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Merle Dixon

Pilot retention in your neck of the woods?

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I understand that part, trust me not doing anything to extend my adsc past my UPT adsc at all. But the rumor, (I know probably wasting my time thinking about it) is that AC or IP will no longer be concurrent. It will add time to your UPT ADSC. Just wondering if anyone else has heard this. 

My guess is this is just rumor mill gone rampant. The new ADSC reg says nothing about tacking ADSCs on to the end of UPT. The chart just spells out what ADSC you are given for specific flying training, and the note saying it could not extend past 10 years rated service is now absent.

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Slightly dated second hand info: One MAF base had a retention of 3/12 in one year group this past summer as dudes came up on their 10 year.  Most of those leaving were IPs.

First person data: I personally know 4 near-year group WOs in my MDS that are actively planning to punch to the airlines.  If that's how our WOs are doing, the rest of the community is probably already out the door.

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In my unit, most full-time (ART) Capt/Maj types are leaving as fast as the Legacies can hire them. They are offering ART bonuses, but they aren't helping. The last few ART's we hired were straight out of UPT and I see that trend continuing.

We hired a bunch of traditionals off active duty from either the Palace Chase/Front years ago, but most of them got Legacy airline jobs shortly after separating and most of them who've served their ANG commitments are going IRR way before 20.

We have other traditionals taking ALO or non-flying ARC jobs before 20. We have traditionals that are not staying a day beyond 20 yrs.

Majors are still being told to do ACSC to be promoted before ROPMA or get position vacancied. Very few want it. I'll take my chances with ROPMA without ACSC. If I get to 20 as an O-4, great. I'm out. If I get to 20 with 2-yrs TIG as an O-5, I'll have a tough decision to make, but I'll probably still push the button and retire as an O-4. The retirement pay is not that different with 20 years in service and I'll have an ART FERs to make up the difference.

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10 hours ago, ExHerc said:

I understand that part, trust me not doing anything to extend my adsc past my UPT adsc at all. But the rumor, (I know probably wasting my time thinking about it) is that AC or IP will no longer be concurrent. It will add time to your UPT ADSC. Just wondering if anyone else has heard this. 

Where it exists, please actively and strategically educate this rumor away in your place of business. Though surely unintentional (right... right?!) , it functions like an element of PSYOP.  

For a young guy whose first thought of requal ADSCs is a mistaken “tacking onto the end” concept, replacing it with the new rule doesn’t seem so bad. “What’s the big deal?” they might say.

That young guy may completely miss the collossal foul that is changing a rule, without pre-change messaging, without post-change explanation, and without an apparent understanding of effective incentive structures beyond authoritarianism [bad labor economics!!], which will have significantly negative implications for both individuals and the force. (Read: Loss of trust, more 7 days, lower quality staff, X to fill [X-lots] non-vol 365s etc.)

Don’t allow anything to persist that normalizes this environment or teaches the next generation of leaders that it’s OK to implement bad policy without doing the math or talking about it as long as it doesn’t seem like anybody will notice. 

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No

Which begs the question, if an AC is flying with 2 CPs and can’t claim PIC time for their bunk/other time, shouldn’t one of the CPs be allowed to? What if you have 2 ACs, can the non A-code claim PIC while the A code isn’t at the controls?

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There is a difference between PIC and what you are describing. We log Primary, Secondary, and Other time. If it’s your leg to actively fly, you get primary. If you are in the seat but acting as Pilot Monitoring, you get secondary. If you are not in either the pilot or co-pilot seat, you get other time. Both pilots flying the plane get credit for actual flight hours because the airplane requires 2 pilots. Usually we just evenly divide up the time among the 3 pilots instead of nit picking who was where for how long.

There is no place on a 781 to log “PIC” time. If I’m the AC and I’m in the bunk, I still get PIC time for the whole sortie since I signed for the jet. It’s on us in our personal logbooks to accurately represent our PIC time.

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There is a difference between PIC and what you are describing. We log Primary, Secondary, and Other time. If it’s your leg to actively fly, you get primary. If you are in the seat but acting as Pilot Monitoring, you get secondary. If you are not in either the pilot or co-pilot seat, you get other time. Both pilots flying the plane get credit for actual flight hours because the airplane requires 2 pilots. Usually we just evenly divide up the time among the 3 pilots instead of nit picking who was where for how long.

There is no place on a 781 to log “PIC” time. If I’m the AC and I’m in the bunk, I still get PIC time for the whole sortie since I signed for the jet. It’s on us in our personal logbooks to accurately represent our PIC time.

Yeah, I’m plenty well versed on filling out a 781. Some airlines don’t consider your Other time while the A-code as PIC.

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My squadron has PCS'd maybe 3-4 people in my four years here.  2/3 last commanders retired vs continuing their careers, (3rd one didnt because he enjoys pain). Rumor was multiple eligible commanders turned down taking over one of our 38 squadrons in favor of getting out sooner.  When I was a O-3 every other O-3 in the unit was chilling around a table and not one stated they desired to stay in.  Most of the other IPs that hide their cards are also starting to show them as they come assignment eligible and decide to bail.  

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2 hours ago, ihtfp06 said:


Yeah, I’m plenty well versed on filling out a 781. Some airlines don’t consider your Other time while the A-code as PIC.

Then subtract it out of your total PIC time you logged in your logbook.  Easy.

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23 hours ago, ExHerc said:

Dream big, saw your confused "emoji". I only have 4 years left and I am currently going through initial qual for a different airframe. No way I'm adding more time to get AC, I'll gladly go out as a major/co-pilot. But would prefer not to. Hope that clarifies. 

Nah man I got it! The confused was to your last statement where allegedly AC upgrade and IP upgrade adds an ADSC that does not run concurrent to existing ADSCs.  Like others have mentioned I hope it’s a bad rumor. 

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On 8/9/2018 at 2:31 AM, MooseAg03 said:


My guess is this is just rumor mill gone rampant. The new ADSC reg says nothing about tacking ADSCs on to the end of UPT. The chart just spells out what ADSC you are given for specific flying training, and the note saying it could not extend past 10 years rated service is now absent.

Would you be willing to bet 2-3 years worth of airline seniority on this?  I hate to say it, but I just wouldn’t put it past the AF to remove a simple sentence like that specifically to back-door (no STS required) a bunch of unsuspecting Capt/Maj types.

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Would you be willing to bet 2-3 years worth of airline seniority on this?  I hate to say it, but I just wouldn’t put it past the AF to remove a simple sentence like that specifically to back-door (no STS required) a bunch of unsuspecting Capt/Maj types.

I’m not trusting the Air Force with anything, but that’s never how ADSCs have worked. So by that logic, when you complete PIQ/FTU following UPT, you just bought yourself a de-facto 14 year commitment (1 year UPT + 10 year ADSC + 3 year ADSC)? A change that monumental should be explained well before hand, but who knows with this management - this may be their way of extending UPT to a 15+ year commitment.
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I’m not trusting the Air Force with anything, but that’s never how ADSCs have worked. So by that logic, when you complete PIQ/FTU following UPT, you just bought yourself a de-facto 14 year commitment (1 year UPT + 10 year ADSC + 3 year ADSC)? A change that monumental should be explained well before hand, but who knows with this management - this may be their way of extending UPT to a 15+ year commitment.

We’ll have no ACs or leads anymore, lmao

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8 hours ago, MooseAg03 said:


I’m not trusting the Air Force with anything, but that’s never how ADSCs have worked. So by that logic, when you complete PIQ/FTU following UPT, you just bought yourself a de-facto 14 year commitment (1 year UPT + 10 year ADSC + 3 year ADSC)? A change that monumental should be explained well before hand, but who knows with this management - this may be their way of extending UPT to a 15+ year commitment.

Agree completely!  This should have been written more clearly and explained up-front.  

I have zero trust in the AF to do the right thing by their people, thus my belief that this is yet another shady tactic to screw airmen in order to prop up percentages on some bullshit slide at HQ.

RUN!  Fucking run!!!

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On 8/8/2018 at 2:54 PM, Merle Dixon said:

I'm wondering, how is pilot retention in your community these days? 

Pretty friction' awesome.  No one wants to leave, and we have 11,000 applications on file.  

Is it not like that where you work?

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7 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

Pretty friction' awesome.  No one wants to leave, and we have 11,000 applications on file.  

Is it not like that where you work?

I only knew 2 U-2 pilots but both bailed at 10 years, can you provide data? 

11,000 apps doesn’t automatically = retention. Better question is what percentage of majors stayed past commitment, vice inbounds already past their original ADSC. 

Also, what was your bonus take rate in 17 & 18?

Not questioning your judgement, just curious. 

Edited by BroncoEN
Added question
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Shhhh.... Don't tell anyone.  He's talking about his airline employer has 11,000 apps on file.  

And Huggy, I dunno.  Seems everyone is leaving my seat for the Bus!  Maybe we need a retention bonus!

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1 minute ago, nunya said:

He's talking about his airline employer has 11,000 apps on file.  

Well then... disregard all. Doh.

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So how does one get screwed by the AF with an additional ADSC?  

Just don't accept the ADSC if you don't want it.  They can't force you into an ADSC, you have to agree/sign for it. Just say no I do not accept the additional ADSC and will not upgrade.

Why all the histrionics?

Edited by Hunter Rose

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35 minutes ago, Hunter Rose said:

So how does one get screwed by the AF with an additional ADSC?  

Just don't accept the ADSC if you don't want it.  They can't force you into an ADSC, you have to agree/sign for it. Just say no I do not accept the additional ADSC and will not upgrade.

Why all the histrionics?

Must be pretty green on your side of the woods. That or you are quite ignorant to the fallout that can happen to not signing. 

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