I read the reg, there is no ADSC for what he did.

[SurelySerious 909]

8 hours ago, jazzdude said:

 

I wonder what a senior airman costs per year vs a GS-12 sim IP?

Then again, the sim IP or contractor doesn't count against end strength.

As for the SrA pilot jumping ship for the airlines; can't jump ship if all you do is log sim time plus 70 hours in UPT...
 

 

Don’t think he was looking at the small picture of just enlisted sim IPs. 

[TweetyBird 1]

On 8/25/2020 at 9:57 PM, Danger41 said:

How long are guys sitting casual before starting UPT now? I think we should start those casuals on ground school immediately and get them some basic instructions before they start UPT and give them access to the sim building. Give them basics to develop their hands and some instruction for primacy and that way, they can start the syllabus ahead of most guys and trim time off of how long UPT takes. If the goal is truly to produce talented aviators, let the motivated ones work on it instead of some bullshit casual job. Get rid of syllabus deviation and shit like that and allow students to take care of events themselves ahead of time. Just rewrite those events to make them hours requirements and assign some IP’s to ensure they’re not going full stupid with what they’re doing. Then give them something like a checkride prior to UPT start to ensure they’re at a standard and start them on the syllabus. I honestly think with some basic instruction with this type of training you could cut out large portions of contact and local instrument sorties. 

We got 200+ casuals sitting out here at Columbus...many without even a hint of an UPT start date. Most will be casuals for their entire O-1 career

[Danger41 1,162]

On 10/2/2020 at 1:28 AM, TweetyBird said:

We got 200+ casuals sitting out here at Columbus...many without even a hint of an UPT start date. Most will be casuals for their entire O-1 career

OMG that sounds amazing. Best 10 months of my life was casual.

[Magnum 80]

On 10/1/2020 at 10:28 PM, TweetyBird said:

We got 200+ casuals sitting out here at Columbus...many without even a hint of an UPT start date. Most will be casuals for their entire O-1 career

Here's a crazy idea...

What if, they were attached out to units and were a slightly useful addition to said squadron while being around operational stuff.

A new and crazy idea, I know.