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http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2018/October%202018/Tyndall-F-22s-Left-Behind-Before-Michael-Hit-Possibly-Damaged-Beyond-Repair.aspx

Think anyone will be held responsible for this? It seems the only thing you can be fired for these days is sexual harassment or assault. Something could have been done to move these jets off the base. When we only have 187 of them, they need to be treated as the important national security assets that they are.


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16 hours ago, Clayton Bigsby said:

Always wondered how the USAF justifies basing just about all of the E-3 fleet in the heart of tornado alley.  All it takes is one bad afternoon...

...granted half the fleet is deployed or TDY somewhere, but still.

Same could be said for a lot of bases, if that hurricane went 60 miles west, Hurlburt and Eglin (and pcola) would be leveled. We had several tornados when I was at CBM that missed base by a few miles, I’m sure Vance has been in the same boat. Altus is right there, 

Lots of areas are subject to natural disaster, south has the Hurricanes and long track Tornados, mid west tornados, west coast has wild fires. I would say the safest areas of the nation natural disaster wise are the upper mid west, inland areas of the northwest, and inland areas of northeast. All areas we have few bases. 

Edited by viper154
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22 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2018/October%202018/Tyndall-F-22s-Left-Behind-Before-Michael-Hit-Possibly-Damaged-Beyond-Repair.aspx

Think anyone will be held responsible for this? It seems the only thing you can be fired for these days is sexual harassment or assault. Something could have been done to move these jets off the base. When we only have 187 of them, they need to be treated as the important national security assets that they are.


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48 hours after the base is leveled and you “want some butts” huh?

Wait...F22s need to be treated like national security assets? Why didn’t you call the wing commander to let him know?

You sound Iike you have terrific MAF senior leadership potential. You got any other great words of wisdom?

Edited by BeerMan
Reduced sarcasm
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There are obviously going to be unflyable jets at any location.  I believe it is unreasonable to expect that a Wing can Hurrivac 100% of their jets.  

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Didn't it take Homestead's AD wing a year to get back from McDill? Is it possible the AF might permanently pivot Tyndall's mission footprint as a result of this damage? Or is the damage not rise to the level of Homestead's outcome?  I also recognize the latter was already facing threat from BRAC back in '93 (whereas TY doesn't have such a threat), so the comparison may not be apples to apples.

Edited by hindsight2020

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48 hours after the base is leveled and you “want some butts” huh?
Wait...F22s need to be treated like national security assets? Why didn’t you call the wing commander to let him know?
You sound Iike you have terrific MAF senior leadership potential. You got any other great words of wisdom?

5 jets? Ok. But 20% of the fleet at Tyndall wasn’t flyable with a week’s notice? I’m just saying this is indicative of not holding people accountable. Not reporting the TX church shooter into NICS after beating his family, gross personnel mismanagement circa 2013-2015, and now a 40% mission capable rate causes the loss of these jets worth >$1 billion in taxpayer dollars. I can’t get out of this organization fast enough.


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There are obviously going to be unflyable jets at any location.  I believe it is unreasonable to expect that a Wing can Hurrivac 100% of their jets.  


What are you talking about.... if we’re professional enough 100% is the standard of success in all things... anybody that says otherwise isn’t a team player...

100% for OR rates.... 100% percent for PT tests... 100% participation in volunteer activities.... 100% online training....

Now please pass me some more of this fantastic grape koolaid.


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32 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:


5 jets? Ok. But 20% of the fleet at Tyndall wasn’t flyable with a week’s notice? I’m just saying this is indicative of not holding people accountable. Not reporting the TX church shooter into NICS after beating his family, gross personnel mismanagement circa 2013-2015, and now a 40% mission capable rate causes the loss of these jets worth >$1 billion in taxpayer dollars. I can’t get out of this organization fast enough.


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This kinda highlights SECDEF's recent letter to USAF and USN to availability of F-22, -35, -16, -18 up to 80% by next October.  Stats on article I read had F-22 at 49% or so.  Explains why more than 1-2 were nonflyable at KPAM plus the much more violent hit from the storm than was expected only 36 hours prior.  So the week long warning was misleading.

 

Still needed to buy more F-22s then.  Thanks Bob Gates!👍

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3 hours ago, viper154 said:

Same could be said for a lot of bases, if that hurricane went 60 miles west, Hurlburt and Eglin (and pcola) would be leveled. We had several tornados when I was at CBM that missed base by a few miles, I’m sure Vance has been in the same boat. Altus is right there, 

Lots of areas are subject to natural disaster, south has the Hurricanes and long track Tornados, mid west tornados, west coast has wild fires. I would say the safest areas of the nation natural disaster wise are the upper mid west, inland areas of the northwest, and inland areas of northeast. All areas we have few bases. 

Understood, but the E-3 is kinda key to everything we do.  The other bases are way more limited in terms of fleet dispersal - what, 3 at Kadena, 3 at Elmo?  Less?  One at Boeing Field?  Whatever's TDY to Nellis or overseas?

Tornado hits Dyess, there's still Ellsworth plus whatever's at Eglin, Edwards, Nellis, and deployed.  A little more redundancy.  Then there's also the other bombers that can pick up the slack if need be.  Other than grabbing the NATO AWACS, I'm not sure what else you could do in the case of the E-3 fleet.

Yes, natural disasters can take out any base, it's just in the post-BRAC era it's surprising how much less redundancy there is in certain places.  Whiteman, Offut and Tinker all come to mind.

 

Unrelated - would building HASes like at USAFE fighter bases be more storm-proof-ish? 

And oh, God, the tornados can have Altus!  haha

Edited by Clayton Bigsby

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28 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:


5 jets? Ok. But 20% of the fleet at Tyndall wasn’t flyable with a week’s notice? I’m just saying this is indicative of not holding people accountable. Not reporting the TX church shooter into NICS after beating his family, gross personnel mismanagement circa 2013-2015, and now a 40% mission capable rate causes the loss of these jets worth >$1 billion in taxpayer dollars. I can’t get out of this organization fast enough.


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I don’t know Moose, as smart as you sound, you really should stick around. It sounds like you know everything about running a fighter Wing, fighter ops, Mx generations, hurrivac time lines, civil engineering, leadership, decision making, and accountability. 

Sarcasm aside, dude calm down.  I don’t think “AFPC from 2013-2015” has anything to do with a 150+ MPH storm hitting a base with 1960s infrastructure. You appear to be exhibiting the very attitude of micromanaging leadership that many of us complain about on this board on a regular basis. No one knows what jets are damaged and what jets are not, and once they do know they’re not going to post those details on the inter webs. Give them a chance to figure things out and clear the roads of downed power lines before you start demanding “accountability”

We’d all be better off if we tried to understand things from a different perspective, CAF vs MAF, etc. Shoot first, ask questions later is not the Air Force we want to be.

 

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1 hour ago, hindsight2020 said:

Didn't it take Homestead's AD wing a year to get back from McDill? Is it possible the AF might permanently pivot Tyndall's mission footprint as a result of this damage? Or is the damage not rise to the level of Homestead's outcome?  I also recognize the latter was already facing threat from BRAC back in '93 (whereas TY doesn't have such a threat), so the comparison may not be apples to apples.

Military bases being destroyed by hurricanes in the Florida AO seems to be a recurring problem (just ask Spain); Lets look at Homestead Army Airfield versus a Major Hurricane Round #1 (as just one example).

- The 15 September 1945 the "Homestead Hurricane" completely destroyed Homestead Army Airfield and it was shut down/completely closed in December 1945 for about 9 years. Finally, In mid-1954, an advance party arrived at the old base to begin the clean-up effort, and on Feb. 8, 1955, the installation was reactivated as Homestead Air Force Base (HAFB).

- This same hurricane also completely destroyed Richmond Naval Air Station which "WAS" located about 10 miles NNE of Homestead;  Excerpt of a few key US Navy assets destroyed in the 1945 Homestead Hurricane;  Destroyed - 25 blimps, 366 planes, 150 automobiles, etc etc.

Photo from Richmond Naval Air Station;

Related image

 

Edited by waveshaper

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Other than grabbing the NATO AWACS, I'm not sure what else you could do in the case of the E-3 fleet.



Finally replace the 1960s era plane along with all the other 707 based stuff?

Is it crazy that it just might take an act of godly wrath to give that idea wheels.


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5 hours ago, brickhistory said:

In the same vein as Lawman's post:

1.  If KPAM is a write-off - buildings, sims, etc., does it make sense to A) rebuild it?  B) Move it?

If B) to where and why?

Separate but definitely related to B) is where politically does it make sense for the F-22/ABM schoolhouse/other KPAM missions to go?

I throw the political card because the spoils for rebuilding/moving are going to benefit someone's state/districts.  So who wins and why?

The F-22 was initially supposed to go to Holloman and NM politics got AFSOC into Cannon. With the airspace available out here I wouldn’t be surprised if something ends up in the land of entrapment.

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23 minutes ago, McJay Pilot said:

The F-22 was initially supposed to go to Holloman and NM politics got AFSOC into Cannon. With the airspace available out here I wouldn’t be surprised if something ends up in the land of entrapment.

The F-22 did initially go to Holloman and moved from Holloman to Tyndall.  

Edited by Buddy Spike

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6 hours ago, brickhistory said:

If B) to where and why?

To a location where the Environmental Impact Study will not take 6-9 years before construction begins on the base.  

In any case, I vote for Reese AFB.  

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2 hours ago, Clayton Bigsby said:

Understood, but the E-3 is kinda key to everything we do.  The other bases are way more limited in terms of fleet dispersal - what, 3 at Kadena, 3 at Elmo?  Less?  One at Boeing Field?  Whatever's TDY to Nellis or overseas?

Tornado hits Dyess, there's still Ellsworth plus whatever's at Eglin, Edwards, Nellis, and deployed.  A little more redundancy.  Then there's also the other bombers that can pick up the slack if need be.  Other than grabbing the NATO AWACS, I'm not sure what else you could do in the case of the E-3 fleet.

Yes, natural disasters can take out any base, it's just in the post-BRAC era it's surprising how much less redundancy there is in certain places.  Whiteman, Offut and Tinker all come to mind.

 

Unrelated - would building HASes like at USAFE fighter bases be more storm-proof-ish? 

And oh, God, the tornados can have Altus!  haha

I have flown in many AORs with no E-3s, but I get your point, it would wipe out a majority of the E-3s. Same outcome to pretty much any of the ACC C2ISR fleet, every airframe is pretty much at one place. Loosing Hurlburt would have been a big blow to AFSOC. 

I vote we give Cannon back to ACC, all that great airspace right next to the base to conserve fuel in those F-22s. 

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1 hour ago, viper154 said:

I have flown in many AORs with no E-3s, but I get your point, it would wipe out a majority of the E-3s. Same outcome to pretty much any of the ACC C2ISR fleet, every airframe is pretty much at one place. Loosing Hurlburt would have been a big blow to AFSOC. 

I vote we give Cannon back to ACC, all that great airspace right next to the base to conserve fuel in those F-22s. 

Your vote is automatically thrown out because you can't spell losing...

Edited by Kenny Powers
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5 hours ago, Clayton Bigsby said:

Unrelated - would building HASes like at USAFE fighter bases be more storm-proof-ish? 

Most likely.  

RAF_Alconbury_Nov_2011_18.jpg

Concrete walls, steel doors, build as tough as required.

Rebuild; great location, great airspace and another location to launch from if shit goes downhill in Central/South America and 'Merica needs to respond.

If another base is needed to spread assets to lower risk, I would expand Klamath Falls in Oregon for training ops with Eagles and positioned for a Pacific response if needed.

Edited by Clark Griswold

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Most likely.  
RAF_Alconbury_Nov_2011_18.jpg
Concrete walls, steel doors, build as tough as required.
Rebuild; great location, great airspace and another location to launch from if shit goes downhill in Central/South America and 'Merica needs to respond.
If another base is needed to spread assets to lower risk, I would expand Klamath Falls in Oregon for training ops with Eagles and positioned for a Pacific response if needed.


Until the Cascadia subduction zone makes a massive slip and the ensuing 9.2+ earthquake and giant tsunami destroys everything.

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