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On 1/22/2020 at 1:54 PM, Karl Hungus said:

I turned down IDE in residence in order to separate from AD a few years ago... I can’t imagine taking the pay and QoL cut necessary to drop mil leave, move my family to cesspool Montgomery, AL for a year,...

If it is necessary to get to a military retirement... especially one where you don’t have to wait until 60 years old to collect... I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it. 
I find my retirement to be very valuable 

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re: the pecking order---

So, Delta makes a lot of money domestically, has a well run airline that tops the list for customer satisfaction, and their pilots make tons of cash in profit sharing. It's a great place to pick up trips on days off for extra pay, and so forth. What's missing in that is top-end scope. Normally, other airlines like United or American have language in their contracts that say if they own a significant share in another airline that operates in and out of the United States, their mainline pilots are entitled to fly those routes.

Delta has no such restrictions and has used the cash they've been sitting on to buy 49% stakes in foreign airlines. And then, they park their own widebodies and use those foreign airlines to take over the route. They're still banking the profit from route because of their ownership stake, but don't have to utilize their own pilots.

Delta's true widebody fleet is about 6% of their total making at or near the top payrate. AAL 10.5% UAL 12.5% SWA 0.0000% (sorry had to take a shot lol). Of course, FedEX and UPS are going to have the highest percentages because they're cargo.

I just thought that would be something to take into consideration if flying widebody international is ever your intended destination.

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20 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

If it is necessary to get to a military retirement... especially one where you don’t have to wait until 60 years old to collect... I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it. 
I find my retirement to be very valuable 

Sure.  Plenty of ways to get an AD retirement.  Some, like going to ACSC in Montgomery, aren’t at all appealing.  

Sounds like it worked out for JS.  I’m guessing the proximity to his/her family and the lack of moving made it palatable.  

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1 hour ago, joe1234 said:

re: the pecking order---

So, Delta makes a lot of money domestically, has a well run airline that tops the list for customer satisfaction, and their pilots make tons of cash in profit sharing. It's a great place to pick up trips on days off for extra pay, and so forth. What's missing in that is top-end scope. Normally, other airlines like United or American have language in their contracts that say if they own a significant share in another airline that operates in and out of the United States, their mainline pilots are entitled to fly those routes.

Delta has no such restrictions and has used the cash they've been sitting on to buy 49% stakes in foreign airlines. And then, they park their own widebodies and use those foreign airlines to take over the route. They're still banking the profit from route because of their ownership stake, but don't have to utilize their own pilots.

Delta's true widebody fleet is about 6% of their total making at or near the top payrate. AAL 10.5% UAL 12.5% SWA 0.0000% (sorry had to take a shot lol). Of course, FedEX and UPS are going to have the highest percentages because they're cargo.

I just thought that would be something to take into consideration if flying widebody international is ever your intended destination.


All true re: Delta.  In Delta’s defense, they have strong work rules in regards to manning their widebody international flying.  Routes that require 4 pilots are done with 2 CAs and 2 FOs, whereas it’s done with 1 CA and 3 FOs at others.  Creates more widebody captain positions than you’d otherwise expect from the relative lack of widebody aircraft.  Delta (management) hates this.

Management tried to include a provision in the last contract allowing it to paint the 49% owned JVs in Delta colors, with a tiny “operated by AeroMexico /Virgin /Dmitri’sVodkaAir/ etc” on the side.  If Delta could get away with it, it would outsource everything and just be a holding company and an online ticket broker.  

Everything is cyclical.  Go to an airline that lets you drive to work and hope for the best.

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1 hour ago, joe1234 said:

So, Delta makes a lot of money domestically, has a well run airline that tops the list for customer satisfaction, and their pilots make tons of cash in profit sharing. It's a great place to pick up trips on days off for extra pay, and so forth. What's missing in that is top-end scope. Normally, other airlines like United or American have language in their contracts that say if they own a significant share in another airline that operates in and out of the United States, their mainline pilots are entitled to fly those routes.

Delta has no such restrictions and has used the cash they've been sitting on to buy 49% stakes in foreign airlines. And then, they park their own widebodies and use those foreign airlines to take over the route. They're still banking the profit from route because of their ownership stake, but don't have to utilize their own pilots.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you about shortcomings in our scope, but some of this is a bit misleading.  It's important for prospective candidates to understand the numbers.   I'll also preface this with the fact that we'll likely never be the widebody airline that is UAL.  Also, when looking at the numbers, UAL has about 2k fewer pilots and AAL has roughly the same number of pilots.

Our parking of jets is mostly the 747s (which everyone is parking) and some of our ERs.  While we are plenty short on WB airframes, we're still adding 350s and 330s to the fleet.   A decent amount of our ER flying is moving up to our 330s which is a good thing.   Despite our "lack" of scope and "parking" of aircraft, I've held the 330 for 4.5 of the 6 years I've worked for Delta....yes I'm aware UAL has a 1st year guys on the 777.  We also have 1st year guys in the left seat....there is a reason for both.

 

Quote

Delta's true widebody fleet is about 6% of their total making at or near the top payrate. AAL 10.5% UAL 12.5% SWA 0.0000% (sorry had to take a shot lol). Of course, FedEX and UPS are going to have the highest percentages because they're cargo.

 

Your numbers wrt our "top rate," leaves out the fact that we don't band like UAL and AAL, so our 330/764 pilots are not included in that number.  For some reason, many at DAL are adamantly against banding our 330/764 with the 777/350.   But for reference my 330 rate at DAL is 209/211, my rate at UAL would be 219 and AAL would be 213.  Sure it's a few bucks less an hour, but it's disingenuous to leave them out of the numbers.

Having recently compiled all the data from AAL and UAL buddies, I figured I'd share.  It's tough to really nail down the UAL numbers since they band their 75/76 to their 764 fleet and neither AAL or DAL do.  But a few UAL 75/76 buddies gave me their best guess, based on the number of 764s in their fleet/trips in the bid packet (ie...not all their 75/76 pilots are always getting paid that rate), so take it for what it's worth. 

UAL ~31%, AAL ~20% and DAL ~20% (only 7-8% at the 350/777 rate).  That said we have a few more WB Captains (including 330/764) than AAL and about 50 shy of UAL.  The reason for that is we do our long haul flying with 2 CA/2 FO, while UAL/AAL mostly do 1 CA/3 FO.  Clearly they beat us big time in the WB FO department.  Another factor that helps us along is that both UAL and AAL utilize their WBs on domestic route much more than we do, so that brings down the crew ration a bit.  Having left AAL, my "crystal ball" time to WB Captain is pretty much the same at DAL and AAL.

Again, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it's important to know the true numbers, rather than the standard cockpit rhetoric.  As Karl said...go to the one that lets you drive to work.  

 

Edited by SocialD

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Don't forget that at UPS *everyone* is on the widebody pay scale and at FedEx about 69% of pilots are on widebody pay.

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On 1/24/2020 at 6:20 PM, Dapper Dan Man said:

It's complicated. 

It's important to know the background of AA. It's a four headed beast of Legacy AA, TWA, America West, and US Airways. Everyone has been screwed over in some form.

US Airways and America West merged in the early 2000s. The Nicalau Award, infamous in aviation and airline history, was extremely controversial. It said that the two pilot lists will be blended in the same relative seniority, so if you were 30% on the old list, you'd be 30% on the new list. However, US Airways was a very old airline, and AWA was a very young airline. Therefore, you'd have pilots who had been on property 5 years, being put over pilots who have been on property 20 years. As you've heard, seniority is everything. 

The unions refused to ratify the arbitration decision, and instead concentrated their hate and distrust between each other. This lasted for almost 10 years. With no ability to ratify a new collective bargaining agreement, neither union could move forward and it got nasty as each one blamed the other for their woes. For the line pilots, it mainly meant frozen pay rates and work rules for a decade. Management played off this and rode the cheap labor for years, as the airlines operated as two separate companies under one paint job.

TWA was on the brink of complete liquidation. Not a normal bankruptcy where you renegotiate debt, but at the point where the metal was going to be scrapped to satisfy the debts. Instead, AA bought them, but the pilots list was simply stapled to the bottom of the AA seniority list. One guy I talked to lost 12 years of seniority overnight. So they were pissed.

Legacy AA had something called the B Scale. In order to get a new contract, a contract was signed where for the first 5 (?) years, you were paid less than the A scale guys. No difference in equipment operated or work rules, but you'll get paid less so the pilots already on property could get paid more. "You'll be senior someday" mentality. Then came all the bankruptcies, frozen A funds (pensions pilots were banking on) and pay cuts.

The moral of the story? EVERYONE on property got screwed over in some form. Some pilots cannot get over the past.

So why do Pilots hate Doug Parker? Is it deserved? Yes and no. Keep in mind, he was CEO of America West and rode the CEO wave to the top of AA. 

Some pilots here are so bitter, they want the world to burn. They have been on the wrong side of the airline industry for 30-40 years. They've lost houses, their domiciles closed, been through multiple divorces, owe(d) child support and alimony, did not have the military, and have always had an awful relationship with management. There are no saving this pilot group, you can never make them happy. 

Then we have our contract. The 2013 contract was written to include programs that didn't exist yet. Long story short is they turned off some stuff that was made obsolete in the contract, the replacement sucked, the pilot group wanted it back, the company said OK but we can't program all the stuff in the new contract. Pilot group said we don't care, and thus everything was put on hold to re-activate programs that had been de-integrated and shut down. A scheduling mistake in 2017 solidified the non-implementation, as the pilot group got HUGE work rule changes in agreement for dropping all grievances against the non implementation of the contract. BUT management has implemented items that help them, but none that help the pilot group. 

So, now we're in my personal opinion. Should DP be fired? From a leadership point of view, he's lost most, if not every work group.  Ed Bastian and DAL have figured out labor relations. Oscar Munoz has figured out how to do it at UAL. AA seems behind the times, sticking with labor and negotiating tactics that the worst of the industry invented. They preach a "new American" but hired the same company negotiator that has been at the center point of all the awful combative labor relations (Jerry Glass.) So you have a bitter pilot group, and a management philosophy of more of the same.  So the CEO talks a good talk, but actions are pointing towards another long, nasty "same ol same ol" company culture. Nobody believes we're going to overtake UAL or DAL with Doug in charge. Motivation isn't low, it's more like do your job and go home. There's no real reason to go the extra mile, or go above and beyond. And it seems like management is OK with that. 

So again, should DP be fired? Probably, but only if we can guarantee his replacement is better. And then the new guy needs to clean house of the middle management that still operates like it's in the early 90s. 

Overall, I do like it here. They've treated me well. I live in base, bid reserve, and worked 5 days this month, for 76 hours of pay. I've been on property for 2 years and can hold Captain later this year. But I do union work in Contract Compliance and new hire mentor, so I see a lot of the management-first solutions often, especially in Crew Scheduling.

Edited by xaarman
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It's complicated. 
It's important to know the background of AA. It's a four headed beast of Legacy AA, TWA, America West, and US Airways. Everyone has been screwed over in some form.
US Airways and America West merged in the early 2000s. The Nicalau Award, infamous in aviation and airline history, was extremely controversial. It said that the two pilot lists will be blended in the same relative seniority, so if you were 30% on the old list, you'd be 30% on the new list. However, US Airways was a very old airline, and AWA was a very young airline. Therefore, you'd have pilots who had been on property 5 years, being put over pilots who have been on property 20 years. As you've heard, seniority is everything. 
The unions refused to ratify the arbitration decision, and instead concentrated their hate and distrust between each other. This lasted for almost 10 years. With no ability to ratify a new collective bargaining agreement, neither union could move forward and it got nasty as each one blamed the other for their woes. For the line pilots, it mainly meant frozen pay rates and work rules for a decade. Management played off this and rode the cheap labor for years, as the airlines operated as two separate companies under one paint job.
TWA was on the brink of complete liquidation. Not a normal bankruptcy where you renegotiate debt, but at the point where the metal was going to be scrapped to satisfy the debts. Instead, AA bought them, but the pilots list was simply stapled to the bottom of the AA seniority list. One guy I talked to lost 12 years of seniority overnight. So they were pissed.
Legacy AA had something called the B Scale. In order to get a new contract, a contract was signed where for the first 5 (?) years, you were paid less than the A scale guys. No difference in equipment operated or work rules, but you'll get paid less so the pilots already on property could get paid more. "You'll be senior someday" mentality. Then came all the bankruptcies, frozen A funds (pensions pilots were banking on) and pay cuts.
The moral of the story? EVERYONE on property got screwed over in some form. Some pilots cannot get over the past.
So why do Pilots hate Doug Parker? Is it deserved? Yes and no. Keep in mind, he was CEO of America West and rode the CEO wave to the top of AA. 
Some pilots here are so bitter, they want the world to burn. They have been on the wrong side of the airline industry for 30-40 years. They've lost houses, their domiciles closed, been through multiple divorces, owe(d) child support and alimony, and have always had an awful relationship with management. There are no saving this pilot group, you can never make them happy. 
Then we have our contract. The 2013 contract was written to include programs that didn't exist yet. Long story short is they turned off some stuff that was made obsolete in the contract, the replacement sucked, the pilot group wanted it back, the company said OK but we can't program all the stuff in the new contract. Pilot group said we don't care, and thus everything was put on hold to re-activate programs that had been de-integrated and shut down. A scheduling mistake in 2017 solidified the non-implementation, as the pilot group got HUGE work rule changes in agreement for dropping all grievances against the non implementation of the contract. BUT management has implemented items that help them, but none that help the pilot group. 
So, now we're in my personal opinion. Should DP be fired? From a leadership point of view, he's lost most, if not every work group.  Ed Bastian and DAL have figured out labor relations. Oscar Munoz has figured out how to do it at UAL. AA seems behind the times, sticking with labor and negotiating tactics that the worst of the industry invented. They preach a "new American" but hired the same company negotiator that has been at the center point of all the awful combative labor relations (Jerry Glass.) So you have a bitter pilot group, and a management philosophy of more of the same.  So the CEO talks a good talk, but actions are pointing towards another long, nasty "same ol same ol" company culture. Nobody believes we're going to overtake UAL or DAL with Doug in charge. Motivation isn't low, it's more like do your job and go home. There's no real reason to go the extra mile, or go above and beyond. And it seems like management is OK with that. 
So again, should DP be fired? Probably, but only if we can guarantee his replacement is better. And then the new guy needs to clean house of the middle management that still operates like it's in the early 90s. 
Overall, I do like it here. They've treated me well. I live in base, bid reserve, and worked 5 days this month, for 76 hours of pay. I've been on property for 2 years and can hold Captain later this year. But I do union work in Contract Compliance and new hire mentor, so I see a lot of the management-first solutions often, especially in Crew Scheduling.
As someone that just started, thanks. I could see the animosity, ambivalence, and hopefulness and struggled to understand the whys from each side. This is a great 10k foot summary. Overall I'm excited to be at AA but coming from AD my opinion is probably probably skewed.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Baseops Network mobile app

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2 hours ago, baileynme said:

As someone that just started, thanks. I could see the animosity, ambivalence, and hopefulness and struggled to understand the whys from each side. This is a great 10k foot summary. Overall I'm excited to be at AA but coming from AD my opinion is probably probably skewed.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Baseops Network mobile app
 

I was worried about going on a tangent and not answering the question, but after everything I posted, I still do enjoy working here. It is worlds better than Active Duty. I have more time than I know what to do with. And you (not you personally) can either get really spun up about the drama, or you can completely ignore when the door shuts and you drive home. That's the best part about this job. 

The new pilots are motivated and excited for change. The old pilots are retiring in droves. We have 676 pilots retiring in 2020 and that doesn't include anyone who goes early. It only goes up from there. I would have nowhere near the seniority gain at UAL/DAL - I can spend 20 years as a WB CA here at AA. If you live local, our reserve system is the best in the business. Miami flying is the best in the system. Finally, I firmly believe this airline will look completely different in 5 years, much more in 10, 20 or 30 years.

Send me a PM if you want, I'm happy to help with any questions you may have along the way.

Edited by xaarman

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46 minutes ago, xaarman said:

Miami flying is the best in the system.

Care to elaborate? Flying for AA there eventually is my goal, but I have heard negative things about the flying there.

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What negative things have you heard? It's Caribbean island hopping.

 

 

 

 

Edited by xaarman

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2 hours ago, xaarman said:

Finally, I firmly believe this airline will look completely different in 5 years, much more in 10, 20 or 30 years.

Just curious if you wouldn’t mind elaborating on your optimism for the company for the rest of us?

This article paints a scary picture of AA’s future:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4319350-american-airlines-is-in-perpetual-state-of-uncontrolled-descent

Not trying to be a naysayer...I want AA to succeed. It’s one of my top picks due to domicile locations where family lives. Just get nervous when I read articles that paint a dark sky...

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3 hours ago, xaarman said:

Miami flying is the best in the system. 

As with many things "airline", beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  

 

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2 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

Just curious if you wouldn’t mind elaborating on your optimism for the company for the rest of us?

Go to APC and read posts from the United forum around 2012-2014.  Jeff Smisek in his prime.  Doom and gloom, sky is falling, bankruptcy right around the corner, liquidation inevitable, unrecoverable death spiral.  Now, United is an industry darling.  What changed?  A new management team.

If APC had existed, you’d read the same from a theoretical Delta forum in the mid-2000s.

The industry is cyclical.  A management change at AA could/will make a huge difference.  Some think that change will happen sooner than later.  A Richard Anderson or Glen Hauenstein type hire could turn AA into a monster.  Youngest fleet of the majors and cheap hubs in areas of massive growth.  Or, Doug Parker could run AA into bankruptcy.

No matter where you end up, it will be far better than Active Duty.  That place is a toxic cesspool.  

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18 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

Just curious if you wouldn’t mind elaborating on your optimism for the company for the rest of us?

This article paints a scary picture of AA’s future:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4319350-american-airlines-is-in-perpetual-state-of-uncontrolled-descent

Not trying to be a naysayer...I want AA to succeed. It’s one of my top picks due to domicile locations where family lives. Just get nervous when I read articles that paint a dark sky...

So there's the public part of an airline, and then there's flying for an airline. For example, SWA is a great company, but the flying does not appeal to me anymore. I'd been happy to get hired there coming out of the military (it was one of my top 3) but now that I'm here, I'm happy I'm not in a 737 flying domestic (incl Mexico and Hawaii) for the next 30 years. This is an example of the latter, nothing in this article affects my daily life. Sure we made less than UAL/DAL, but that's for the MBAs to figure out. And surprisingly, we still made 2.9 BILLION dollars this year. When our summer operation turned into a mess, the 737 MAX was grounded, and our stock price hit a new low, we pay a billion dollars in interest on our debt... we still made 2.9 billion. 

Now, you don't see Labor coming to the defense of management. We're in negotiations. Headlines are probably going to get worse before they get better. Especially with our past. But AA, the world's biggest airline, isn't going anywhere anytime soon. 

 

17 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

As with many things "airline", beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  

There's always someone at Hickam who wishes they were at Minot. 

My friends Miami IOE sequence has layovers in St Kitts and Medellin. Another friend exclusively bids Aruba layovers.

 

16 hours ago, Karl Hungus said:

Go to APC and read posts from the United forum around 2012-2014.  Jeff Smisek in his prime.  Doom and gloom, sky is falling, bankruptcy right around the corner, liquidation inevitable, unrecoverable death spiral.  Now, United is an industry darling.  What changed?  A new management team.

If APC had existed, you’d read the same from a theoretical Delta forum in the mid-2000s.

The industry is cyclical.  A management change at AA could/will make a huge difference.  Some think that change will happen sooner than later.  A Richard Anderson or Glen Hauenstein type hire could turn AA into a monster.  Youngest fleet of the majors and cheap hubs in areas of massive growth.  Or, Doug Parker could run AA into bankruptcy.

No matter where you end up, it will be far better than Active Duty.  That place is a toxic cesspool.  

What he said, bolded for emphasis. I also wouldn't mind seeing Alan Mullaly. 

But I do think AA is going to get worse before it gets better. PS: I'm posting this from my couch while on Reserve 🤷‍♂️

Edited by xaarman
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9 hours ago, Karl Hungus said:

If APC had existed, you’d read the same from a theoretical Delta forum in the mid-2000s. 

APC started in early '05.

If anyone wants to do any archaeology and learn more about their airline's past, the "new" FlightInfo.com forums go back to about 2001.  If you think APC is a monkeycrap fight, go check out ol' Flightinfo's archives!

Edited by Hacker
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3 hours ago, Hacker said:

APC started in early '05.

If anyone wants to do any archaeology and learn more about their airline's past, the "new" FlightInfo.com forums go back to about 2001.  If you think APC is a monkeycrap fight, go check out ol' Flightinfo's archives!

I don't mind the monkey business at APC, but man, I can't deal with threads that are 100,000 pages long.

Edited by Homestar

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18 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

As with many things "airline", beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  

 

BeERholder Huggy...the Beerholder!

But it's true.  I flew with a Captain on the 737 that absolutely hated flying WB international.  Hated it so much that he bid back to the right seat of the 737 as soon as he could.  Sat there until he could hold the left seat of the 737.  Having flown the 737 and now WB international, I can't imagine flying our domestic system right now.  Life is just so damn good on the 330.  That's the great thing about this job, there is a little bit of everything for everyone.  To each their own.  

 

8 hours ago, Hacker said:

APC started in early '05.

If anyone wants to do any archaeology and learn more about their airline's past, the "new" FlightInfo.com forums go back to about 2001.  If you think APC is a monkeycrap fight, go check out ol' Flightinfo's archives!

Oh man, flightinfo.  I wonder what ever happened to General Lee... 

 

 

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 Xaarman what’s your opinion on AA hiring in the next few years?  I’ve seen charts projecting their hiring to continue for another 3-4 years, but would like your perspective.

specifically curious about the early 2023 timeframe...😬

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 Xaarman what’s your opinion on AA hiring in the next few years?  I’ve seen charts projecting their hiring to continue for another 3-4 years, but would like your perspective.
specifically curious about the early 2023 timeframe...
We are losing over 6,000 pilots due to mandatory retirements over the next 7-8 years. Barring some sort of devastating economic recession, hiring will continue full-steam ahead for at least a decade.
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39 minutes ago, Gazmo said:

Barring some sort of devastating economic recession...

Now you've done it. Let's revisit this post in a year.

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 Xaarman what’s your opinion on AA hiring in the next few years?  I’ve seen charts projecting their hiring to continue for another 3-4 years, but would like your perspective.
specifically curious about the early 2023 timeframe...
Airline Pilot Central has pretty accurate numbers. 2023 you'll be catching the the wave just as it's about to crest. The next few years after will see 900+.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Baseops Network mobile app

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2 hours ago, baileynme said:

Airline Pilot Central has pretty accurate numbers. 2023 you'll be catching the the wave just as it's about to crest. The next few years after will see 900+.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Baseops Network mobile app
 

For those of us that will be able to apply right around the time of that "crest" is that going to be a tough time to get in or about the same?

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I'm pretty sure AA will be hiring anyone with a pulse for the next 6-9 years, so as long as you're still breathing and have managed to keep your felony count to <2, you'll be fine.

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