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Merle Dixon

Pilot retention in your neck of the woods?

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58 minutes ago, Hunter Rose said:

Why all the histrionics?

Because of the AF's track record in this area.  

I personally know of guys that went through training, and after completing training, the MPF came to them telling them they needed to sign paperwork for an ADSC that had been overlooked.  The pilots declined... however, they were still given the ADSC.  

Edited by HuggyU2
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17 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

The pilots declined... however, they were still given the ADSC.  

Story w/ example: I went through the RPA pipeline early on, like 2010, where the AFI that was dated 2009 considered it specialized flying training (or something similar, too lazy to look-up right now) and it only came with a 3-yr ADSC. My class all signs paperwork with that ADSC. Very shortly post-training, the AFI gets updated and includes URT as a separate item with a 6-yr ADSC. Creech MPF comes at us telling us we need to re-sign the paperwork because the reg changed. Half of my class called bullsh!t (older, career changers, including myself) and didn't sign anything, while the other half (all 2d Lt's) signed the paperwork. 2-3 years later, I'm perusing my personal info and notice I have a new ADSC...check with my bros who also didn't sign and they experienced the same. We all put in separate cases to the board for military corrections and they thankfully changed them all back, but only foe those of us that didn't sign anything that second time. The Lts that did got hosed. 

Not to beat a dead horse, but yeah...zero trust

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10 hours ago, DeskPop said:

Story w/ example: I went through the RPA pipeline early on, like 2010, where the AFI that was dated 2009 considered it specialized flying training (or something similar, too lazy to look-up right now) and it only came with a 3-yr ADSC. My class all signs paperwork with that ADSC. Very shortly post-training, the AFI gets updated and includes URT as a separate item with a 6-yr ADSC. Creech MPF comes at us telling us we need to re-sign the paperwork because the reg changed. Half of my class called bullsh!t (older, career changers, including myself) and didn't sign anything, while the other half (all 2d Lt's) signed the paperwork. 2-3 years later, I'm perusing my personal info and notice I have a new ADSC...check with my bros who also didn't sign and they experienced the same. We all put in separate cases to the board for military corrections and they thankfully changed them all back, but only foe those of us that didn't sign anything that second time. The Lts that did got hosed. 

Not to beat a dead horse, but yeah...zero trust

My point you kind of proved with your story.  The LTs voluntarily signed and therefore agreed to the additional ADSC.  Those like you who did not sign did not get the additional ADSC.

The AF can't MAKE you sign a legal document agreeing to an ADSC. If the board didn't correct your records that's when you go to the IG or log a Congressional complaint with your Congressman etc.

I'm not ignorant at all to AFPC and lack of trust, but that has been the AF and rest of the military for  for the last 40+ years, sounds like people bitching after the fact because they refused to take a stand.

 

 

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Pipe down, Hunter Rose.  

You asked "why the histrionics?"  And you were given an answer.  Yes, in Desk Pop's case it got fixed.  But it required effort on the part of those on the receiving end.  Effort that creates stress on future career plans.  Effort required to go to MPF, deal with MPF, and in some cases deal with AFPC.  It's a pain in the ass.  

In the case of some people I know, they did NOT get their ADSC commitment straightened out.  I also personally had to deal with this issue, though I was victorious against the Evil Empire.  

I've heard the excuses from AFPC and MPF when dealing with this issue in the past.  Have you?  If not, feel free to publish your email and phone number, and you can volunteer to un-fuck this problem for all of the BO.net people that end up in this situation.  Your efforts would be appreciated.  

Edited by HuggyU2
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Losing a six figure civilian job conditional over the military stonewalling you with the threat of imprisonment or UA because of service commitment date fucketry, hoo boy. if that's where we are at, we are straight fucked. Hell I'm a full time Reservist and as of this writing, I am not inclined to sign the AGR bonus, and I'm not airline-seeking mind you. That's how fucking terrible things are right now.

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2 hours ago, Hunter Rose said:

My point you kind of proved with your story.  The LTs voluntarily signed and therefore agreed to the additional ADSC.  Those like you who did not sign did not get the additional ADSC.

The AF can't MAKE you sign a legal document agreeing to an ADSC. If the board didn't correct your records that's when you go to the IG or log a Congressional complaint with your Congressman etc.

I'm not ignorant at all to AFPC and lack of trust, but that has been the AF and rest of the military for  for the last 40+ years, sounds like people bitching after the fact because they refused to take a stand.

 

 

They can’t make you sign, but they certainly have signaled that they are more than willing to take advantage of those who don’t read the fine print. Many of us joined at a time when the core values could be reasonably expected to go both ways. You applied them and could expect them to be applied by the organization in return. No shit, it actually worked like that for a while. I think the post Vietnam generation of leaders truly internalized a lot of lessons from that conflict and the result benefited military members immensely for some time. Sadly, those guys are all retired now and we are left with an overwhelmingly self serving, careerist mentality. If you can operate effectively in that environment, great. For many of us, that’s not what we signed up for and it just happens to turn out that civilian hiring picked up just about the time the Air Force threw its integrity in the shitter. 

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Losing a six figure civilian job conditional over the military stonewalling you with the threat of imprisonment or UA because of service commitment date etry, hoo boy. if that's where we are at, we are straight ed. Hell I'm a full time Reservist and as of this writing, I am not inclined to sign the AGR bonus, and I'm not airline-seeking mind you. That's how ing terrible things are right now.

Sign the AGR bonus man. You can always resign your agr position. Which requires you to give up your bonus. The bonus outside of active duty doesn’t require you to stay like active duty.

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8 minutes ago, Guardian said:


Sign the AGR bonus man. You can always resign your agr position. Which requires you to give up your bonus. The bonus outside of active duty doesn’t require you to stay like active duty.

LOL Are you new? That is NOT how it works my man. I'm a career AGR, going on 9 years to be exact. I know the gig. And even more to your point, I have point blank witnessed someone have his Delta CJO compromised over this very scenario. Straight up curtailment application DENIED with a DL CJO in hand. I don't know where you got your gouge as to retention rules in the AGR program, but it's not accurate.

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1 hour ago, hindsight2020 said:

LOL Are you new? That is NOT how it works my man. I'm a career AGR, going on 9 years to be exact. I know the gig. And even more to your point, I have point blank witnessed someone have his Delta CJO compromised over this very scenario. Straight up curtailment application DENIED with a DL CJO in hand. I don't know where you got your gouge as to retention rules in the AGR program, but it's not accurate.

Lol, username checks out...  

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LOL Are you new? That is NOT how it works my man. I'm a career AGR, going on 9 years to be exact. I know the gig. And even more to your point, I have point blank witnessed someone have his Delta CJO compromised over this very scenario. Straight up curtailment application DENIED with a DL CJO in hand. I don't know where you got your gouge as to retention rules in the AGR program, but it's not accurate.

Nope. Must be a difference between guard and reserve. Guard we can give it up at the drop of a hat. Sorry. I assumed it was the same for reserves.  

Guard can resign your AGR and in the process you cease to be eligible for your bonus. There are payback schedules written into the guard bonus depending on how many years served for the bonus.

 

It’s absolutely accurate for the guard and tested in my unit several times over the recent few years.

 

Check afpc for the guard bonus paperwork and wording.

 

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1 hour ago, Guardian said:

Nope. Must be a difference between guard and reserve. Guard we can give it up at the drop of a hat. Sorry. I assumed it was the same for reserves.  

Guard can resign your AGR and in the process you cease to be eligible for your bonus. There are payback schedules written into the guard bonus depending on how many years served for the bonus.

 

It’s absolutely accurate for the guard and tested in my unit several times over the recent few years.

 

Check afpc for the guard bonus paperwork and wording.

 

Yeah, chalk another one up for AFRC being AD without the name. I do find it hilarious that the retention bonus in the Guard doesn't actually retain you. Truly free money unlike the AFRC. I bet ya the whole title 32 vs title 10 is probably part of the difference. At any rate, yeah I told the wife I'm gonna take a lap on this whole bonus thing UFN. Things are changing too fast around here. Time to sit and watch for a little bit. 

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Keep it up, Big Blue. The young guys are watching. Today’s lack of seriousness and honesty is tomorrow’s retention problem. And worse yet, tomorrow’s recruiting problem. 

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12 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

Yeah, chalk another one up for AFRC being AD without the name. 

This, and so many other reasons, is why I'll always advise my AD bros to go to the Guard over the Reserves.  I have to laugh when they decide to go from AD to full time in the Reserves at the same base and then act suprised when it's same shit/different patch...  ANG squadrons that are on their own base and not attached to anything AD, are the last bastion of hope.  Sadly, even that is fading.

To add another anecdote, we've (ANG) had a few guys curtail their AGR while on the bonus.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Guard starts to play hard ball with this though.  Pretty much every full-timer has left is is planning to leave ASAP.  Some have even gone to the regionals to get their hours faster.  Many have come back on order but usually take the small bonus, "just in case."  

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If you're a qualified Fighter Pilot and not a 2LT or Col, you can probably go anywhere. Units across all airframes are hiring and most seem to have TX slots. Everyone is looking to replace the guys leaving full time for the airlines.

Purely observation from the emails I've seen going around the Guard but you could probably pick the unit you want to fly with and I bet they're looking for experience dudes.

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If you're a qualified Fighter Pilot and not a 2LT or Col, you can probably go anywhere. Units across all airframes are hiring and most seem to have TX slots. Everyone is looking to replace the guys leaving full time for the airlines.
Purely observation from the emails I've seen going around the Guard but you could probably pick the unit you want to fly with and I bet they're looking for experience dudes.

Agreed. Tactical background is liquid gold right now.

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To the OP: I'm the only 11M in my organization.  I just requested a reclama to stick around and wait out my ADSC.  if that doesn't work I'll 7 day opt.  I intend to palace chase/separate when it expires.

Ironically, I've been trying to PCS early to get back into flying on the AD side.  I can't prove it (unless my functional has the data), but I don't think my leadership actually requested to put me on previous VMLs despite telling me they would.  Now, the AF has changed the ADSC reg and I'm not dealing with its BS any longer.  But no, I'm not salty. :D

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Nope. Must be a difference between guard and reserve. Guard we can give it up at the drop of a hat. Sorry. I assumed it was the same for reserves.  Guard can resign your AGR and in the process you cease to be eligible for your bonus. There are payback schedules written into the guard bonus depending on how many years served for the bonus.

 

It’s absolutely accurate for the guard and tested in my unit several times over the recent few years.

 

Check afpc for the guard bonus paperwork and wording.

 

 

Actually this is not true. Curtailment of an AGR tour must be TAG approved. If he or she doesn't approve it you cannot leave. It's called being AWOL.

 

Historically, there has always been a long, distinguished line of dudes willing to cut off one of their testicals for an AGR job so I don't think anyone has had to challenge the manpower issue. Those people are becoming few and far in between.

 

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Actually this is not true. Curtailment of an AGR tour must be TAG approved. If he or she doesn't approve it you cannot leave. It's called being AWOL.
 
Historically, there has always been a long, distinguished line of dudes willing to cut off one of their testicals for an AGR job so I don't think anyone has had to challenge the manpower issue. Those people are becoming few and far in between.
 
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I would have to see your reference. Mine is in my bonus paperwork that talks about resigning your AGR. Doesn’t say anything about mandatory service or adsc that I have ever seen.

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I would have to see your reference. Mine is in my bonus paperwork that talks about resigning your AGR. Doesn’t say anything about mandatory service or adsc that I have ever seen.

 

 

Ask and you shall receive. I am very familiar with the reference because I took the following info into my commander a few years ago when he called me in to ask me why I didn't apply to an open AGR job in the Squadron. Mind you, I was already an ART, but it threw up a red flag when he saw I didn't apply for it. AGR jobs have historically been used as carrots in my unit and well, this rabbit got sick of carrots. 

 

AIR NATIONAL GUARD INSTRUCTION 36-101

3 JUNE 2010

Certified Current 14 August 2014

 

AIR NATIONAL GUARD ACTIVE GUARD RESERVE (AGR) PROGRAM

 

Chapter 8: TOUR CURTAILMENT, SEPARATION, AND RETIREMENT

 

8.1. General. 8.1.1. TAG is the final authority for determining whether individuals will be separated from the AGR program except for officers within the sanctuary zone who’s separation must be approved by the Secretary of the Air Force (SAF). AGR personnel must complete the specified period of their orders unless released due to any of the following provisions:

 

8.1.1.1. An approved request for voluntary tour curtailment (para 8.4).

8.1.1.2. An involuntary tour curtailment (para 8.5).

8.1.1.3. Involuntary release (para 8.6). 8.1.1.4. Involuntary discharge (para 8.7). 8.1.1.5. Mandatory separation (para 8.8). . 8.1.1.6. Retirement – Active Duty (para 8.9). 8.1.1.7. Retirement – Reserve (para 8.10).

 

8.4. Voluntary Tour Curtailment. Normally an AGR must serve 24 months of their current assignment and complete applicable service commitments before early release is approved.

 

8.4.1. AGRs may request early release from their AGR tour based on personal hardship or other valid reason. They must submit a fully justified curtailment request through their chain of command (including the HRO) to TAG, who is the final approval/disapproval authority. This authority may be delegated to the HRO. .

 

8.4.2. Airmen who voluntarily request separation from AGR status are not entitled to separation pay (Title 10 U.S.C. Section 1174, DoDFMR and JFTR). This includes when an Airman voluntarily accepts a position as a military technician.

 

8.4.3. Due to end-strength accounting considerations, any voluntary curtailment requests submitted between 1 July and 30 September with a requested DOS prior to 31 October can only be approved by TAG (for Title 32 State AGRs) or appropriate authority as outlined in ANGI 36-6, The Air National Guard Statutory Tour Program Policies and Procedures (for Title 10 ANG Statutory Tour AGRs) or delegated authority.

 

8.4.4. AGRs who have an approved tour curtailment application and who later request withdrawal of the curtailment action, must have approval to withdraw the curtailment from the final command signatory for the action.

 

Now, I have seen a couple of AGR's in my unit leave for greener pastures years and years ago before airline hiring went TRT and naturally, they had no problems finding a line out the door of highly qualified replacements. Times have changed big time. With all that being said, would the TAG deny your request? Maybe, maybe not. People think full-time ARC manning may be dismal now, but poop hasn't gotten real... yet. The ARC is going to have a catastrophic full-time manning issue by FY20. There's an ART in my unit who has only been an Aircraft Commander for about a year and a half just got picked up by a Legacy with 500 hrs PIC. He was our next IP candidate. We will be unable to maintain an experienced full-time force to chief our shops and run the show. Experience- dependant shops like OGV and OST are being dessimated. The only way to fix this is more AGR billets, service commitments and denying AGR tour curtailments, but when and where do you start this? The full-time gig has progressively become less and less attractive over the years with the phase out of the CSRS program, 3 for 1 alert tours that became 2 for 1 alert tours that become zero alert tours for most of us, higher employee FERs contributions, higher healthcare premiums, etc. The ART program is dying a painful death and they will not fix it fast enough. It takes 5-6 years to groom an IP in the Guard. If I get a new copilot from FTU tomorrow, I need him here, full-time, for at least 5 years before I'll dare make him an IP. How do I keep him as a full-timer for that long when Legacies are calling guys with 2000 hrs total and 500 hrs PIC? The ARC has no leg to stand on without a hardball retention tool and I'm not talking about bonuses and the old, "this is such a great gig" BS. The problem with that is, well, we become no different than the Active Duty component and we see just how well that's working out for them.

 

If you thought the AGR program was all the Active Duty pay and bennies without the PCS'ing and with no possibility of eating a shit sandwich, you were mistaken. Sorry bro... you're Active Duty (in the Guard).

 

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I have yet to see our TAG disapprove a curtailment....though I suspect that will change soon, if it hasn't already.  

 

The TAG will most likely back Wing and JFHQ leadership if they wanted it denied due to critical full-time manning effecting mission-readiness. Seems like a no-brainer to me if I am the TAG and my Wings can't meet mission requirements. If the TAG hasn't been briefed about the impending manning issues, it's no fault of his/her own for approving curtailments. You most likely haven't seen it yet because your leadership has been cocky, has had their heads in the sand, and/or just hasn't wanted to play hardball yet.

 

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