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Thunderbird F-16 flips at KDAY

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On 6/23/2017 at 9:20 PM, HuggyU2 said:

The T-X jet is a long way from selection. Many, many years  

It would not surprise me, however, if it became the next Thunderbird jet. 

BTW, if any of you are at the Dayton show, let us know how the T-50 demo looks. I'm very intrigued. 

I was there. The T-50 demo was dammed impressive. I was amazed at the acceleration and climb capability, but the slow-speed handling was unreal.

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On 6/24/2017 at 10:19 AM, Motofalcon said:

Disclaimer: 100% speculation, we'll see what the SIB/AIB says in 6.9 months...

There is no way a "wind gust" would flip a viper all the way onto its back during taxi unless it's a damn hurricane. Seriously, to lift the entire fuselage/engine up and over the wing?? Come on. Hell, a gust strong enough just to put it up on a single main and wingtip would be *hopefully* something the wx guys could forecast and would be well outside the normal limits and therefore a wx cnx. Now, a strong wind gust during landing, which pushed the mighty mighty off the runway and THEN it flipped - maybe.  Not probable, but possible.

But flipping on its back during taxi?  I don't buy it. 

And while I feel bad for him and hope he has no serious injuries, that crew chief has one of gnarliest fam ride stories around. 

 Local news reports said 30+ mph winds, almost perpendicular to the runway, at the time of the accident.

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A 30 mph crosswind gust could cause a runway departure.  If the grass on the side of the runway wasn't level then that would cause the far side to dip while the crosswinds lifted the other wing.  The wind could then continue to lift the raised wing further and maybe flip it.

Not saying this is what happened, we'll hear it from the AIB/SIB, but the theory is possible. 

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On 6/26/2017 at 9:53 PM, SocialD said:

 

If I were a bettin man, I would guess hydroplaning mixed with winds.  There were some wicked downpours/storms rolling through the Dayton area that day.  Either way we'll know when the SIB/AIB are released.  Glad no-one was seriously hurt.    

I cant find it now, but there is a video floating around somewhere, showing the jet in two peices on a flatbed.  They cut it between the two cockpits.  

 

Speculation from an eyewitness it was a hydroplane. WHIOTV7's website

Edited by universal
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https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/11/03/thunderbirds-jet-landed-too-fast-skidded-off-wet-runway-in-june-crash/

"A Thunderbirds F-16D crashed in June when it landed too fast, skidded off a wet runway and overturned in the grass, injuring the pilot, according to an Accident Investigation Board report released Friday."

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The runway is 12.6K, it says he couldn't see outside so had to use on board instruments.  Aside from landing with no vis (illegal) and trying to CAT III an F-16 (illegal), he should have landed on the captain bars leaving him much more than 6K to go on touchdown.  

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The runway is 12.6K, it says he couldn't see outside so had to use on board instruments.  Aside from landing with no vis (illegal) and trying to CAT III an F-16 (illegal), he should have landed on the captain bars leaving him much more than 6K to go on touchdown.  


Or just diverted.
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29 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

 


Or just diverted.

 

It's not like there was an Air Force base with a 12K' runway near the Dayton airport or anything...

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Trend item: dudes are afraid to divert, go around, or eject.  First step is admitting we have a human factors problem...several years ago I randomly had a bro in the backseat during a sortie (he MND'd, decided back seat was better than queep); a standard shitty wx approach to mins with rain/wet runway and extreme canopy pooling - it was his, "we just passed the 5 board" that made me go around.  I was fixated on trying to land and time distortion made me feel like we couldn't possibly be more than 1.5K to 2K down the 10K runway.  No good divert and the next try he called my flare off the RALT.  Only time in my life I was glad to be in a D-model.

Point is, canopy pooling is a real bitch and we have a cultural problem to some extent regarding decisions to divert, go around, or eject.  Now that I"m more experienced I feel like it's less of an issue personally (but not totally gone), but I see it fairly strong in the younger guys - it's a thing.  Monday morning QB'ing is great and all, but it's better to acknowledge this issue and be proactive in teaching the less experienced to understand when to divert, go around, or eject and more importantly, make them truly feel such actions are the right thing and not looked down upon. 

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Diverting is my chance to buy drinks for the bro's on the GOVTCC, and get shorts from the BX, so basically a win/win.  I'll tell a story about @ViperStud soon about diverting......asshole.

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1 hour ago, brabus said:

Trend item: dudes are afraid to divert, go around, or eject.  First step is admitting we have a human factors problem...several years ago I randomly had a bro in the backseat during a sortie (he MND'd, decided back seat was better than queep); a standard shitty wx approach to mins with rain/wet runway and extreme canopy pooling - it was his, "we just passed the 5 board" that made me go around.  I was fixated on trying to land and time distortion made me feel like we couldn't possibly be more than 1.5K to 2K down the 10K runway.  No good divert and the next try he called my flare off the RALT.  Only time in my life I was glad to be in a D-model.

Point is, canopy pooling is a real bitch and we have a cultural problem to some extent regarding decisions to divert, go around, or eject.  Now that I"m more experienced I feel like it's less of an issue personally (but not totally gone), but I see it fairly strong in the younger guys - it's a thing.  Monday morning QB'ing is great and all, but it's better to acknowledge this issue and be proactive in teaching the less experienced to understand when to divert, go around, or eject and more importantly, make them truly feel such actions are the right thing and not looked down upon. 

this is an all around excellent post

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9 hours ago, matmacwc said:

Diverting is my chance to buy drinks for the bro's on the GOVTCC, and get shorts from the BX, so basically a win/win.  I'll tell a story about @ViperStud soon about diverting......asshole.

If my flight lead was worth a shit there would have been no issues that day. 

:beer:

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13 hours ago, brabus said:

Trend item: dudes are afraid to divert, go around, or eject.  First step is admitting we have a human factors problem...several years ago I randomly had a bro in the backseat during a sortie (he MND'd, decided back seat was better than queep); a standard shitty wx approach to mins with rain/wet runway and extreme canopy pooling - it was his, "we just passed the 5 board" that made me go around.  I was fixated on trying to land and time distortion made me feel like we couldn't possibly be more than 1.5K to 2K down the 10K runway.  No good divert and the next try he called my flare off the RALT.  Only time in my life I was glad to be in a D-model.

Point is, canopy pooling is a real bitch and we have a cultural problem to some extent regarding decisions to divert, go around, or eject.  Now that I"m more experienced I feel like it's less of an issue personally (but not totally gone), but I see it fairly strong in the younger guys - it's a thing.  Monday morning QB'ing is great and all, but it's better to acknowledge this issue and be proactive in teaching the less experienced to understand when to divert, go around, or eject and more importantly, make them truly feel such actions are the right thing and not looked down upon. 

Does the community adhere to the speed reference of twice the board number for go around? I.E., if you are greater than 100 kts at the 5 board, go around? It's pretty standard in the USN/USMC Hornet community and has probably saved more than a few dudes. We've got several mishaps on the books where guys disregarded it for one reason or another.

Sorry - Canopy pooling?

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Due to the way the air flows around the canopy, a low pressure area is created on the front of the canopy, right where you'd be trying to look for the runway when flying an ILS, which cause water to just build up and pool there.

 

At least I think that's the science behind it but what it comes down to is it looks like driving through the rain with no windshield wipers on your car.

 

But it doesn't always happen, not sure what other CFs need to be present.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, ViperStud said:

If my flight lead was worth a shit there would have been no issues that day. 

:beer:

If my wingman could do a proper post flight walk around he wouldn't have been stuck either.  

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6 hours ago, Kenny Powers said:

Due to the way the air flows around the canopy, a low pressure area is created on the front of the canopy, right where you'd be trying to look for the runway when flying an ILS, which cause water to just build up and pool there.

 

At least I think that's the science behind it but what it comes down to is it looks like driving through the rain with no windshield wipers on your car.

 

But it doesn't always happen, not sure what other CFs need to be present.

The IFF interrogators definitely don't help ,and yes, the ThunderBirds have them.

Edited by matmacwc

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2 hours ago, Kenny Powers said:

Go with story.

Lamest divert story ever, bad weather and my jet broke. I think he's just getting bored in his old age. 

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2 hours ago, ViperStud said:

Lamest divert story ever, bad weather and my jet broke. I think he's just getting bored in his old age. 

Improper application of 10% rule.  Go around for another attempt.

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11 hours ago, Kenny Powers said:

Due to the way the air flows around the canopy, a low pressure area is created on the front of the canopy, right where you'd be trying to look for the runway when flying an ILS, which cause water to just build up and pool there.

 

At least I think that's the science behind it but what it comes down to is it looks like driving through the rain with no windshield wipers on your car.

 

But it doesn't always happen, not sure what other CFs need to be present.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also depends on MX actually polishing the canopy. Their trend has been to skip that step

I’ve had canopy pooling as wide as the HUD. I’ve heard it can go about 30 degrees or so

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