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Civilian T-6 IPs?

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2 hours ago, Termy said:

I would have to question the sanity or background of anyone who chose to work as a retiree civilian at a upt base for under $200k a year. Omitting the 6-9 people from those areas, you’d have to be unhireable at the airline or have some serious skeletons in the closet. 

Exactly. Working as a former mil pilot at GS-13 pay at a UPT location more than likely means they can’t get hired anywhere else. Not good. 

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1 hour ago, RTB said:

Working as a former mil pilot at GS-13 pay at a UPT location more than likely means they can’t get hired anywhere else. Not good. 

I wouldn't be too quick to judge.  

I know some that have done this simply because the QOL for them was excellent, and that mattered way more than the pay.  

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8 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

I wouldn't be too quick to judge.  

I know some that have done this simply because the QOL for them was excellent, and that mattered way more than the pay.  

Yeah good point. For me, QoL and Del Rio don’t exist in the same sentence but I’m sure it would for some. 

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Maybe things are different now, but UPT IP used to be a decent home life gig for the always-deployed guys, even if you were in CBM/DLF/END.  More ops-ops will only increase the burnout rate.  I know I enjoyed the break from the MAF (i.e. most of the year in OKAS/OTBH/OAIX), even if it was shortlived.

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Would it surprise you if I told you that, much like joining in the first place, not everyone is concerned solely with money. A stable job at GS-13, with a retirement, might be plenty for folks who enjoy more challenging flying than pushing a button and letting the computer take over. Delta isn't going to let you do a split-S in their new Dreamliner, after all.

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10 years ago, this would have worked even with the pay cut. All I am saying is that in this economy for pilots, the AF wants cheap fixes, and there ain’t none.

There are ways to fix this thing, it’s just gonna cost some money, which the AF is too scared to lobby Congress to do, since this was truly all caused by the AF “management” in the first place and they would have to admit they made mistakes.

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6 minutes ago, Jaded said:

Most airline guys couldn't even do that part time because of the FAA 100 hour rule, correct?

Not necessarily.  The reg says "commercial" flying.  Mil flying generally does not count as commercial flying.  Not withstanding a furlough, most airline guys won't do it because it's not worth their time.  Those that want to do it already are as reservists.

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It will work if UPT opens at Alliance.


The airspace limitations alone would make this plan unfeasible. Would be an awesome place for UPT though!

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If you opened a new UPT base and co-located it with an ARC RPA unit you probably could get some takers.

Fly the UPT line for a few weeks, pick up some orders and direct the droid.  Rinse lather repeat. 

Decent location, civilian flying job and ARC duty in one location and ZERO AF BS when not flying, this could turn out to be a decent deal if done right.

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6 hours ago, pawnman said:

Delta isn't going to let you do a split-S in their new Dreamliner, after all.

When did Delta buy a Dreamliner?!  Damn, now I need to go update my bid preferences...

 

Only messing with you  :beer:

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Oh, this shit again? Jesus, how little memory this place has....

Yeah, this is just going to attract the unhirables period dot. No offense to the retirees who can't or won't  do the airlines and wouldn't mind playing jet pilot for a paycut, this is statistically not going to carve up enough qualified volume to matter. 

I know I know, broad brush, but we went through this shit when they tried to ram the ART conversion at DLF. In the end they had to relent and give us the carve out to the policy. There were simply no takers of consequence. It's always been the same shit with ARTs, prototypical dudes who value getting any federal job as long as it's in this one town, or with townie-dependents, plus an unwillingness or, more often than not, outright inability to get hired at the airlines. And the toxicity that arises from ART leadership out of that demographic is a well established quantity amongst TR circles. None of this is new.

The problem in this particular variation of this bad idea, is that from a straight GS perspective, it gets even worse because the payscale delta gets ridiculously worse from the AGR/AD benchmark. And we haven't even dealt with the survivor benefit issues when a civilian pulls military ejection handles vice ARC, vice AD. RegAF guys simply have no clue on these nuances. 

You guys think it's merely about living the simple life post-retirement and getting to fly a fun(ish) clapped out jet, but work dynamics are much more complicated than that. Don't be naive, the friction associated with doing the same job as the other guy for an almost 50K paycut does not go unnoticed. You can't keep AGRs and ARTs from each other's throats, and you think a non-SSR table -2181 series GS making flat GS-13 like a goddamn border patrol guy schmuck, is not gonna dagger at the ARC full-timers or AD green suiters over what he deems a fair level of participation in the organization for his paycut?  And now you have an AD OPCON SQ/CC that has to tolerate the same level of title V scoff as they currently tolerate from the sim cadre leadership? Look, I get the schadenfreude for giving UPT IPs a paycut is strong on here, but the second tier effects of this proposal will make the UPT environment more toxic than it already is, by opening up the doors for these statistical-outliers to keep doing this job for a paycut in proverbial Del Rio. Extremely myopic.

And I do know that the dynamics of places like Pensacola were not as rosy as described on here either. I know because we have a guy from there who double dipped as a green suiter and tan suiter, and is now at United when they finally gave him the finger about GS-13 as a T-1 pilot for the nav program down there. The level of toxicity was incredible at that outfit, and people left in droves. And that's in P-cola, CBM DLF and END have no chance of this gaining critical mass.

The only proposition of this bad idea we had heard about on the ARC side "town hall" early this year that I think might have gained traction, was civilian contractor UPT at KAFW.  Internationals only, all civilian run, fort worth in order to get these yahoos enough of an geographic incentive to do my job for 50K less, with that crappy FERS retirement, without the ART SSR pay even. 

The reality is that the people who could staff these billets as qualified (aka mil retires) are statistically insignificant. This isn't conjecture, we literally went through this exercise in 2013.  The rest of the applicants will be the broken toys from the OPM/USAJOBS cesspool who mine that hiring system. Complete unqualified retards. We had anywhere from affirmative action web-footed african american lesbian secretary, to a no-shit ARMY tank driver with a PPL, to a female Affirm action UND graduate 23yo fresh CFI with no turbine experience.. all flagged as qualified for my job (when I was a T-6 IP). Let's stop wasting each others time. And it went nowhere when informed and rational heads prevailed. We just wasted hundreds of man hours repeating ourselves until it predictably went nowhere. And lost people to the airlines due to nothing more than lack of predictability in the midst of this terrible idea being proffered as a threat to their career prospects within the ARC. Stupid. The fact that this end should have been self-evident to the people in charge, was my only gripe over the entire god damn question.

You guys keep tilting at them windmills though. 

Edited by hindsight2020
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On 12/17/2017 at 5:32 AM, Duck said:

From what I know, this has been approved and will be showing up at a UPT base near you...

Highlights from someone in the know:

-The pay as of now is not competitive. ~$100K/yr and from what I saw was a fairly flat pay scale, little incentive to stick around.

-Ideally looking for fresh separated guys/gals, but I personally don’t see how they are going to entice them away from going the Airline route. Maybe thinking people will sign up just so they can fly and not deal with AD/ARC BS? Tough sell with low pay in my opinion.

-AETC/CC has completely championed this idea from what I was told and wants it implemented at all UPT bases eventually.

-God help us.

Maybe they are putting all these “sure to fail ideas” out there as bait for stop loss? 

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On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 9:59 AM, YoungnDumb said:

I'll throw my 2 cents in.  I've been to Rucker and seen how their civilians implement and by and large it seems pretty well managed/run given that the civilians only teach contact (transition I think they call it) and instruments then the green suiters teach all the other stuff.  I could see something similar working in T-6's.  The big thing I worry about is if the AF made it all civilian.  At that point you turn it into the same shit show that sim land is, the majority of the sim IP's are way out of touch, spend most of the time talking about the Tweet or having 'nam flashbacks in the middle of a sim, and care more about how accurate your instrument cockpit check was than actually teaching a kid how to fly instruments.  At many points during my tour as an IP did I have to re-explain basic instrument things to a student because the sim IP was focused on crap that hasn't mattered since the 60's.  I mean hell I told a sim IP I used the GPS to go direct for 300+ miles in the -38 and you would have thought the world was ending because I used the GPS and not ground based NAVAIDs.

I will second this.

There is a huge benefit to having years and years of not only flight experience, but experience as an instructor for a military organization.  I had an instructor who was an off the street guy.  He was the best instructor that I had because he cared more about teaching me how to be a pilot than he did about all the military bull shit.  The civilians I flew with whether prior military or not, genuinely cared about making you the best pilot that they could produce and were not afraid to chew you out when you deserved it.   I probably got chewed out more by the civilians than I did the military IP's that I had later on during IERW.  Many of us had our civilian IP's show up to our graduations to show their support, and even pinned their former students wings on if they did not have family in attendance.

As to whether this is the best move for big blue...I cannot speak to that as I can only share my experience as it was a positive one.

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This wouldn’t be a bad idea, if said individuals were former military pilots.  There would be several advantages, but the key one would be that they could focus on instruction and not non-flying queep.  

Now, this is all contingent upon getting many volunteers, which is highly skeptical considering locales and opportunity cost of airline pay. 

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On 12/16/2017 at 12:54 PM, viper154 said:

At no point in pilot training was I ever afraid of a green suit IP. (3 years ago) They knew there was a fine line and if they hurt feelings to much aka swearing at a student they would being have a talk with the CC. There were some crusty old civilian sim instructors that would absolutely destroy you and your entire life, they gave 0 s and knew it was about impossible to fire them.   Couple of them really knew how to

put the fear of god in you. 

 We had 2 students who busted a standup and were washed out for it! One guy got so nervous that he passed out, the other screwed it up so royally that the Flt CC and all the IP's went on a rampage against this guy and he busted his next 5 rides, and washed out of 38's.  Previously he was a strong student, so they gave him a extra ride or two, but he was shell shocked and couldn't recover...CBM 86-87l. And none of the IP's were our "Bro" they were actually not allowed to fraternize with students, even off base over a beer etc..

a different time for sure.

Edited by Vito

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6 hours ago, Vito said:

 We had 2 students who busted a standup and were washed out for it! One guy got so nervous that he passed out, the other screwed it up so royally that the Flt CC and all the IP's went on a rampage against this guy and he busted his next 5 rides, and washed out of 38's.  Previously he was a strong student, so they gave him a extra ride or two, but he was shell shocked and couldn't recover...CBM 86-87l. And none of the IP's were our "Bro" they were actually not allowed to fraternize with students, even off base over a beer etc..

a different time for sure.

There still not allowed to fraternize, epcially when I went through when the DLF IP/Student/Molly shit was going down. I was meaning more in terms of in the flight room and in the jet. If you showed the willingness to learn they were usually more happy to stop what they were doing and drop some knowledge bombs and take the time to actually teach. There was a level of respect, best way I can describe it It they understood they were instructors and better pilots, but that didn’t make them a better person. They weren’t ever afraid to hook someone or sit someone down, those that struggled and didn’t show the effort to try to improve had the heat turned up and got washed out. 

We had a above average class (or so we were told) generally if you showed up with a good attitude and somewhat of a clue of what was going on things went well. I’ve heard many of these “back in the day” horror stories, I agree, if someone just can’t hack it or acts like ass kick them out, but UPT is a school to learn, jumping on someone after one mistake probably is not the best course of action  

Im guessing it’s gotten more relaxed now with shortage, I went through a few years ago when everyone was getting RIFd out. 

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 I found this page in our Class history .  It's slightly misleading in that the final number of grads includes  students who washed back into our class.  My class 87-04 CBM had 3 washbacks, so we started with 52 graduated 26 of the original class. We were told we were above average too😀 Class 87-06 was an Academy class, and it sure seemed to some folks that they treated them much better.  

IMG_0611.JPG

Edited by Vito
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For the 6-9 former mil guys who do live near a UPT base and might at least consider this, does anyone in the know have any idea what the timeframe is to start hiring for these positions?  Any idea if it is going to be civil service or contract?  I see the DynCorp posting for SPS, so I assume they are going contractor.  Same at non-ENJJPT bases?

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For the 6-9 former mil guys who do live near a UPT base and might at least consider this, does anyone in the know have any idea what the timeframe is to start hiring for these positions?  Any idea if it is going to be civil service or contract?  I see the DynCorp posting for SPS, so I assume they are going contractor.  Same at non-ENJJPT bases?

I heard Fall 2018 was the target but my info is 4 months old.

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3 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Are they planning on IP Qualing these guys at PIT or at the base they will work at?

I wouldn't be surprised if the first hires are within the 2 year local requal requirements.

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