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1,000 Retired Pilots Can Be Recalled to Active Duty

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Aside from all the financials... There's a reason people are battling right at year twenty. So far, the Air Force has been unable to overcome this reasons. Why would someone who got out due to the BS, started another career, and planted the family in their permanent town want to come back?

Seriously... People can already run these numbers before they retire. Why would coming back on AD years later be any more appealing than just staying?

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3 hours ago, matmacwc said:

Oh yeah, I bet they recall 12 pilots.

I'm going to say you're wrong on this one, matmacwc.  

Certainly not 1000... but I think it might get some traction with those retired for under 12 months.  

 

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

Why would someone who got out due to the BS,...

Because not everyone retired because of the BS.  

 

Why would coming back on AD years later be any more appealing than just staying?

Because... for those that just retired and went to the airlines recently... they now  have a seniority number that is accruing longevity.

Edited by HuggyU2
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13 hours ago, Hunter Rose said:

If a Lt Col retires at 20 years and gets a civilian job at $187K +$52K pension he would absolutely be way ahead.

Got links to any jobs that are going to pay me $187K year one?  if so, send them my way!

Again, I'm not arguing you don't do better in the long run if a Lt Col retires at 20 and works for the airlines for 23 years.  I'm just pointing out that people often don't factor in realistic dollar values when making the decision.  Folks always seem to undervalue the actual value of military pay/pension increases and disregard the fact that for the first year in the airlines you're losing about $80K in salary.

I think of it as calculating a break-even point much like if you were doing a mortgage refinance.  In reality it's about 3-5 years in the airlines before you've accounted for the lost income/pension increases and start being better off in pure dollar terms.  

Granted this completely disregards QoL differences.  Just offering s different perspective.  

 

 

Continuing as a LtCol past 20 years in AD? Pass. 

The QoL increase as an AD quitter has far exceeded the bonus. We all make choices, and mine was the Guard.

 

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Are they strictly talking retirees or separated pilots, too?  This could be a really attractive option to dudes who get a line number and are within X years of 20 yrs TAFMS, and with it the AD pension. 

Lets say a dude separates and accrues 16 years TAFMS un the Guard. Maybe they get hired by an airline, finish probation (or not) and volunteer to go back on AD for 4 years to finish up. They’re stupid to limit the target audience to retirees only. 

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They already have the sabbatical option... which incurs an 3:2 adsc. Not sure how many people took it.

Also they may not want to take separated folks since that would only encourage more people to get out early to seek airline jobs...

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26 minutes ago, icohftb said:

encourage more people to get out early to seek airline jobs...

I don't think they have much of a choice.  I'll bet Huggy a beer it is under 50 people, my family lives in Rancho Murietta near Sac. so I'm good for it when the day comes I'm visiting them...(if you stayed in the area)

Edited by matmacwc
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2 hours ago, icohftb said:

They already have the sabbatical option... which incurs an 3:2 adsc. Not sure how many people took it.

Also they may not want to take separated folks since that would only encourage more people to get out early to seek airline jobs...

Probably not many rated people. We can't even release people from my community to do "high-priority" staff jobs or other gigs (like the financial leadership thing). Can't imagine they'll release you to not fill a billet for three years.

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On 5/26/2018 at 2:17 PM, matmacwc said:

 I'll bet Huggy a beer it is under 50 people,..

I'll take that bet:  even if I lose, I win since I get to drink beer with another aviator I haven't met.  

I'm an hour from Rancho Murrieta.  

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On 5/25/2018 at 11:17 PM, HuggyU2 said:

Because... for those that just retired and went to the airlines recently... they now  have a seniority number that is accruing longevity.

I'm not sure that's correct.  That was one of the big spears thrown at the original version: no USERRA protection, and I'm not reading a substantial change to that position with the current iteration.  However, I worked alongside quite a few furloughees in the past decade, and their airlines were willing to play ball and let them defer recall to stay and finish 20, and then return well after their 5y clock had long expired. So who knows?

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On 5/31/2018 at 5:24 AM, BFM this said:

I'm not sure that's correct.  That was one of the big spears thrown at the original version: no USERRA protection, 

I was not aware of this.  However, I do not understand how there is no USERRA protection.  Whether you volunteer or not does not affect your USERRA rights.  

Not sure which version you mean by "the original version":  I took the VRRAD from 2010-2014, and I had USERRA protection.  

In any case, it doesn't matter for me now that I've looked at the numbers.  While I was pleased to see that going for a two-year hitch would increase my retiree pay over $1,000/month, I'm not sure I'd live long enough to make up the difference in the overall pay cut.  It is just huge.  Massive.  At least I can now justify some additional aviation activities I want to get involved in, since I'll still come out way ahead.

In addition to losing my retiree pay, it would probably hamper some of the additional income I'm making at my other part time jobs.  

I still envision a number of scenarios where this VRRAD might appeal to recently-retired pilots.

That said... will there be at least 50 people that see it as enticing?  I know of one.  However, I may be so far off that I'll be buying matmacwc multiple rounds.  

 

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29 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

I was not aware of this.  However, I do not understand how there is no USERRA protection.  Whether you volunteer or not does not affect your USERRA rights.  

Not sure which version you mean by "the original version":  I took the VRRAD from 2010-2014, and I had USERRA protection.  

Huggy, were those orders exempt from your 5 year USERRA clock?  My last two deployments (TSP...ie NOT contingency orders), we got to pick between the blue pill or red pill.  Blue pill = USERRA exemption, but no early retirement credit.  Red pill = NOT USERRA exempt, but you get early retirement credit.  No worries though, there is a bill being proposed to change the blue pill to allow for early retirement credit, which they've been saying for the 4 years.  So...checks in the mail!  

 

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13 hours ago, SocialD said:

Huggy, were those orders exempt from your 5 year USERRA clock? 

My recollection is that they weren't... but some people that had them were going to try to manipulate the orders to make them so.  I don't know if they succeeded.  

In my case, I had no need for an exemption from the 5 year clock, so I never paid attention to that aspect.  

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 3:09 PM, ViperStud said:

Are they strictly talking retirees or separated pilots, too?  This could be a really attractive option to dudes who get a line number and are within X years of 20 yrs TAFMS, and with it the AD pension. 

Lets say a dude separates and accrues 16 years TAFMS un the Guard. Maybe they get hired by an airline, finish probation (or not) and volunteer to go back on AD for 4 years to finish up. They’re stupid to limit the target audience to retirees only. 

This is strictly for those who retired with a regular (i.e. "Active Duty") retirement, whether that be from 20 years of RegAF service, a combination of RegAF and AGR service, or even bums who cobble together an active duty retirement.  If you didn't retire or you retired from the ARC with a "reserve retirement", you're not eligible.

As far as the USERRA information, this is straight from the AFPC VRRAD website:

Quote

Participation in VRRAD does not incur any additional active-duty service commitment beyond the length of the EAD orders. Service under Title 10, USC § 688, is exempt from the five-year window of statutorily protected re-employment rights, meaning participating officers’ rights are protected and this period of service does not count toward their five years of USERRA protection

.

In my case, I'm a non-flying GS-13 working for the Gov't with a regular retirement.  No matter what, I need to work b/c it's impossible to live in my area on $65K/year, but my GS job kind of blows...  Returning to active duty will basically pay me about what I bring home now (retirement and GS-13 pay), but with better QoL, so I'm applying for this.  In addition, if I keep my GS job (which I will), I can sell back Mil Leave days each year (15 of them) and if I use them in conjunction with a holiday (10 federal holidays), I'll actually wind up with 25 paid days or 5 weeks each year of GS-13 pay, so that actually will put me ahead of what I make now.  And, as with the airlines, my seniority (and more importantly WGI's (step increases) will continue).

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4 hours ago, Loach said:

This is strictly for those who retired with a regular (i.e. "Active Duty") retirement, whether that be from 20 years of RegAF service, a combination of RegAF and AGR service, or even bums who cobble together an active duty retirement.  If you didn't retire or you retired from the ARC with a "reserve retirement", you're not eligible.

As far as the USERRA information, this is straight from the AFPC VRRAD website:

.

In my case, I'm a non-flying GS-13 working for the Gov't with a regular retirement.  No matter what, I need to work b/c it's impossible to live in my area on $65K/year, but my GS job kind of blows...  Returning to active duty will basically pay me about what I bring home now (retirement and GS-13 pay), but with better QoL, so I'm applying for this.  In addition, if I keep my GS job (which I will), I can sell back Mil Leave days each year (15 of them) and if I use them in conjunction with a holiday (10 federal holidays), I'll actually wind up with 25 paid days or 5 weeks each year of GS-13 pay, so that actually will put me ahead of what I make now.  And, as with the airlines, my seniority (and more importantly WGI's (step increases) will continue).

How is it you are burning your mil leave?  We have many GS-13s in Userra right now serving as AGRs. As of 1 Jan 2017, we were told that the use of the 120 hrs of mil leave is no longer allowed each year, so our AGRs lost the ability (which had been standard up to that point) to earn a few weeks of GS pay each year by filling out time cards with LM. That’s all been taken away as of last year. 

 

What state are you in if you don’t mind my asking?

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How is it you are burning your mil leave?  We have many GS-13s in Userra right now serving as AGRs. As of 1 Jan 2017, we were told that the use of the 120 hrs of mil leave is no longer allowed each year, so our AGRs lost the ability (which had been standard up to that point) to earn a few weeks of GS pay each year by filling out time cards with LM. That’s all been taken away as of last year. 
 
What state are you in if you don’t mind my asking?
I believe this is only the case with ART's and AGR's. Not GS's getting recalled to AD. They basically put an end to people working the system in the NG/ANG.
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On 5/26/2018 at 2:09 PM, ViperStud said:

Are they strictly talking retirees or separated pilots, too?  This could be a really attractive option to dudes who get a line number and are within X years of 20 yrs TAFMS, and with it the AD pension. 

Lets say a dude separates and accrues 16 years TAFMS un the Guard. Maybe they get hired by an airline, finish probation (or not) and volunteer to go back on AD for 4 years to finish up. They’re stupid to limit the target audience to retirees only. 

I know a dude who volunteered to come back (he's probably on here).  He was twice passed over for Lt Col and took the 15 year retirement as a Major.  He's been flying for the airlines for around 4 years now.  He volunteered to come back for a 3 year tour and AFPC's response was "we're only taking pilots who retired at 20 years at this time".  LOL.  Personally, I think they did him a favor.  

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23 hours ago, ARAMP1 said:

I know a dude who volunteered to come back (he's probably on here).  He was twice passed over for Lt Col and took the 15 year retirement as a Major.  He's been flying for the airlines for around 4 years now.  He volunteered to come back for a 3 year tour and AFPC's response was "we're only taking pilots who retired at 20 years at this time".  LOL.  Personally, I think they did him a favor.  

Sounds about right. That's the kind of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place.

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