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4 hours ago, SocialD said:

I'm just hoping I'm senior enough to bid one of those 55 hour no fly lines they'll be offering in May or June. 

Boom! This would be a Willy Wonka Ticket during this situation, especially if all were kept on board with benefits and it truly would be cheaper in the short term 6-9, 12 months (whatever the gonculator says) especially with interest free loan injections vs cutting and then retraining. I am unaware of the furlough criteria protections at specific airlines, but others on their APC forums have mentioned they have a lot of monetary penalties associated with this. My company not so much, it’s flying rubber dog crap out of Hong Kong. Limited dog crap, limited pilots, but thankfully there is a plethora of dog crap for the foreseeable future. I hope everyone is senior enough to attain what they want/need (positive plug).

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30 minutes ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

I am unaware of the furlough criteria protections at specific airlines, but others on their APC forums have mentioned they have a lot of monetary penalties associated with this. My company not so much, it’s flying rubber dog crap out of Hong Kong. Limited dog crap, limited pilots, but thankfully there is a plethora of dog crap for the foreseeable future. I hope everyone is senior enough to attain what they want/need (positive plug).

 

Ya supposedly we have furlough protections for everyone on the at the signing of our last contract.  However, I'm not sure it's worth the paper it's written on in times like this.  If they need to furlough, they're furlough what they need.  We supposedly get 90 days notice and 1 month pay per year of service up to 6.  That said, I don't think we're really there yet...especially if they think this will dry up in the next 2-4 months.  We've been fairly understaffed in a lot of categories and running guys at high ALVs (80+) even in the winter.  Dropping them down to a more normal ALV 70ish will provide lots of relief in itself.  Throw in some SILs and maybe some guys jumping on orders and that will go a long way. Won't totally solve the issue but doesn't hurt.  The 300 number referenced in Huggy's post likely includes 120 or so regional jets.

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12 minutes ago, joe1234 said:

Ugh, the last thing I would want to do when I'm 63 is be forced to work myself to the bone during a global pandemic that's deadly to older people because I was too greedy to rebalance my portfolio more conservatively.

Well, you will be in a better position using the recommended strategy by most consultants and just plane common sense based on previous markets. Unfortunately we add yet another debacle which proves this investment strategy in an extreme environment. 

Very true regarding - none of us want to work ourselves to the bone during our final years, let alone now. Studies have shown that those who retire at 60 vs 65 live quite a bit longer in our business (Cargo studies based on some of the extreme schedules).

Retiring early from any walk of life: It is highly recommended to have some kind of hobby to keep your mind busy; otherwise, you decline rapidly. 5 folks I know have passed within 5 years of retiring from the military. Coincidence maybe, but I will admit you lose your mission sense when you leave after many years of service and I myself had to refocus and create another mental game of that drive on attitude using my family, friends and contributor to our great nations economy.

Regardless of the minutia and suck you all go thru, you are part of a small and very special group of warriors which no one (aside from your immediate family who rides the suck with you) will understand not having been a part of it.

Great respect for you all in the military, law enforcement, Fire Fighters, and First Responders who maintain the highest standards to keep our nation from going full tilt. I will always remember it has been an voluntary force for many decades and it is a calling! My apologies for sliding off the tracks there.

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13 hours ago, JBueno said:

Not trying to add to the gloom, but contracts can go out the window in bankruptcy. Just want folks to be prepared.
 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bankruptcy-judge-throws-out-amr-pilots-contract/#

 

Don't necessarily disagree with you, but it's going to be A LOT harder sell when your management team was doing 12B in stock buyback and making 6+B leading up to this temporary event.  

 

 

 

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Well boys, it was fun while it lasted; just over a year for me. Just enough to get a taste of the "good life". You really can't make this shit up, can you? It's right out of a movie. Words cannot describe how happy I've been since I landed my first airline job. I know a lot of you felt the same. Well, last week before the shit really hit the fan, I had enough intuition to start procuring my full-time job back at the unit because I just knew this wasn't going to go well. Hopefully the odds (and my experience) are in my favor, but it'll be interesting to see what the future holds since I've showed my cards. I've walked around the house all weekend like a zombie thinking "f#ck my life", but I have to push forward. I hope everyone in the same situation the best. I really don't know what else to say.

 

 

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On 3/14/2020 at 11:37 AM, AirGuardianC141747 said:


Very true regarding - none of us want to work ourselves to the bone during our final years, let alone now. Studies have shown that those who retire at 60 vs 65 live quite a bit longer in our business (Cargo studies based on some of the extreme schedules).

 

 

I went at 59.  How much time does that buy me?

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3 hours ago, Springer said:

I went at 59.  How much time does that buy me?

I envy you, I hope to leave at 60 myself for personal reasons of health, financial health and the ability to focus on family, hobbies and travel (ground travel) while I can still hike around and not stumble around significantly. I stumble now.

I was wrong not to state there is another study that shows pilots live longer than the general population as well and yet other data indicating we all are the same regardless of occupation.

I can get on board that genes play a big role and pilots of today tend to be much more fitness conscious and have changed their eating/drinking habits these past several decades compared to the aforementioned studies form 1992 (pass earlier) and 1996 (live longer) therefore live longer.

Couple of FedEx guys who jumped with us last year gave me the following info which bodes well in your case “Springer.” I still have this in my notes:

Retire 60 - Live an average of 18 years after retirement = 78

Retire 65 - Live an average of 8 years after retirement = 73

I think you’ll live longer as long as you remain engaged in some form of mindful activity. My father passed at 78 and he was at the pinnacle of specialties as a doctor when he retired and created other challenges to keep his cognitive skills sharp as a tac, but cancer attacks the best of us. 3 times in his case, true fighter!

My CPAP and Colonoscopies barring other anomalies will increase my longevity whatever that might be.

Dang, I envy your 59 departure. Going to be tuff walking away from this gig not necessarily the monetary value, but the pond hopping adventures I get myself into aside from the current fiasco going on.

Edited by AirGuardianC141747
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4 hours ago, Gazmo said:

Well, last week before the shit really hit the fan, I had enough intuition to start procuring my full-time job back at the unit because I just knew this wasn't going to go well. Hopefully the odds (and my experience) are in my favor, but it'll be interesting to see what the future holds since I've showed my cards. 

I hope you land rubber side down and sit-out this fiasco comfortably. Great to hear you didn’t cut ties with your unit. Always good to have options which is a gem. May you land safely and content, at least for now while this thing burns up, down and eventually out...

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5 hours ago, Gazmo said:

I really don't know what else to say.

 

I guess I would say calm down, pour a scotch and smoke a lucky.  I certainly don't blame people for jumping on orders as you worry about providing for the family.  Guys going on orders will help the situation out a bit.  Thankfully, the airlines are wisely waiving the 5 year USERRA clock...hopefully this is expanded.  None of us should be anywhere close to pulling up the floor boards to keep the fire going. 

 

At DAL, we've been running at such high ALVs, that simply dropping us down to the bottom of the ALV window will help ease off furloughs.  We still have lots of training going on which will keep instructors in the sims (requiring more guys on the line and on the list).  In the next year or two we'll retire over 1300-1800 pilots which only helps.  It may be a bumpy road for a bit, but we may come out of this a little better off than many are thinking right now.  As we speak, AAL just rolled out a pretty generous voluntary leave package (even continue to get paid to age 65 while essentially retire early) which will be helpful as well.  DAL is offering 55 hour no fly lines (SILs), which pays me about the same as a month of orders would as a 18 yr LTC.  I hope I'm actually senior enough to get a SIL.

 

Ohio (and many others) just shut down all bars and restaurants, the fed cut the rate of 0 and fired up the quantitative easing machine.  Trump just invoked the Stafford act which means we may all be headed to a federally mandated home quarantine....that's bad for everyone (other than killing the virus lol), so we're all in this mess together.  If it comes down to it and we do start to furlough, I think I'll be ok with about 4,800 junior to me.  That said, if I have the option to go on orders and it will save a junior guy from furlough, then I'll probably jump to mloa, even if its just 4ish months of orders.  I've run the number and as an O-5, just with all the AFTPs/UTAs/AT, I'll be sitting at ~50k gross.  Add in 4 months of orders and I'm at 100k.  It's not anyway what I'm making now,  but it's way more than I really need to live comfortably and still enjoy my life.  Thankfully I paid cash for my house and all my toys!  Anyway, I'd have a tough time looking a fellow pilot in the eye and saying sorry bro, I can't take that pay cut as he gets kicked to the street.  Were all in this together.  

 

This is a great lesson in not being a complete dick about losing pay to come out to the gaurd (standing by for the people's elbow from Hindsight2020😁).  Also a lesson in not leaving your mil gig right away and continuing to promote if able. I haven't run the numbers (mentioned above) for O-4, but I'm certainly glad I finished ACSC as the extra pay will only be helpful in times like this.  Speaking of, time to get ready for a day at the Guard.  Supposed to double turn...we'll see if we even turn a wheel today.  

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5 hours ago, torqued said:

Trump is going to shut it all down this week.

Landed JFK today (Sunday 4 PM) and as we taxied to the cargo ramp I counted 11 Delta Heavies (767, A330, 777) clustered amongst ground vehicles (ice trucks, etc.) behind the terminal which had another actually 4 Delta Heavies attached to it. Are these 11 aircraft backup maintenance aircraft, overflows or “parked”???

Our Tahoe driver drove thru part of NYC to the Holland Tunnel since it was faster he said. We never go thru the City in the evenings due to traffic. We listened to the Mayor speech live as he indicated NYC schools are closed officially and first plan is to evaluate reopening end of April and be prepared to call the 2019-2020 school year over. Driver was right, it was quicker up to Dover, DE barely any traffic therefore constant fast movement... Granted, it was Sunday but very weird.

 

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Good insight. Thanks. Ironically I hadn't seen the email from APA about the AAL LOA last night before I wrote that. I am a little less anxious about the future now there seems to be some relief, at least short term. I just hope things don't get worse.

As far as 55 hr SIL's; I haven't read through our contract yet, but what's the general policy for being on a paid leave of absence and doing mil duty? I am assuming inactive duty is as any other. What about a deployment during your paid leave? You would have to convert that to a mil leave?

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On 3/13/2020 at 9:57 PM, nunya said:

"Offering early retirements" means nothing in modern airlines. With no A plan at most carriers (and those with A plans aren't hurting right now), you walk away with nothing extra if you leave at age 61 or 64+364.

AA just offered early outs for 50/hrs a month pay. 

Voluntary Permanent LoA, age 62+ paid 50 hours until age 65, retain all benefits and 401k, etc as above, remaining sick deposited into HSA.

 

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Landed JFK today (Sunday 4 PM) and as we taxied to the cargo ramp I counted 11 Delta Heavies (767, A330, 777) clustered amongst ground vehicles (ice trucks, etc.) behind the terminal which had another actually 4 Delta Heavies attached to it. Are these 11 aircraft backup maintenance aircraft, overflows or “parked”???
Our Tahoe driver drove thru part of NYC to the Holland Tunnel since it was faster he said. We never go thru the City in the evenings due to traffic. We listened to the Mayor speech live as he indicated NYC schools are closed officially and first plan is to evaluate reopening end of April and be prepared to call the 2019-2020 school year over. Driver was right, it was quicker up to Dover, DE barely any traffic therefore constant fast movement... Granted, it was Sunday but very weird.
 

Sounds like a special kind of hell having to endure a car service JFK-DOV


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13 minutes ago, pilot said:

AA just offered early outs for 50/hrs a month pay. 

Voluntary Permanent LoA, age 62+ paid 50 hours until age 65, retain all benefits and 401k, etc as above, remaining sick deposited into HSA.

 

Yep. Created out of thin air.  Looks like a good job by APA.  

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AA just offered early outs for 50/hrs a month pay. 

Voluntary Permanent LoA, age 62+ paid 50 hours until age 65, retain all benefits and 401k, etc as above, remaining sick deposited into HSA.
 


Seems like that would be a pretty good deal for most guys who lived mostly within their means, and/or have only one wife on the record.
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2 hours ago, so.it.goes said:

 


Seems like that would be a pretty good deal for most guys who lived mostly within their means, and/or have only one wife on the record.

 

It’d be crazy not to take this deal, unless you’re on wife #2+ and/or have been financially retarded in the past.  

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It’d be crazy not to take this deal, unless you’re on wife #2+ and/or have been financially retarded in the past.  

You’d have to be nuts not to. Over $200k a year (on group 4 Capt) to retire early. I’d be calling today to get signed up.


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You’d have to be nuts not to. Over $200k a year (on group 4 Capt) to retire early. I’d be calling today to get signed up.


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You would "think" that, but these are pilots making $350k+ a year to work how much to begin with? We shall see. It would be real nice to know how many pilots the company needs to take these deals or even better; how many at each base in each piece of equipment. Obviously in the short-term, it helps the company if more senior people take this deal. Higher salaries means more payrole savings. Long term, the Jr guys under 20% who would be on the hitlist for furlough would rather be at 55 hrs of pay than 0. I can "live" off 55 hrs 2nd year Airbus pay, especially with guard income, but going to 0 wouldn't do me very well.
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You're talking about a group of guys that were told their entire career that they didn't need to save their own cash for retirement because their pensions were a sure thing...we all know how that worked out for many of them.  A lot of them have been through the B-scale, a furlough or two, a bankruptcy and more black swans events than they can count.  They all know that the company can wipe their ass with this agreement should they go back into bankruptcy or otherwise become insolvent.  My guess is many of the old timers will be very wary of such an agreement.  I know many of the old timers on the DAL boards are essentially scoffing it because they know it can be taken away with the stroke of a pen.  Not saying you won't have some takers, but I don't think it's will be as slam dunk as some think.

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