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Do T-6 students practice SFO's or forced landings

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23 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

Lets also cut aerobatics and formation too

Those track selecting to T-1 no longer do most aerobatics or "advanced" form.

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Those track selecting to T-1 no longer do most aerobatics or "advanced" form.


How do they know this when advanced aero was done in contact phase? Is it just for guard/reserve who know their airframe?


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2 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

 


How do they know this when advanced aero was done in contact phase? Is it just for guard/reserve who know their airframe?


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The only contact phase now is after track select. Post sim check is transition phase.

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Cool. Lets also cut aerobatics and formation too, since most pilots won't use those skills in their MWS. Also about half of the instrument phase, just add a couple more sims in place. Nav block can go away too, lets save money on TDY costs, just fly airways in the sim. On the heavy track? No need to solo.

Landing at 50kts vs 200 is irrelevant, it's the mentality of being prepared to handle an emergency, especially since most will go on to aircraft where they won't have the option to eject/bailout.

Take away ELPs, and in-jet EP training is practically nil (used to be 2 SSRs to do a non engine emergency, once in late contact and once in instruments).

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If we are going for efficiency, there might be some ideas in what you are sarcastically saying.

I think the USAF spends a ton of time and money doing things the way it was done 40 years ago because we fear change.

I know this happens in UPT because I was a student when the first T-6’s came on line. “Can you believe we are training in single engine props!” Said the old T-37 mafia. “There are gonna be pilots who never fly a jet in their career!”

I was one of the last IFF classes to drop bombs off the AT-38. “Can you believe these new students won’t crank mils manually and have a HUD in the T-38C doing all the work...what a bunch of SNAPs.”

At FTU we were all going to get lost and be lazy because we had EGI instead of a drifting INS and nobody knew how to do a delta update and our standby reticle bombing was horrible. One step away from communism.

In my ops squadron wingman were going to kill themselves if we let them use their targeting pod the same time as FL.

I was a T-38 IP when the magical fix to fix went away....all the students were going to wash out of follow-on courses because of that one.

Back to the CAF....gotta print out maps like we did 20 yrs ago, can’t trust those new avionics with satellite imagery built in. HMCS and datalink was making us all soft.

If we had unlimited resources, teach SFO’s to your hearts content. We don’t so we have to prioritize. You can’t cut it all because we need talent discriminators but once a kid tracks...well a heavy pilot probably doesn’t need a acro and a fighter guy doesn’t need as much crew communication work.




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This is clearly a polarizing issue, but if we have to pick sides I’m with di every damn day on this. I think you nailed it earlier and did so succinctly...we trained people in the Tweet and T-38 prior to this ELP discussion and somehow still made great pilots.

For the people who think touchdown speed is irrelevant, refresh yourself on some basic physics you clowns. 

Edited by Standby

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1 hour ago, Standby said:

 

For the people who think touchdown speed is irrelevant, refresh yourself on some basic physics you clowns. 

a2+B2=c2 bitch

Edited by BashiChuni

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Pretty sure you mean KE=1/2mv^2 

Or maybe that’s my public school education steering me wrong. Whatever, I know how to make the houses get bigger or smaller in the airplane.

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Wow.  I was the topic starter for this thread and didn't realize how it would balloon into 4 pages.  I was just interested in whether the choice for the TX would be a two or single engine jet and if that would influence the decision.  T-33s were used in the early/mid 60s and I'm not sure if students practiced ELP's (SFO's) back then, but it certainly would add a few training sorties if trained.

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This is clearly a polarizing issue, but if we have to pick sides I’m with di every damn day on this. I think you nailed it earlier and did so succinctly...we trained people in the Tweet and T-38 prior to this ELP discussion and somehow still made great pilots.
For the people who think touchdown speed is irrelevant, refresh yourself on some basic physics you clowns. 


Yeah, 50 kts vs 200 into a farmer's field will have very different effects on survivability. But everything leading up to that is similar- maintain aircraft control, get on speed, and get the nose pointed to the best suitable location. It's the decision making process while flying, not necessarily just the ability to recover the jet if a stud is solo and has engine troubles.

Didn't studs in the tweet have to fly single engine approaches and do 4 types of spins?



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50 minutes ago, jazzdude said:


 

 


Yeah, 50 kts vs 200 into a farmer's field will have very different effects on survivability. But everything leading up to that is similar- maintain aircraft control, get on speed, and get the nose pointed to the best suitable location. It's the decision making process while flying, not necessarily just the ability to recover the jet if a stud is solo and has engine troubles.

Didn't studs in the tweet have to fly single engine approaches and do 4 types of spins?



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200? T-6 touchdown speed is 80 knots bruh if you make even a halfassed attempt at flaring. You're at 50 knots in <1500 feet. Much closer to a piston single than a T-38 for instance.

I'd still take the seat though, these airplanes are not national treasures.  

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Yeah yeah, 75 kt touchdown speed landing flaps in the T6 (penguin it's still somehow on the iceberg).

I'll compromise, doesn't need to be a checkride event, but should be at least introduced and taught, maybe to a fair MIF.

The seat is great, until it isn't. Remember when the T6 seat sequencers were bad and FCP was probably going to be stuck in the jet with ISS-both? Good times.

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39 minutes ago, jazzdude said:


I'll compromise, doesn't need to be a checkride event, but should be at least introduced and taught, maybe to a fair MIF.
 

This. Give the stud the basic proficiency to recover. 

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I just have a question or two about this new syllabus:

1. What is transition teaching these guys to transition from?

2. If they aren’t learning contact first, what kind of flying do they do in transition?

I’m just a dumb T-1 guy, but I remember the purpose of our transition phase was to apply the basic skills learned in T-6s to the Tone - VFR patterns, area instrument maneuvers, etc. Not sure what brand new UPT students would be transitioning from, maybe the DA-20?


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A friend of mine currently in T-6s has said they do a mix of area work and instrument approaches. It seems like it’s similar to the T-1 transition phase, just obviously with much shorter sorties. 

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Any front seat rides left in the new syllabus for the IP's or is it back seat only?  

Only flying CT. Nothing in the front with studs.


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So this is a possibly very stupid question, but why is it called “contact” phase? Why not called “basics” or something? I’ve never understood that.

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Because you’re flying with visual “contact” with ground references. That’s how it was explained to me years ago.


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